Knicks-Jazz PG Thread

[Greenie]

He doesn't give it up anywhere near as bad as he does in that video. Yea he tends to get pushed around at times, but he fights down there and he definitely doesn't avoid contact. Not to mention if anything he's gotten smarter as of late and has started using Chandler tap outs for rebounds he can't get to.

Dude gets pushed out of the post by PG's.

As stated before I don't see him ever being a post guy and I'm OK with that.

That video dates back to 2012 and KP still has the same issues. It is what it is. He's a finesse big. You know there really isn't anything wrong with that right?

He doesn't have the same issues as in the video. If you want to say he has strength issues, fine. But in that video, he wasn't even trying in the plays that they highlighted.
I'm fine with his being a finesse type player, hell, I've repeatedly said that he needs bruisers down low to do the dirty work, but this theory that he doesn't like the phisicality down low is false. He engages down there just fine.

How does he engage down there just fine when he allows weaker players to push him out of position on a regular basis?

[K_ick_God]

Only Gobert and I think one other player, have a lower opponent FG% in the paint.

KP is an elite rim protector, I've stated that 1000 times. What's your point?

weren't you arguing against his defense? You make no sense

Basically saying he's an elite rim protector but nowhere as far as team D. So basically like saying a guy is an elite shooter but not a good offensive player.

[Kinglee]

KP is an elite rim protector, I've stated that 1000 times. What's your point?

weren't you arguing against his defense? You make no sense

Basically saying he's an elite rim protector but nowhere as far as team D. So basically like saying a guy is an elite shooter but not a good offensive player.

Yes, Novak was an elite shooter and not a good offensive player. Yes, you're 100% right. You see it's possible. Thank you for making my point. Case in point that playoff series against I believe the Heat where he was scared ****.

[Greenie]

Great production, great skills, which are great but only go so far. Great career? Not really. You can't really have a great career without at least regularly making the playoffs and getting somewhere.

Here again is the softening of the world. Everything is numbers and video games.

Tony Parker has had a greater career than Chris Paul and to me it's not even close.

Championships mean your career is better than another player who has more individual accomplishments? What? Horry is more accomplished than Barkley? Parker name is going to come up in greatest point guard discussions over Paul and Stockton? This is ridiculous. You take Bosh career over Karl Malone?

Maybe I'm on my own, but if I'm an athlete, of course I want to win a championship. That's what you play the game for, but I also want to be known as one of the best to ever play the game. 12-15 players a year win a championship to be honest. Doesn't Mean all of them are great they were just part of a championship team.

Championships matter a lot, but they're not everything. Losing a lot (none of the guys above you mentioned were consistent losers) matters a lot. A lot a lot. Career loser matters. No 2 ways about it.

Maybe the HOF is happy to accept those guys as great, great players. KnicksGod's HOF includes winners.

Winning is the only thing that matters -- it's the whole purpose of the sport. You don't have to win multiple or even one title. It happens. But if your teams suck year after year, even if it's bad luck, no I don't consider you a great player. I consider you a player with great skills who either failed or never got good enough teammates to succeed. Bad luck maybe. Or maybe Anthony Davis is not as good as you think he is.

DeMarcus Cousins has great stats too, and you referenced him earlier so I can tell you like him. Guess what? The dude is a bum and will never amount to anything.

KG, a fans HOF doesn't matter. People really need to take into account the actual team aspect of basketball. Tell me AD's best teammate in NO? Cousins? They play the same position and don't fit. Before Cousins? Jrue Holiday? That's a problem.

[Oscirus]

Despite your attempts at simplification, rim protection is not just blocking shots.

Right, and it requires reading team D. It is itself (often) help defense, a/k/a team defense. Just before he said there's no sign that KP has team defensive awareness. Then calls him an elite rim protector. Legit gotcha.

Never said he didn't have defensive awareness either. He flat out doesn't play defense unless it comes to blocking shots in the paint which he is great at. He doesn't do good on pick and rolls, closing out or anything else on defense. So my point stands. Gobbert is a great team defender and man defender. Camby was an elite rim protector on defense, but Kmart was a great man defender and team defender. It's a difference.

Y'all can keep trying to break down words to try to get ya point across, but I'm not dumb, I know what I'm stating.

