Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[TheDavinciCHODE]

I think MJ is the GOAT. I don't wanna debate that. Lebron would have to accomplish a lot in the 4-5 seasons to get over that hump. Possible, but note likely IMO.

Without discussing whether Jordan was better than who, I'd like to get the board's opinion on if MJ's competition was as good as everyone says it is. I think it's pretty obvious where I stand since I'm making the thread.

For example, MJ's Bulls lost to the Pistons in 89 and 90 when the Pistons were a deeper, better team and Pippen hadn't yet come into his own.

1990 was a 7 game series and much closer than 89. MJ was MJ, but the difference from the year before was Pippen playing much better.

1991...pretty meh series all around from Detroit as Chicago dominated. But again, MJ's stats were lower than they had been in previous seasons in this series. The real difference was an increase in production from Pippen and Grant. MJ did as MJ had done, 30/7/5, but he had done even better in series where his teams had lost.

So 91 is when MJ breaks through, beating the Pistons who were clearly on the way out. 4 game sweep in the ECF and 5 game series in the finals against the Lakers. That team also was past its prime, though still pretty good at 5th in offense and 5th in defense during the reg season. I'm pretty sure Magic had already contrated HIV by that time anyway....but even so, a few of the games weren't even close.

Other major rivals to MJ's Bulls throughout the 90s

Knicks - one star team that hung it's had on defense. Never had talent approaching the Jordan/Pippen level though IMO (sad to say as a Knicks fan).
Pacers - always a good team, but Reggie never was a superstar IMO

BTW, when MJ retired, the Bulls still won 50 + games. Was the league really that good?

Western Conference oppenents in the finals were always a treat to watch

Blazers
Suns
Sonics
Jazz

They were definitely great teams too. But the way they are venerated in hindsight is almost cult-like. For example, the Suns of that year were barely a top 10 defense. The Blazers were really deep and good defensively, but relied heavily on Clyde to carry the offense. etc.

I don't buy the narrative that MJ not only bulldozed the whole league, but won each title beating better competition than there is today. Seems to me like he played a lot of oppenents with 1 or two star players max. And even when he retired the team was still a 55 win team that took the conference champ Knicks to 7 games.

Of course you can't compare teams aross eras, but I think it's fair to evaluate the relative strength of teams to each other in different eras. How do you think MJ's finals oppenents compare to finals oppenents of Lebron? Namely the Ws and the Spurs.

[Arsenal]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

[DingleJerry]

And without looking specifically at teams in the playoffs/finals, the overall size and athleticism of the wings has drastically gone up over the last 25 years. Of course MJs athleticism was biggest advantage through the first 3 peat.

[Gibson22]

Michael Jordan freaking sucks I think it's time to say it

[Joker]

Here are the most lauded players from the 80's onward:
-Magic
-Bird
-Jordan
-Hakeem
-Shaq
-Kobe
-Duncan
-Lebron

The Bulls were too late for the Celtics-Laker era, and ended their reign before the Duncan-Shaq-Kobe era. Hakeem and the Rockets would've been Jordan's scariest opponent, but it never happened. If the Bulls had played the Rockets in the mid-90's or Spurs in the late 90's, that would've been interesting, because the Bulls never got an opponent of that caliber.

[mudsak]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

[ocelot17]

Jordan is pretty overrated when you think about it.

He would've lost against Duncan's Spurs or Shaq and Kobe lakers.

Not saying he isn't great but I just think it's funny that people think he's the goat, like it's an actual fact with no point in debating, which leads me believe that it was his marketability and popularity that led him to GOAT status

[PlatinumState]

I say in today's era no way does MJ get 6 rings. No way. 3-4 tops.

