2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[JordansBulls]

East Playoffs will be interesting if Boston can get #1 seed.

[BallerTalk]

So wining by 4 and 1 points is considering taking a team apart?

Maybe not but averaging 39.5 ppg ... 10.5 ast ... 8.5 reb ... 3 stl, over those two games might be.

On a side note, after having watched them upclose the last few games, I think the Nuggets are a lot better than most people think.

They are, just inconsistent, which happens with teams like this. Definitely will be a strong 8th seed even if their record isn't spectacular. Pretty sure they have the best offense in the league over the past few months as well.

Yep they are pretty inconsistent, and their defense is still atrocious, but their offense is absolutely elite.
They are number 1 in offense since the start of the year, and we are talking about a year when the Rockets, Warriors, and Cavs are breaking records on offense.

They've improved tremendously since the beginning of the season and if they can hold on to that 8th seed they could give the Warriors (or Spurs) a pretty entertaining series.

[TheExpat]

Man... Coming in on this at page 75 and seeing Harden winning this poll by such a wide margin is just disrespect to Russell Westbrook.

Russell Westbrook should clearly win MVP.

If he averages a tripe double and then doesn't win it... smh. I grew up hearing how "nobody will ever do that again."

Westbrook is the better defender, and has the less talented supporting cast on both sides of the ball.

Imagine the Thunder without Westbrook. They'd be parked near the bottom of the Western Conference looking forward to the lottery. No doubt.

Westbrook is the MVP.

[CnG]

Man... Coming in on this at page 75 and seeing Harden winning this poll by such a wide margin is just disrespect to Russell Westbrook.

Russell Westbrook should clearly win MVP.

If he averages a tripe double and then doesn't win it... smh. I grew up hearing how "nobody will ever do that again."

Westbrook is the better defender, and has the less talented supporting cast on both sides of the ball.

Imagine the Thunder without Westbrook. They'd be parked near the bottom of the Western Conference looking forward to the lottery. No doubt.

Westbrook is the MVP.

First, no person "clearly" deserves MVP over another, especially not Russ.

2 more rebounds than Harden to fit an arbitrary number that has no significance other than how it looks on a page is NOT a case for MVP. That's the sort of arguments illogical media like Cowherd and Skip use.

Westbrook is arguably the worst defender of all 4 MVP candidates. He's definitely not better, and at best is on a par with Harden. Russ has been flat out awful in the clutch defensively and gets exploited defensively off the ball but any good team. That side of the floor is not a positive for Westbrook and not a reason he's better than Harden, Kawhi or Lebron.

The only disrespect is how people talk about Russ' teammates. So much talk about how they terrible they are through the whole season like they didn't get blown out by the Warriors who started McCaw and Zaza whilst giving significant minutes to McGee and West. Would any of those 4 even crack the Thunder rotation? Maybe the latter, certainly not the first 3.

Russ lacks 2 way players around him but people seem to be dismissing Adams, Dipo and Roberson (might be the worst offensive player in the league though) like they offer nothing. That's a very solid defensive cast. Taj is another good addition.

You can certainly make a case for Russ but no way is he clearly the MVP.

[antonac]

I don't think Russ should win it. He has a case obviously, but he shouldn't have a case because it's built on stuff that's been over-stated.

The triple double season is doubtlessly a fantastic statistical achievement, but ultimately that's all it is. Stats are misleading, as I'm sure everyone has covered on this board a thousand times, and statistical obsession by players almost always leads to reduced performance. I have seen players throw away games in other sports chasing numbers, it's not a thing to be encouraged. I don't think I'd pick Westbrook as a better player than Harden or even Curry this year, because the primary function of a player is to contribute to the result, not the stat sheet.

I know the OKC are a lottery team without Russ, and with him they're a decent play-off team. lets not get nuts though, only a decent one. If there was 4 games the Thunder wanted to win this season it was the ones against GSW, and each time they didn't just lose, they were blown out. That's how ineffectual the Thunder really are compared to the contenders. I also think it takes an awful lot more to turn a good play-off team into one of the best teams in the league. Really, what Westbrook is doing is no different to what Jokic is doing in Denver, Butler with the Bulls, Antetokounmpo for the bucks. Now those are seriously good players, no one would dispute that, haven't seen their names mentioned in this thread much though.