Draymond Green I wouldn't say is a rim protector, but he's a great team defender as well, are we going to say KP is a better team defender than Green? Let's be realistic.

He doesn't do good on closing out now? Now, you're just being willfully ignorant for the sake of talking ****.

One of the league leaders in shots defended(not blocked mind you, defended) but yea all he does on defense is block shots.

[K_ick_God]

Championships mean your career is better than another player who has more individual accomplishments? What? Horry is more accomplished than Barkley? Parker name is going to come up in greatest point guard discussions over Paul and Stockton? This is ridiculous. You take Bosh career over Karl Malone?

Maybe I'm on my own, but if I'm an athlete, of course I want to win a championship. That's what you play the game for, but I also want to be known as one of the best to ever play the game. 12-15 players a year win a championship to be honest. Doesn't Mean all of them are great they were just part of a championship team.

Championships matter a lot, but they're not everything. Losing a lot (none of the guys above you mentioned were consistent losers) matters a lot. A lot a lot. Career loser matters. No 2 ways about it.

Maybe the HOF is happy to accept those guys as great, great players. KnicksGod's HOF includes winners.

Winning is the only thing that matters -- it's the whole purpose of the sport. You don't have to win multiple or even one title. It happens. But if your teams suck year after year, even if it's bad luck, no I don't consider you a great player. I consider you a player with great skills who either failed or never got good enough teammates to succeed. Bad luck maybe. Or maybe Anthony Davis is not as good as you think he is.

DeMarcus Cousins has great stats too, and you referenced him earlier so I can tell you like him. Guess what? The dude is a bum and will never amount to anything.

Cousins is widely known to be one of the two best big men in the league along with AD and AD is widely known as a top 10 player in the league. You can live in whatever world you want to live in, but KP isn't on their level.

And you just said you don't have to win one title, but you consider winners in your HOF. Cp3 is consistently in the playoffs, is he not? The teams he usually lose to are flat out better than his, are they not? So I'm lost on what you're trying to say.

Good, I'm glad you've come clean. You think Cousins is great. I don't think individual talents or being able to score the ball, or rack up numbers, makes you great.

I think you thinking Cousins is great says a lot. Cousins will never be one of the centerpieces of a great team, and he'll very, very likely not adapt his game to be useful to his team as a piece less than one of the centerpieces.

A.D., I'm more sympathetic too. I like him, a lot in fact. He's off the charts talented and productive. He's probably a victim of bad luck. But greatness is about rising above your bad luck too. I really don't know what A.D. would do with better teammates. How do you not know that he's just a guy who can put up a lot of production on a bad team as the only really good player? You can like someone and think they are very good at basketball without giving out your greatness card like it's a "Have a good day." Greatness is not a stat line to me.

I don't bend on a knee in front of CP3 and A.D. because I think they've both underperformed their productivity and talent.

As you hopefully know*, you are better off getting fewer points and winning games, and you are better off winning big payoff games than regular season games. All things that a guy like Tony Parker can say about his incredible career. Paul Pierce had a greater career than Melo too.

*Unfortunately I don't really think you know, because you think Cousins is so great which is LOL.

[Yankeeknickfan]

weren't you arguing against his defense? You make no sense

Basically saying he's an elite rim protector but nowhere as far as team D. So basically like saying a guy is an elite shooter but not a good offensive player.

Yes, Novak was an elite shooter and not a good offensive player. Yes, you're 100% right. You see it's possible. Thank you for making my point. Case in point that playoff series against I believe the Heat where he was scared ****.

I get what you mean, but an elite rim protector is closer to a great defensive player, then a good shooter is to a great offensive player.

[Kinglee]

Championships mean your career is better than another player who has more individual accomplishments? What? Horry is more accomplished than Barkley? Parker name is going to come up in greatest point guard discussions over Paul and Stockton? This is ridiculous. You take Bosh career over Karl Malone?

Maybe I'm on my own, but if I'm an athlete, of course I want to win a championship. That's what you play the game for, but I also want to be known as one of the best to ever play the game. 12-15 players a year win a championship to be honest. Doesn't Mean all of them are great they were just part of a championship team.

Championships matter a lot, but they're not everything. Losing a lot (none of the guys above you mentioned were consistent losers) matters a lot. A lot a lot. Career loser matters. No 2 ways about it.

