Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[thamadkant]

Jordan today would still be better than anyone period. He will adapt... Just like all great players its not just physical talent but the mind.

[Han Solo]

Jordan is overrated to everyone that never seen him play. The people that did watch him know we saw the Babe Ruth of basketball in our lifetime.

[mischievous]

Jordan is pretty overrated when you think about it.

He would've lost against Duncan's Spurs or Shaq and Kobe lakers.

Not saying he isn't great but I just think it's funny that people think he's the goat, like it's an actual fact with no point in debating, which leads me believe that it was his marketability and popularity that led him to GOAT status

Well he does have goat level numbers next to Lebron.

Sigh..yep keep throwing words without substance to make an argument. Pistons beat the same Lakers and the same Lakers had to bring in Phil Jackson to make them a winner. How do you compare such a scenario when Phil Jackson was the freaking coach for Bulls. And MJ's popularity and marketability was successful because he was a winner you could argue. He could have produced the same numbers but without winning six rings, he would be equivalent to t-mac..

How exactly is this a response to me? The above poster said popularity, and marketability led to MJ being goat. That's up for debate, but he still put up goat level statistics and that's not really something that is disputable. I didn't make an argument i'm just stating what is a fact.

[AussieBuck]

Rapid league expansion with minimal foreign player pool. Very watered down league.

[RGM_SU]

And without looking specifically at teams in the playoffs/finals, the overall size and athleticism of the wings has drastically gone up over the last 25 years. Of course MJs athleticism was biggest advantage through the first 3 peat.

It's not like humans are suddenly getting stronger etc. The rise in athleticism has been facilitated by improvements in training and nutrition (and some would say better PEDs). Jordan for example didn't start working on strengthening his body in the gym until he started taking those beatings by the Pistons in the late 80s. Compare that to today where teens start doing that stuff in high school. You can't rule out that if Jordan had been born 25 years later he wouldn't have been an even better athlete in his 20s.

I'm pretty sure Magic had already contrated HIV by that time anyway....but even so, a few of the games weren't even close.

Had no effect on his play. No need to create some false narrative there. Magic Johnson in 1991 was still a force that led the Lakers to a 58-24 record and a victory over the best Blazers team ever (won 63 games and had an SRS of 8.47). In the playoffs Magic averaged 22/13/8.

1990 was a 7 game series and much closer than 89. MJ was MJ, but the difference from the year before was Pippen playing much better.

1991...pretty meh series all around from Detroit as Chicago dominated. But again, MJ's stats were lower than they had been in previous seasons in this series. The real difference was an increase in production from Pippen and Grant. MJ did as MJ had done, 30/7/5, but he had done even better in series where his teams had lost.

In 1991 Jordan shot 54% against the Pistons. Easily his best percentage against that team in the playoffs. And where did you get the idea that 1990 was much closer than 1989? In 1989 the Bulls had a 2-1 lead before the Pistons unleashed the Jordan rules. Then the Pistons reeled off three straight wins, but not exactly in blowout fashion (6-9-9 points). In 1990 the Bulls managed to keep serve at home but had no chance in Detroit, especially in games 5 and 7 which they lost by 14 and 19 points.

I don't buy the narrative that MJ not only bulldozed the whole league, but won each title beating better competition than there is today. Seems to me like he played a lot of oppenents with 1 or two star players max. And even when he retired the team was still a 55 win team that took the conference champ Knicks to 7 games.

I don't quite get where this supposed narrative is. Haven't really ever seen credible guys trying to make a claim that Jordan beat better competition. And the 1993-94 Bulls overachieved by relying on a good defense. While only 2 games off in the win department they were in reality significantly worse than 1993, despite getting much more from their role players compared to 1993, most notably Kukoc and Kerr. After losing Horace Grant in 1994 they were a .500 team, sitting at 34-31 (at one point they were even below .500 at 28-30) when Jordan returned (with him they went 13-4).

[Hello Brooklyn]

Yeah I'm tired of hearing this argument.

Jordan beat:

Magic's Lakers
Barkley's Suns
Stockton-Malone's Jazz
Payton's Supersonics
Drexler's Blazers

These were all great teams. The reason we don't think of them as truly great teams (excluding the Lakers) is because Jordan stopped all of them from winning championships.

[Dominator83]

You bring up Pistons in the east but when did lebron ever face ANY competition during his championship years.
Now for argument sake, replace lebron with let's say Kobe or KD or hell let's say Blake Griffin when in Miami or the current Cavs, that team would be as good or even better you could argue. You cant say the same about MJ. Put the biggest star of the era to replace MJ I personally don't think they would have won a single championship. 
Pippen was a complementary piece. Look at his numbers. They were good not great. You replace Pippen with say Barkley, bulls would have been even stronger. MJ simply dominated the league with no asterisks and SIX rings. The rest of his team simply became great players with decent numbers. LBJ whether you like it or not bought his rings except last year even though his team was still stacked.‎

Competition in the East I meant..

well, he did sweep the Shaq/Penny Magic. Thats a pretty impressive feat

[Dominator83]

Jordan is overrated to everyone that never seen him play. The people that did watch him know we saw the Babe Ruth of basketball in our lifetime.

and if a Pistons fan is giving MJ props, you know he was that damn good

[Hello Brooklyn]

More importantly, I'm personally disgusted by the whole Lebron thing.

Ok first of all:

Lebron has a CAKEWALK to the NBA Finals every single year. Except for the 2012 Celtics, Lebron has never even been seriously challenged in the Eastern Conference at all.