[yeahM8]

Yeah man even lavar ball could even take him back in the day

[mudsak]

Here are the most lauded players from the 80's onward:
-Magic
-Bird
-Jordan
-Hakeem
-Shaq
-Kobe
-Duncan
-Lebron

The Bulls were too late for the Celtics-Laker era, and ended their reign before the Duncan-Shaq-Kobe era. Hakeem and the Rockets would've been Jordan's scariest opponent, but it never happened. If the Bulls had played the Rockets in the mid-90's or Spurs in the late 90's, that would've been interesting, because the Bulls never got an opponent of that caliber.

Can't help but be a homer on this comment, but... Stockton and Malone belong on your list... Stockton, all time assist leader... Malone, 2nd all time scoring leader (ahead of Jordon himself)... It's not like that team was composed of weak players, and Jordon went through them twice to earn rings. It's not like Jordon just walked his way through easy competitors to get those rings.

[rumdiary]

To properly analyse this would take days.

[t-rexCity]

You bring up Pistons in the east but when did lebron ever face ANY competition during his championship years.
Now for argument sake, replace lebron with let's say Kobe or KD or hell let's say Blake Griffin when in Miami or the current Cavs, that team would be as good or even better you could argue. You cant say the same about MJ. Put the biggest star of the era to replace MJ I personally don't think they would have won a single championship. 
Pippen was a complementary piece. Look at his numbers. They were good not great. You replace Pippen with say Barkley, bulls would have been even stronger. MJ simply dominated the league with no asterisks and SIX rings. The rest of his team simply became great players with decent numbers. LBJ whether you like it or not bought his rings except last year even though his team was still stacked.‎

[lamscott]

We would also have to consider different types of rules. Aka lots more hand checking etc. Defense back then was no joke. Games were in the 70s. Also wasn't the 3 point like farther?

[t-rexCity]

Competition in the East I meant

[t-rexCity]

You bring up Pistons in the east but when did lebron ever face ANY competition during his championship years.
Now for argument sake, replace lebron with let's say Kobe or KD or hell let's say Blake Griffin when in Miami or the current Cavs, that team would be as good or even better you could argue. You cant say the same about MJ. Put the biggest star of the era to replace MJ I personally don't think they would have won a single championship. 
Pippen was a complementary piece. Look at his numbers. They were good not great. You replace Pippen with say Barkley, bulls would have been even stronger. MJ simply dominated the league with no asterisks and SIX rings. The rest of his team simply became great players with decent numbers. LBJ whether you like it or not bought his rings except last year even though his team was still stacked.‎

Competition in the East I meant..

[mischievous]

Jordan is pretty overrated when you think about it.

He would've lost against Duncan's Spurs or Shaq and Kobe lakers.

Not saying he isn't great but I just think it's funny that people think he's the goat, like it's an actual fact with no point in debating, which leads me believe that it was his marketability and popularity that led him to GOAT status

Well he does have goat level numbers next to Lebron.

[t-rexCity]

Jordan is pretty overrated when you think about it.

He would've lost against Duncan's Spurs or Shaq and Kobe lakers.

Not saying he isn't great but I just think it's funny that people think he's the goat, like it's an actual fact with no point in debating, which leads me believe that it was his marketability and popularity that led him to GOAT status

Well he does have goat level numbers next to Lebron.

Sigh..yep keep throwing words without substance to make an argument. Pistons beat the same Lakers and the same Lakers had to bring in Phil Jackson to make them a winner. How do you compare such a scenario when Phil Jackson was the freaking coach for Bulls. And MJ's popularity and marketability was successful because he was a winner you could argue. He could have produced the same numbers but without winning six rings, he would be equivalent to t-mac..

[dpgcdr]

if he stayed 94, 95 they wouldn't have beaten Houston

[Gary Cokeman]

Aha, another MJ Vs. LeBron thread. I think next perhaps I'll make a thread asking how many titles OKC would have won if they didn't trade Harden.

[Deivork]

COmparing to LeBron...? Not sure... probably harder. Comparing to Kobe, Shaq, Duncan... no way. Do we have a stat on 50win teams beaten by each?