Maybe the HOF is happy to accept those guys as great, great players. KnicksGod's HOF includes winners.

Winning is the only thing that matters -- it's the whole purpose of the sport. You don't have to win multiple or even one title. It happens. But if your teams suck year after year, even if it's bad luck, no I don't consider you a great player. I consider you a player with great skills who either failed or never got good enough teammates to succeed. Bad luck maybe. Or maybe Anthony Davis is not as good as you think he is.

DeMarcus Cousins has great stats too, and you referenced him earlier so I can tell you like him. Guess what? The dude is a bum and will never amount to anything.

KG, a fans HOF doesn't matter. People really need to take into account the actual team aspect of basketball. Tell me AD's best teammate in NO? Cousins? They play the same position and don't fit. Before Cousins? Jrue Holiday? That's a problem.

It's like the backlash going at the HOF committee that's keeping TO out the playoffs. In a team sport a player can't control what the other players do. Bottom line is TO caught the balls thrown to him and did his job as a wide receiver. Him not winning a championship isn't because of him. Same goes for Moss, who played on the team that almost went perfect. The Giants miracle doesn't mean Randy isn't a Hall Of Fame player because he lost a championship on a miracle.

Put Parker the same exact player he has been on the Clippers and CP3 on the Spurs, can Parker do with the Clippers Paul has done? And can Paul do what Parker has done with the Spurs? Like let's be realistic.

[Greenie]

Right, and it requires reading team D. It is itself (often) help defense, a/k/a team defense. Just before he said there's no sign that KP has team defensive awareness. Then calls him an elite rim protector. Legit gotcha.

Never said he didn't have defensive awareness either. He flat out doesn't play defense unless it comes to blocking shots in the paint which he is great at. He doesn't do good on pick and rolls, closing out or anything else on defense. So my point stands. Gobbert is a great team defender and man defender. Camby was an elite rim protector on defense, but Kmart was a great man defender and team defender. It's a difference.

Y'all can keep trying to break down words to try to get ya point across, but I'm not dumb, I know what I'm stating.

Draymond Green I wouldn't say is a rim protector, but he's a great team defender as well, are we going to say KP is a better team defender than Green? Let's be realistic.

He doesn't do good on closing out now? Now, you're just being willfully ignorant for the sake of talking ****.

One of the league leaders in shots defended(not blocked mind you, defended) but yea all he does on defense is block shots.

Wow.

You're going to sit here and tell me KP is good at closing out on shooters?

[Kinglee]

Championships matter a lot, but they're not everything. Losing a lot (none of the guys above you mentioned were consistent losers) matters a lot. A lot a lot. Career loser matters. No 2 ways about it.

Maybe the HOF is happy to accept those guys as great, great players. KnicksGod's HOF includes winners.

Winning is the only thing that matters -- it's the whole purpose of the sport. You don't have to win multiple or even one title. It happens. But if your teams suck year after year, even if it's bad luck, no I don't consider you a great player. I consider you a player with great skills who either failed or never got good enough teammates to succeed. Bad luck maybe. Or maybe Anthony Davis is not as good as you think he is.

DeMarcus Cousins has great stats too, and you referenced him earlier so I can tell you like him. Guess what? The dude is a bum and will never amount to anything.

Cousins is widely known to be one of the two best big men in the league along with AD and AD is widely known as a top 10 player in the league. You can live in whatever world you want to live in, but KP isn't on their level.

And you just said you don't have to win one title, but you consider winners in your HOF. Cp3 is consistently in the playoffs, is he not? The teams he usually lose to are flat out better than his, are they not? So I'm lost on what you're trying to say.

Good, I'm glad you've come clean. You think Cousins is great. I don't think individual talents or being able to score the ball, or rack up numbers, makes you great.

I think you thinking Cousins is great says a lot. Cousins will never be one of the centerpieces of a great team, and he'll very, very likely not adapt his game to be useful to his team as a piece less than one of the centerpieces.

A.D., I'm more sympathetic too. I like him, a lot in fact. He's off the charts talented and productive. He's probably a victim of bad luck. But greatness is about rising above your bad luck too. I really don't know what A.D. would do with better teammates. How do you not know that he's just a guy who can put up a lot of production on a bad team as the only really good player? You can like someone and think they are very good at basketball without giving out your greatness card like it's a "Have a good day." Greatness is not a stat line to me.