Lebron just wakes up every post season and he's automatically in the NBA Finals. He doesn't even have to try for the first 3 rounds. There is no top 5 team in the NBA from the East, besides the Cavaliers. I mean it's honestly a joke, how no other team in the East seems to have a roster that even comes close to rivaling that of the Cavaliers.

Besides that, Jordan also faced tougher competition in the Finals.

Lebron did beat the 2016 Warriors, fine that's the exception to the rule. That team was probably better than any team that Jordan faced.

But who else?

The 2012 Thunder, who were clearly in over their head. The 2013 aging Spurs, who Lebron beat because Ray Allen saved him at the end of game 6?

Neither of those teams are better than Magic's Lakers, Malone's Jazz, Barkley's Suns. Give me a break.

And then what about the teams Lebron lost too?

The 2014 Spurs who featured a declining Tim Duncan and a not even all star yet Leonard?

The 2011 Mavericks whose second best player was the corpse of Jason Kidd?

The 2015 Warriors back when Steph was averaging 23 points per game?

We don't even have count the 2007 Spurs series, back when Lebron was young and clearly outmatched.

But overall, no I do not think Lebron faced more competition. That's a joke.

[alebaba]

Utah Jazz would be in the finals in this era too, yall trippen.

[StraightShooter]

The thing about the Jordan team is. It is the best team in their era, much like Golden State Warriors now, and the only guy that could possibly guard him is Scottie Pippen which is ironically is his own team mate. During the times when Michael didn't have pippen he's just an Allen Iverson out there scoring monstrously but cannot lead his team past first round playoff. In short, without Pippen he's a plain loser. Pippen was such a force of nature that even at michael jordan's absence and abrupt retirement he would hold the fort and lead his team to the finals by himself and almost won a championship. That is because Pippen is not just the best perimeter defender the game has ever seen but he is also a very great leader.

[miman15]

You bring up Pistons in the east but when did lebron ever face ANY competition during his championship years.
Now for argument sake, replace lebron with let's say Kobe or KD or hell let's say Blake Griffin when in Miami or the current Cavs, that team would be as good or even better you could argue. You cant say the same about MJ. Put the biggest star of the era to replace MJ I personally don't think they would have won a single championship. 
Pippen was a complementary piece. Look at his numbers. They were good not great. You replace Pippen with say Barkley, bulls would have been even stronger. MJ simply dominated the league with no asterisks and SIX rings. The rest of his team simply became great players with decent numbers. LBJ whether you like it or not bought his rings except last year even though his team was still stacked.‎

I dont think Miami or current Cavs would be better with KD or Kobe (Lebrons skills just fills the void and defeciencies of those teams better), but I can see why you believe that. But definitely not better with Blake Griffin... LMAO

[Pablo Escobar]

Jordan wasn't my era. I'm 25 and I can confidently say, Jordan's the goat.

[GrandTheftRondo]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

Yes you can. Dirk was amazing as were the Mavs with the way they played as a team and dug deep to win the series.

However LeBron was terrible that series, easily the worst series of his career. He had so many chances to take games over and he deflected to Wade. That series was still there for the taking despite Dirk's greatness and LeBron put up no fight.

[Warriorfan]

Different rules different eras. Jordan and Pippin would have probably become great 3 pt shooters if they played now.

[3Diamantidis]

Yeah I'm tired of hearing this argument.

Jordan beat:

Magic's Lakers
Barkley's Suns
Stockton-Malone's Jazz
Payton's Supersonics
Drexler's Blazers

These were all great teams. The reason we don't think of them as truly great teams (excluding the Lakers) is because Jordan stopped all of them from winning championships.

Plus, he dethroned the greatest team in Pistons history in epic battles.
Does anyone think that those Pistons wouldn't have been a contender today? I'm not even talking about the East. Clear #1.

[SerialChiller]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

Yes you can. Dirk was amazing as were the Mavs with the way they played as a team and dug deep to win the series.

However LeBron was terrible that series, easily the worst series of his career. He had so many chances to take games over and he deflected to Wade. That series was still there for the taking despite Dirk's greatness and LeBron put up no fight.

Exactly...Dirk was great no doubt, but Wade played just as well if not better, actually averaged slightly more points as well. Lebron blew that series for the Heat plain and simple.

[ClubLakers KB8]

It's all relative. Jordan crushed his competition with two different three peats. It's possible he could have had 8 in a row (I just said possible, people... don't jump at that).

He warrants the GOAT label, but you can make the argument for 3-4 others.

[RGM_SU]

The thing about the Jordan team is. It is the best team in their era, much like Golden State Warriors now, and the only guy that could possibly guard him is Scottie Pippen which is ironically is his own team mate. During the times when Michael didn't have pippen he's just an Allen Iverson out there scoring monstrously but cannot lead his team past first round playoff. In short, without Pippen he's a plain loser. Pippen was such a force of nature that even at michael jordan's absence and abrupt retirement he would hold the fort and lead his team to the finals by himself and almost won a championship. That is because Pippen is not just the best perimeter defender the game has ever seen but he is also a very great leader.

Nice joke.

[Gibson22]

Yeah man even lavar ball could even take him back in the day

I don't know but one thing I can say to you guys and that's for sure michael jordan doesn't want to see him. Hell no he doesn't. He's too big too strong he lifts weights. LONZO BALL DONT WANNA SEE ME