Knicks-Jazz PG Thread

[Greenie]

KP needs to dedicate this summer to working on the art of rebounding and playing physical in the paint. As well adding strength he also needs to start getting used to the physicality and contact inside the paint. If he is going to be our Center of the future then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical in the paint. I can't watch him get tossed around and shoved to the ground anymore, it's embarrassing.

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

Gobert's lack of strength does affect him here too, though, as he gets moved around rather easily inside the paint, not always being able to hold his ground. He lacks some intensity and toughness on this end of the floor, sometimes allowing himself to get pushed around inside and not offering enough resistance. His high center of gravity and average balance makes it difficult for him to bend his knees and stay in front of opposing slashers attacking him off the dribble.
Just an average rebounder on the defensive end, Gobert shows solid timing boxing out his man, but tends to get pushed around and lets smaller opponents wrestle rebounds away from him. His 5.7 defensive rebounds per-40 is a fairly pedestrian rate and something he'll have to improve on to see minutes in the NBA - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gobert-5878/ ©DraftExpress

From Gobert's scouting report on DraftExpress
I'm not overly concerned about KP's strength and physicality, but it is evident he'll need to work on that part over the next couple years

All of that spoke to strength. They flat out said KP doesn't like being in the post. He gives it up easy. He does it right now.

Watch on YouTube

start at 7:15

[HEZI]

KP needs to dedicate this summer to working on the art of rebounding and playing physical in the paint. As well adding strength he also needs to start getting used to the physicality and contact inside the paint. If he is going to be our Center of the future then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical in the paint. I can't watch him get tossed around and shoved to the ground anymore, it's embarrassing.

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

No he needs to work hard on his weaknesses because if he just tried to perfect his strengths then he will forever be a one dimensional player who is a tweener. If he's going to be groomed into a Center then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical on the inside. Even as a PF he needs to be able to play on the inside and grab boards. He's just going to have to work backwards unlike the traditional bigs who have developed inside the paint habits and now began expanding their game to the perimeter, he will have to work backwards and develop big man habits in the paint.

[Phish Tank]

KP should look at Gobert as an example of building up strength. Gobert isn't huge either, but look how much of a presence he was tonight


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It's a matter of will. Even when Gobert was smaller he was an inside guy. That's always been his game though. He's never been finesse.

Partially. He'll still need strength even as a finesse player. He can't be this lanky for his entire career.

I used Gobert as an example because he's probably only 245-250lbs max. He didn't become huge like Dwight or the others.

[Greenie]

KP needs to dedicate this summer to working on the art of rebounding and playing physical in the paint. As well adding strength he also needs to start getting used to the physicality and contact inside the paint. If he is going to be our Center of the future then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical in the paint. I can't watch him get tossed around and shoved to the ground anymore, it's embarrassing.

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

No he needs to work hard on his weaknesses because if he just tried to perfect his strengths then he will forever be a one dimensional player who is a tweener. If he's going to be groomed into a Center then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical on the inside. Even as a PF he needs to be able to play on the inside and grab boards. He's just going to have to work backwards unlike the traditional bigs who have developed inside the paint habits and now began expanding their game to the perimeter, he will have to work backwards and develop big man habits in the paint.

[Greenie]

KP should look at Gobert as an example of building up strength. Gobert isn't huge either, but look how much of a presence he was tonight


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It's a matter of will. Even when Gobert was smaller he was an inside guy. That's always been his game though. He's never been finesse.

Partially. He'll still need strength even as a finesse player. He can't be this lanky for his entire career.

I used Gobert as an example because he's probably only 245-250lbs max. He didn't become huge like Dwight or the others.

true

[DOT]

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

Gobert's lack of strength does affect him here too, though, as he gets moved around rather easily inside the paint, not always being able to hold his ground. He lacks some intensity and toughness on this end of the floor, sometimes allowing himself to get pushed around inside and not offering enough resistance. His high center of gravity and average balance makes it difficult for him to bend his knees and stay in front of opposing slashers attacking him off the dribble.
Just an average rebounder on the defensive end, Gobert shows solid timing boxing out his man, but tends to get pushed around and lets smaller opponents wrestle rebounds away from him. His 5.7 defensive rebounds per-40 is a fairly pedestrian rate and something he'll have to improve on to see minutes in the NBA - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gobert-5878/ ©DraftExpress

From Gobert's scouting report on DraftExpress
I'm not overly concerned about KP's strength and physicality, but it is evident he'll need to work on that part over the next couple years

All of that spoke to strength. They flat out said KP doesn't like being in the post. He gives it up easy. He does it right now.