I don't bend on a knee in front of CP3 and A.D. because I think they've both underperformed their productivity and talent.

As you hopefully know*, you are better off getting fewer points and winning games, and you are better off winning big payoff games than regular season games. All things that a guy like Tony Parker can say about his incredible career. Paul Pierce had a greater career than Melo too.

*Unfortunately I don't really think you know, because you think Cousins is so great which is LOL.

Whatever floats ya boat. Cousins is an unstoppable scorer, this is a fact. Cousins can post up and hit the 3, this is fact. Cousins can take his man off the dribble and even was bringing the ball up the court for the Kings, this is fact. Cousins is a good defender, this is a fact. Cousins teammates all sucked throughout his career, this is fact. Cousins is a great passer, this is fact. And literally everything I just said applies to AD as well, but you're "sympathetic" to him but not Cousins, so that means something?

But because his team sucks in the strong western conference, he's a trash player, but we suppose to praise KP for playing in a weaker conference with All star Carmelo Anthony and we suppose to put him on a pedestal? Dude you can have this argument, I don't even care about it anymore.

[K_ick_God]

Basically saying he's an elite rim protector but nowhere as far as team D. So basically like saying a guy is an elite shooter but not a good offensive player.

Yes, Novak was an elite shooter and not a good offensive player. Yes, you're 100% right. You see it's possible. Thank you for making my point. Case in point that playoff series against I believe the Heat where he was scared ****.

I get what you mean, but an elite rim protector is closer to a great defensive player, then a good shooter is to a great offensive player.

Novak, maybe the one exception to every rule because shooting is the only thing he could do, but really it's silly to call him an elite shooter. He doesn't even get the playing time to take shots, and he can't get off his shot when he does. Except for a half season with the Knicks.

Elite shooters are not elite shooters in practice. They're elite shooters in ummm actual NBA games.

Novak is not an elite shooter anymore than Bo Kimble was. He's playing with words now.

Manute Bol's 7-6 grandmother (was this true?) could probably block shots on the driveway. She was not an elite NBA shotblocker ....

[K_ick_God]

Cousins is widely known to be one of the two best big men in the league along with AD and AD is widely known as a top 10 player in the league. You can live in whatever world you want to live in, but KP isn't on their level.

And you just said you don't have to win one title, but you consider winners in your HOF. Cp3 is consistently in the playoffs, is he not? The teams he usually lose to are flat out better than his, are they not? So I'm lost on what you're trying to say.

Good, I'm glad you've come clean. You think Cousins is great. I don't think individual talents or being able to score the ball, or rack up numbers, makes you great.

I think you thinking Cousins is great says a lot. Cousins will never be one of the centerpieces of a great team, and he'll very, very likely not adapt his game to be useful to his team as a piece less than one of the centerpieces.

A.D., I'm more sympathetic too. I like him, a lot in fact. He's off the charts talented and productive. He's probably a victim of bad luck. But greatness is about rising above your bad luck too. I really don't know what A.D. would do with better teammates. How do you not know that he's just a guy who can put up a lot of production on a bad team as the only really good player? You can like someone and think they are very good at basketball without giving out your greatness card like it's a "Have a good day." Greatness is not a stat line to me.

I don't bend on a knee in front of CP3 and A.D. because I think they've both underperformed their productivity and talent.

As you hopefully know*, you are better off getting fewer points and winning games, and you are better off winning big payoff games than regular season games. All things that a guy like Tony Parker can say about his incredible career. Paul Pierce had a greater career than Melo too.

*Unfortunately I don't really think you know, because you think Cousins is so great which is LOL.

Whatever floats ya boat. Cousins is an unstoppable scorer, this is a fact. Cousins can post up and hit the 3, this is fact. Cousins can take his man off the dribble and even was bringing the ball up the court for the Kings, this is fact. Cousins is a good defender, this is a fact. Cousins teammates all sucked throughout his career, this is fact. Cousins is a great passer, this is fact. And literally everything I just said applies to AD as well, but you're "sympathetic" to him but not Cousins, so that means something?