But the great thing about records is that your name is immortalized by owning them. Everyone knows Stockton had the highest assists per season, everyone knows Wilt had a 50pph season and a 100 point game, that KAJ has the most points etc etc. That's westbrook's rewards, he gets to sit next to Oscar Robertson with the only triple double season ever. his reward, however, should not include recieving the MVP which should be reserved for someone with a legitimate claim to being the best player in the league.

[lilswift01]

I love Russ but he is very bad defensively, mostly due to effort.

[BlueLion]

I don't think Russ should win it. He has a case obviously, but he shouldn't have a case because it's built on stuff that's been over-stated.

The triple double season is doubtlessly a fantastic statistical achievement, but ultimately that's all it is. Stats are misleading, as I'm sure everyone has covered on this board a thousand times, and statistical obsession by players almost always leads to reduced performance. I have seen players throw away games in other sports chasing numbers, it's not a thing to be encouraged. I don't think I'd pick Westbrook as a better player than Harden or even Curry this year, because the primary function of a player is to contribute to the result, not the stat sheet.

But you contribute to result with better stats..

I know the OKC are a lottery team without Russ, and with him they're a decent play-off team. lets not get nuts though, only a decent one. If there was 4 games the Thunder wanted to win this season it was the ones against GSW, and each time they didn't just lose, they were blown out. That's how ineffectual the Thunder really are compared to the contenders. I also think it takes an awful lot more to turn a good play-off team into one of the best teams in the league. Really, what Westbrook is doing is no different to what Jokic is doing in Denver, Butler with the Bulls, Antetokounmpo for the bucks. Now those are seriously good players, no one would dispute that, haven't seen their names mentioned in this thread much though.

Can't discuss this really. You put Westbrook name with guys that have under 50% record (Bucks are only one game over 50%), you underestimate his impact, his greatness and his value to this OKC team.

And for poster who said 2 rebounds are not that much. At least 162 rebounds more in one season is a lot. Probably 20-30 offensive rebounds more.

[CnG]

And for poster who said 2 rebounds are not that much. At least 162 rebounds more in one season is a lot. Probably 20-30 offensive rebounds more.

If you're basing your MVP decision on the basis of Russ gets 2 more rebounds a game (which is exactly what you are doing if you argue triple double = MVP) then that's just a horrible take.

There are solid arguments for why Russ should win MVP, but 2 more rebounds per game and working it out over the course of a season is so strange.

I bet Harden's, Kawhi's, and Lebron's significantly better efficiency from the field over the course of a season heavily outweighs 162 rebounds, which probably 20-25% are contested.

[Z Cabarkapa]

I don't think Russ should win it. He has a case obviously, but he shouldn't have a case because it's built on stuff that's been over-stated.

The triple double season is doubtlessly a fantastic statistical achievement, but ultimately that's all it is. Stats are misleading, as I'm sure everyone has covered on this board a thousand times, and statistical obsession by players almost always leads to reduced performance. I have seen players throw away games in other sports chasing numbers, it's not a thing to be encouraged. I don't think I'd pick Westbrook as a better player than Harden or even Curry this year, because the primary function of a player is to contribute to the result, not the stat sheet.

But you contribute to result with better stats..

I know the OKC are a lottery team without Russ, and with him they're a decent play-off team. lets not get nuts though, only a decent one. If there was 4 games the Thunder wanted to win this season it was the ones against GSW, and each time they didn't just lose, they were blown out. That's how ineffectual the Thunder really are compared to the contenders. I also think it takes an awful lot more to turn a good play-off team into one of the best teams in the league. Really, what Westbrook is doing is no different to what Jokic is doing in Denver, Butler with the Bulls, Antetokounmpo for the bucks. Now those are seriously good players, no one would dispute that, haven't seen their names mentioned in this thread much though.

Can't discuss this really. You put Westbrook name with guys that have under 50% record (Bucks are only one game over 50%), you underestimate his impact, his greatness and his value to this OKC team.

And for poster who said 2 rebounds are not that much. At least 162 rebounds more in one season is a lot. Probably 20-30 offensive rebounds more.