Watch on YouTube

start at 7:15

He gives it up a lot cause he's weak. He'll never be elite at being a physical paint player, just cause he doesn't have the frame for it, but he should be able to at least hold his own in a few years. He'll grow into his body, it just takes some time

[Greenie]

From Gobert's scouting report on DraftExpress
I'm not overly concerned about KP's strength and physicality, but it is evident he'll need to work on that part over the next couple years

All of that spoke to strength. They flat out said KP doesn't like being in the post. He gives it up easy. He does it right now.

Watch on YouTube

start at 7:15

He gives it up a lot cause he's weak. He'll never be elite at being a physical paint player, just cause he doesn't have the frame for it, but he should be able to at least hold his own in a few years. He'll grow into his body, it just takes some time

"I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint."

[Oscirus]

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

Gobert's lack of strength does affect him here too, though, as he gets moved around rather easily inside the paint, not always being able to hold his ground. He lacks some intensity and toughness on this end of the floor, sometimes allowing himself to get pushed around inside and not offering enough resistance. His high center of gravity and average balance makes it difficult for him to bend his knees and stay in front of opposing slashers attacking him off the dribble.
Just an average rebounder on the defensive end, Gobert shows solid timing boxing out his man, but tends to get pushed around and lets smaller opponents wrestle rebounds away from him. His 5.7 defensive rebounds per-40 is a fairly pedestrian rate and something he'll have to improve on to see minutes in the NBA - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gobert-5878/ ©DraftExpress

From Gobert's scouting report on DraftExpress
I'm not overly concerned about KP's strength and physicality, but it is evident he'll need to work on that part over the next couple years

All of that spoke to strength. They flat out said KP doesn't like being in the post. He gives it up easy. He does it right now.

Watch on YouTube

start at 7:15

He doesn't give it up anywhere near as bad as he does in that video. Yea he tends to get pushed around at times, but he fights down there and he definitely doesn't avoid contact. Not to mention if anything he's gotten smarter as of late and has started using Chandler tap outs for rebounds he can't get to.

[Greenie]

From Gobert's scouting report on DraftExpress
I'm not overly concerned about KP's strength and physicality, but it is evident he'll need to work on that part over the next couple years

All of that spoke to strength. They flat out said KP doesn't like being in the post. He gives it up easy. He does it right now.

Watch on YouTube

start at 7:15

He doesn't give it up anywhere near as bad as he does in that video. Yea he tends to get pushed around at times, but he fights down there and he definitely doesn't avoid contact. Not to mention if anything he's gotten smarter as of late and has started using Chandler tap outs for rebounds he can't get to.

Dude gets pushed out of the post by PG's.

As stated before I don't see him ever being a post guy and I'm OK with that.

That video dates back to 2012 and KP still has the same issues. It is what it is. He's a finesse big. You know there really isn't anything wrong with that right?

[K_ick_God]

This is the stuff I don't get. Towns is averaging a block a game and KP is averaging 2 a game. Cool. Neither are great defenders, but what makes KP defensive ceiling higher? KP is a slightly better shooter, I agree. Towns is in a whole 'nother class when it comes to offensive game though and he's a rebounding monster. The guy is averaging 25/12/3, this is why it seems like people are hard on KP because people want to sit here and compare him to players he shouldn't be compared to. Carmelo is a good player and when you compare him to Lebron it's ridiculous. KP is a good player, but even mentioning him with Towns and AD it's just ridiculous.

Towns' offense is incredibly well developed for such a young kid. KP's is not yet. But it's not a crime against humanity to consider and compare them. That's what I don't get myself lol.

AD, I really see no reason to deify the guy. He's been on losing team after losing team. There's nothing so impressive about that. Just his stats.

You're going to hold AD team losing against him like he didn't have a trash roster around him his whole career? I mean even now we have a better team than them and they have a better record than us in the West. Come on But with the eye test, he doesn't scream greatness to you?

Great production, great skills, which are great but only go so far. Great career? Not really. You can't really have a great career without at least regularly making the playoffs and getting somewhere.

Here again is the softening of the world. Everything is numbers and video games.

Tony Parker has had a greater career than Chris Paul and to me it's not even close.

[Oscirus]

All of that spoke to strength. They flat out said KP doesn't like being in the post. He gives it up easy. He does it right now.

Watch on YouTube

start at 7:15

He doesn't give it up anywhere near as bad as he does in that video. Yea he tends to get pushed around at times, but he fights down there and he definitely doesn't avoid contact. Not to mention if anything he's gotten smarter as of late and has started using Chandler tap outs for rebounds he can't get to.

Dude gets pushed out of the post by PG's.

As stated before I don't see him ever being a post guy and I'm OK with that.

That video dates back to 2012 and KP still has the same issues. It is what it is. He's a finesse big. You know there really isn't anything wrong with that right?