But because his team sucks in the strong western conference, he's a trash player, but we suppose to praise KP for playing in a weaker conference with All star Carmelo Anthony and we suppose to put him on a pedestal? Dude you can have this argument, I don't even care about it anymore.

I think you've done us all a service by talking about how great Cousins is. Now we know exactly where you're coming from. You value talent and special gifts over all else. You probably think Cousins is greater than Kevin Garnett too. Why not? Cousins is bigger, better off the dribble, overall more talented.

[Greenie]

Basically saying he's an elite rim protector but nowhere as far as team D. So basically like saying a guy is an elite shooter but not a good offensive player.

Yes, Novak was an elite shooter and not a good offensive player. Yes, you're 100% right. You see it's possible. Thank you for making my point. Case in point that playoff series against I believe the Heat where he was scared ****.

I get what you mean, but an elite rim protector is closer to a great defensive player, then a good shooter is to a great offensive player.

No. STAT was a really good shot blocker.
Brook Lopez averages 1.7 per game and we all know he's trash on defense.

Hassan Whiteside averages over 2 blocks per game and sucks on defense too.

[Oscirus]

Dude gets pushed out of the post by PG's.

As stated before I don't see him ever being a post guy and I'm OK with that.

That video dates back to 2012 and KP still has the same issues. It is what it is. He's a finesse big. You know there really isn't anything wrong with that right?

He doesn't have the same issues as in the video. If you want to say he has strength issues, fine. But in that video, he wasn't even trying in the plays that they highlighted.
I'm fine with his being a finesse type player, hell, I've repeatedly said that he needs bruisers down low to do the dirty work, but this theory that he doesn't like the phisicality down low is false. He engages down there just fine.

How does he engage down there just fine when he allows weaker players to push him out of position on a regular basis?

So despite the fact that his post up game wasn't even the thing the video that you posted were referencing we're going with that now? I love that he now just lets himself get pushed around. It's almost as if you haven't heard of a thing called leverage or as if KP isn't a fairly new player learning how to counteract it. Nope he's a weak ass bitch because his post up game doesn't meet your standards right now!

[K_ick_God]

Cousins is widely known to be one of the two best big men in the league along with AD and AD is widely known as a top 10 player in the league. You can live in whatever world you want to live in, but KP isn't on their level.

And you just said you don't have to win one title, but you consider winners in your HOF. Cp3 is consistently in the playoffs, is he not? The teams he usually lose to are flat out better than his, are they not? So I'm lost on what you're trying to say.

Good, I'm glad you've come clean. You think Cousins is great. I don't think individual talents or being able to score the ball, or rack up numbers, makes you great.

I think you thinking Cousins is great says a lot. Cousins will never be one of the centerpieces of a great team, and he'll very, very likely not adapt his game to be useful to his team as a piece less than one of the centerpieces.

A.D., I'm more sympathetic too. I like him, a lot in fact. He's off the charts talented and productive. He's probably a victim of bad luck. But greatness is about rising above your bad luck too. I really don't know what A.D. would do with better teammates. How do you not know that he's just a guy who can put up a lot of production on a bad team as the only really good player? You can like someone and think they are very good at basketball without giving out your greatness card like it's a "Have a good day." Greatness is not a stat line to me.

I don't bend on a knee in front of CP3 and A.D. because I think they've both underperformed their productivity and talent.

As you hopefully know*, you are better off getting fewer points and winning games, and you are better off winning big payoff games than regular season games. All things that a guy like Tony Parker can say about his incredible career. Paul Pierce had a greater career than Melo too.

*Unfortunately I don't really think you know, because you think Cousins is so great which is LOL.

Whatever floats ya boat. Cousins is an unstoppable scorer, this is a fact. Cousins can post up and hit the 3, this is fact. Cousins can take his man off the dribble and even was bringing the ball up the court for the Kings, this is fact. Cousins is a good defender, this is a fact. Cousins teammates all sucked throughout his career, this is fact. Cousins is a great passer, this is fact. And literally everything I just said applies to AD as well, but you're "sympathetic" to him but not Cousins, so that means something?

But because his team sucks in the strong western conference, he's a trash player, but we suppose to praise KP for playing in a weaker conference with All star Carmelo Anthony and we suppose to put him on a pedestal? Dude you can have this argument, I don't even care about it anymore.

Yes it "floats my boat" that A.D. plays intelligently and unselfishly, and doesn't grouse and whine all game long. He's not an immature bozo. And in fact, it says a lot about A.D. that he's been on bad teams and just keeps playing hard. It goes both ways a little -- he's obviously mature and cares, which is great, though I would hope the losing is killing him inside.

Cousins is a quintessential example of a talented player who does nothing, less than nothing, for your team. And you love him. Whatever sinks your boat I guess.

Listen, I know where you stand and you make your case well for the most part. I strongly disagree with the way you evaluate players at the NBA level. I think you're dead wrong pretty much, but no hard feelings.

[Kinglee]

Good, I'm glad you've come clean. You think Cousins is great. I don't think individual talents or being able to score the ball, or rack up numbers, makes you great.

I think you thinking Cousins is great says a lot. Cousins will never be one of the centerpieces of a great team, and he'll very, very likely not adapt his game to be useful to his team as a piece less than one of the centerpieces.

A.D., I'm more sympathetic too. I like him, a lot in fact. He's off the charts talented and productive. He's probably a victim of bad luck. But greatness is about rising above your bad luck too. I really don't know what A.D. would do with better teammates. How do you not know that he's just a guy who can put up a lot of production on a bad team as the only really good player? You can like someone and think they are very good at basketball without giving out your greatness card like it's a "Have a good day." Greatness is not a stat line to me.

I don't bend on a knee in front of CP3 and A.D. because I think they've both underperformed their productivity and talent.

As you hopefully know*, you are better off getting fewer points and winning games, and you are better off winning big payoff games than regular season games. All things that a guy like Tony Parker can say about his incredible career. Paul Pierce had a greater career than Melo too.

*Unfortunately I don't really think you know, because you think Cousins is so great which is LOL.

Whatever floats ya boat. Cousins is an unstoppable scorer, this is a fact. Cousins can post up and hit the 3, this is fact. Cousins can take his man off the dribble and even was bringing the ball up the court for the Kings, this is fact. Cousins is a good defender, this is a fact. Cousins teammates all sucked throughout his career, this is fact. Cousins is a great passer, this is fact. And literally everything I just said applies to AD as well, but you're "sympathetic" to him but not Cousins, so that means something?

But because his team sucks in the strong western conference, he's a trash player, but we suppose to praise KP for playing in a weaker conference with All star Carmelo Anthony and we suppose to put him on a pedestal? Dude you can have this argument, I don't even care about it anymore.

I think you've done us all a service by talking about how great Cousins is. Now we know exactly where you're coming from. You value talent and special gifts over all else. You probably think Cousins is greater than Kevin Garnett too. Why not? Cousins is bigger, better off the dribble, overall more talented.

Yes I do value talent and special gifts, how the hell do you win a championship if your best player isn't talented and special? Detroit is the exception, nor the norm. If a player has special ability, you know how people keep claiming KP has special ability, you build a team around that special ability so they can produce and win games. Garnett is another player who had special gifts and talent and had he not went to Boston he would've never been considered a winner because remember he was struggling to even get out the first round in Minnesota. So if he didn't goto Boston, you would be saying the same thing about him as you said about AD correct? Because you know their games are pretty damn similar, correct?

See how that goes?

[ChaosHamster]

Its still going..

Who`s been convinced by Lee that KP isn't even that good? Anyone?

[blueNorange]

cousins is an unstoppable scorer?

huh? since when?

he has a career ts% of .530 in 7 nba seasons ... he is what he is, and he is many things and unstoppable isn't one of them.

[April madness]

Its still going..

Who`s been convinced by Lee that KP isn't even that good? Anyone?

I'm not even convinced that he's watching the games, actually. Or if he does, he closes his eyes whenever KP is on the court.

[3toheadmelo]

i get the frustrations with KP.. but i think we should give him more time too. look how gobert and giannis turned out. those guys weren't that good in their first years. even if KP stays the same player for the rest of his career, he's still good. what we need to focus on is getting KP help for the future, especially an alpha. i don't want this to turn into the carmelo anthony 2.0 all over again. we need to surround our best players with talent. this all starts with the draft