He doesn't have the same issues as in the video. If you want to say he has strength issues, fine. But in that video, he wasn't even trying in the plays that they highlighted.
I'm fine with his being a finesse type player, hell, I've repeatedly said that he needs bruisers down low to do the dirty work, but this theory that he doesn't like the phisicality down low is false. He engages down there just fine.

[K_ick_God]

Only Gobert and I think one other player, have a lower opponent FG% in the paint.

KP is an elite rim protector, I've stated that 1000 times. What's your point?

What's your point? If he's an elite rim protector that speaks volumes about him as a defender. You're contradicting yourself. Rim protection isn't just blocking shots. It's shutting down the paint. The stat yankeeknicksfan references shows that is exactly what he does. It's the most important defensive quality for a big man, followed by pick and roll defense.

He's saying that he's an elite rim protector and then told me that there's no sign of him playing team defense.

Rim protection is usually team defense itself lol. He's not just rim protecting his own man's shots is he?

lol

[Kinglee]

KP is an elite rim protector, I've stated that 1000 times. What's your point?

What's your point? If he's an elite rim protector that speaks volumes about him as a defender. You're contradicting yourself. Rim protection isn't just blocking shots. It's shutting down the paint. The stat yankeeknicksfan references shows that is exactly what he does. It's the most important defensive quality for a big man, followed by pick and roll defense.

He's saying that he's an elite rim protector and then told me that there's no sign of him playing team defense.

Rim protection is usually team defense itself lol. He's not just rim protecting his own man's shots is he?

lol

Every shot blocker is a great team defender? Someone blocking 2 out of 80+ shots make them a great team defender? Really?

[Oscirus]

What's your point? If he's an elite rim protector that speaks volumes about him as a defender. You're contradicting yourself. Rim protection isn't just blocking shots. It's shutting down the paint. The stat yankeeknicksfan references shows that is exactly what he does. It's the most important defensive quality for a big man, followed by pick and roll defense.

He's saying that he's an elite rim protector and then told me that there's no sign of him playing team defense.

Rim protection is usually team defense itself lol. He's not just rim protecting his own man's shots is he?

lol

Every shot blocker is a great team defender? Someone blocking 2 out of 80+ shots make them a great team defender? Really?

Despite your attempts at simplification, rim protection is not just blocking shots.

[Kinglee]

Towns' offense is incredibly well developed for such a young kid. KP's is not yet. But it's not a crime against humanity to consider and compare them. That's what I don't get myself lol.

AD, I really see no reason to deify the guy. He's been on losing team after losing team. There's nothing so impressive about that. Just his stats.

You're going to hold AD team losing against him like he didn't have a trash roster around him his whole career? I mean even now we have a better team than them and they have a better record than us in the West. Come on But with the eye test, he doesn't scream greatness to you?

Great production, great skills, which are great but only go so far. Great career? Not really. You can't really have a great career without at least regularly making the playoffs and getting somewhere.

Here again is the softening of the world. Everything is numbers and video games.

Tony Parker has had a greater career than Chris Paul and to me it's not even close.

Championships mean your career is better than another player who has more individual accomplishments? What? Horry is more accomplished than Barkley? Parker name is going to come up in greatest point guard discussions over Paul and Stockton? This is ridiculous. You take Bosh career over Karl Malone?

Maybe I'm on my own, but if I'm an athlete, of course I want to win a championship. That's what you play the game for, but I also want to be known as one of the best to ever play the game. 12-15 players a year win a championship to be honest. Doesn't Mean all of them are great they were just part of a championship team.

[K_ick_God]

He's saying that he's an elite rim protector and then told me that there's no sign of him playing team defense.

Rim protection is usually team defense itself lol. He's not just rim protecting his own man's shots is he?

lol

Every shot blocker is a great team defender? Someone blocking 2 out of 80+ shots make them a great team defender? Really?

Despite your attempts at simplification, rim protection is not just blocking shots.

Right, and it requires reading team D. It is itself (often) help defense, a/k/a team defense. Just before he said there's no sign that KP has team defensive awareness. Then calls him an elite rim protector. Legit gotcha.

[Kinglee]

Every shot blocker is a great team defender? Someone blocking 2 out of 80+ shots make them a great team defender? Really?

Despite your attempts at simplification, rim protection is not just blocking shots.

Right, and it requires reading team D. It is itself (often) help defense, a/k/a team defense. Just before he said there's no sign that KP has team defensive awareness. Then calls him an elite rim protector. Legit gotcha.

Never said he didn't have defensive awareness either. He flat out doesn't play defense unless it comes to blocking shots in the paint which he is great at. He doesn't do good on pick and rolls, closing out or anything else on defense. So my point stands. Gobbert is a great team defender and man defender. Camby was an elite rim protector on defense, but Kmart was a great man defender and team defender. It's a difference.

Y'all can keep trying to break down words to try to get ya point across, but I'm not dumb, I know what I'm stating.

Draymond Green I wouldn't say is a rim protector, but he's a great team defender as well, are we going to say KP is a better team defender than Green? Let's be realistic.

[K_ick_God]

You're going to hold AD team losing against him like he didn't have a trash roster around him his whole career? I mean even now we have a better team than them and they have a better record than us in the West. Come on But with the eye test, he doesn't scream greatness to you?

Great production, great skills, which are great but only go so far. Great career? Not really. You can't really have a great career without at least regularly making the playoffs and getting somewhere.

Here again is the softening of the world. Everything is numbers and video games.

Tony Parker has had a greater career than Chris Paul and to me it's not even close.

Championships mean your career is better than another player who has more individual accomplishments? What? Horry is more accomplished than Barkley? Parker name is going to come up in greatest point guard discussions over Paul and Stockton? This is ridiculous. You take Bosh career over Karl Malone?

Maybe I'm on my own, but if I'm an athlete, of course I want to win a championship. That's what you play the game for, but I also want to be known as one of the best to ever play the game. 12-15 players a year win a championship to be honest. Doesn't Mean all of them are great they were just part of a championship team.

Championships matter a lot, but they're not everything. Losing a lot (none of the guys above you mentioned were consistent losers) matters a lot. A lot a lot. Career loser matters. No 2 ways about it.

Maybe the HOF is happy to accept those guys as great, great players. KnicksGod's HOF includes winners.

Winning is the only thing that matters -- it's the whole purpose of the sport. You don't have to win multiple or even one title. It happens. But if your teams suck year after year, even if it's bad luck, no I don't consider you a great player. I consider you a player with great skills who either failed or never got good enough teammates to succeed. Bad luck maybe. Or maybe Anthony Davis is not as good as you think he is.

DeMarcus Cousins has great stats too, and you referenced him earlier so I can tell you like him. Guess what? The dude is a bum and will never amount to anything.

[Yankeeknickfan]

This is the stuff I don't get. Towns is averaging a block a game and KP is averaging 2 a game. Cool. Neither are great defenders, but what makes KP defensive ceiling higher? KP is a slightly better shooter, I agree. Towns is in a whole 'nother class when it comes to offensive game though and he's a rebounding monster. The guy is averaging 25/12/3, this is why it seems like people are hard on KP because people want to sit here and compare him to players he shouldn't be compared to. Carmelo is a good player and when you compare him to Lebron it's ridiculous. KP is a good player, but even mentioning him with Towns and AD it's just ridiculous.

Only Gobert and I think one other player, have a lower opponent FG% in the paint.

KP is an elite rim protector, I've stated that 1000 times. What's your point?

weren't you arguing against his defense? You make no sense

[Kinglee]

Great production, great skills, which are great but only go so far. Great career? Not really. You can't really have a great career without at least regularly making the playoffs and getting somewhere.

Here again is the softening of the world. Everything is numbers and video games.

Tony Parker has had a greater career than Chris Paul and to me it's not even close.

Championships mean your career is better than another player who has more individual accomplishments? What? Horry is more accomplished than Barkley? Parker name is going to come up in greatest point guard discussions over Paul and Stockton? This is ridiculous. You take Bosh career over Karl Malone?

Maybe I'm on my own, but if I'm an athlete, of course I want to win a championship. That's what you play the game for, but I also want to be known as one of the best to ever play the game. 12-15 players a year win a championship to be honest. Doesn't Mean all of them are great they were just part of a championship team.

Championships matter a lot, but they're not everything. Losing a lot (none of the guys above you mentioned were consistent losers) matters a lot. A lot a lot. Career loser matters. No 2 ways about it.

Maybe the HOF is happy to accept those guys as great, great players. KnicksGod's HOF includes winners.

Winning is the only thing that matters -- it's the whole purpose of the sport. You don't have to win multiple or even one title. It happens. But if your teams suck year after year, even if it's bad luck, no I don't consider you a great player. I consider you a player with great skills who either failed or never got good enough teammates to succeed. Bad luck maybe. Or maybe Anthony Davis is not as good as you think he is.

DeMarcus Cousins has great stats too, and you referenced him earlier so I can tell you like him. Guess what? The dude is a bum and will never amount to anything.

Cousins is widely known to be one of the two best big men in the league along with AD and AD is widely known as a top 10 player in the league. You can live in whatever world you want to live in, but KP isn't on their level.

And you just said you don't have to win one title, but you consider winners in your HOF. Cp3 is consistently in the playoffs, is he not? The teams he usually lose to are flat out better than his, are they not? So I'm lost on what you're trying to say.