OKC bigs give Russ 3+ rebounds a game on balls they could easily get (often on FTs) themselves. I understand the strategy - they box out but let Russ grab it so he can start the fast break without needing an outlet pass. This is smart basketball for an OKC offense that has poor shooting and desperately needs transition buckets, but on any other team the bigs would bang their own guard out of the way and say "don't be taking my boards away!" Seen it happen hundres of times. Just giving Russ the MVP for over Harden for getting those 2 "extra" boards lacks context.

When Oscar got his triple double for the season he placed third in MVP behind Bill Russell and Wilt. Why? MVPs almost exclusively come from top 4 squads. Taking a lottery squad to a #6 seed is definitely an impressive feat. But turning a borderline #8 seed into a championship contender is tougher to do, and, for me, a greater accomplishment.

[antonac]

But you contribute to result with better stats..

This is generally true but it's not entirely logically valid. A good performance is a good a performance, and stats have evolved and been chosen that seem to follow from a good performance so to make it easier to assess who's playing well in the event we can't watch the actual game. This is really obvious in the NBA where we've not just got points/rebounds/assists but a whole bunch of advanced metrics, per 36 mins, 100 possessions etc to make even more sense of all the numbers.

How you're supposed to use them is by assuming good stats have followed from a good performance, but when you attribute some sort of value to the stats themselves you start working backwards and assume good performance has followed from good stats. That's not the case. I mean, are we really saying Westbrook's 2016-17 is the best season ever since Oscar Robertson? Curry's 2015-16 was statistically inferior but was clearly better performance wise.

it's particulary a problem with Westbrook as the stats are arbitrarily chosen because they have a nice linguistical ring to it. "triple double" I mean, in all honesty if your triple double was 10/10/10 the 10 points part is kinda below average.

So yeah, I take your point, but the fact is it's a statistical feet first and a performance one second. The record books are where we enshrine the best stats, the MVP should be for the best player.

Can't discuss this really. You put Westbrook name with guys that have under 50% record (Bucks are only one game over 50%), you underestimate his impact, his greatness and his value to this OKC team.

And for poster who said 2 rebounds are not that much. At least 162 rebounds more in one season is a lot. Probably 20-30 offensive rebounds more.

I think we can, I don't think OKC are a markedly better team than those ones, Westbrook has been more consistent definitely and is the best of them, but OKC have a better roster than the Bulls or Nuggets so that accounts for some of the disparity as well (I'd say the Bucks are better, though it would be nice had they all been healthy at any point this season).

not gonna labour this point though because OKC's record is a lot better than those teams that have struggled at points in the season.

[gmoney411]

And for poster who said 2 rebounds are not that much. At least 162 rebounds more in one season is a lot. Probably 20-30 offensive rebounds more.

It's not a big deal over the course of the season and especially when you factor in that the Thunder give Russ rebounds other players could get. He leads the league in uncontested rebounds at 8.4. Which just so happens to be 2 above Harden's average.

[Andre Roberstan]

And for poster who said 2 rebounds are not that much. At least 162 rebounds more in one season is a lot. Probably 20-30 offensive rebounds more.

It's not a big deal over the course of the season and especially when you factor in that the Thunder give Russ rebounds other players could get. He leads the league in uncontested rebounds at 8.4. Which just so happens to be 2 above Harden's average.

He also leads all guards in rebound chances (coincidentally, exactly 2 more chances per game than Harden) and sits pretty squarely middle of the pack among guards for contested rebound percentage. Within a percentage point of Harden, BTW.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

[Patches Perry]

I think if Westbrook breaks Oscar's triple doubles in a season, he wins the award. If he doesn't break the record, he still has the triple double average going for him, but I think Harden or Leonard would probably win it in that case.

[Goodfellaz]

mvp odds posted below

[Goodfellaz]

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[RSCD3_]

Its a joke for LeBron to even be in the discussion for MVP. He doesent have a chance. Theres 5 players ahead of him at least.

Harden
Westbrook
Leonard
Thomas
Durant (if he hadnt gotten injured)

Why would Thomas be ahead of him if he doesnt even get the #1 seed. Not to mention boston is incredibly deep wrt roleplayers whike clevelands big names off the bench are a lot more one dimensional

Also Love and Smith, two of the top 5 players last year missed about 60-70 games combined. I just dont see isaiah belonging ahead of lebron.

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[RightToCensor]

Read on Twitter

[inquisitive]

Harden responsible for 73 of Rockets' points tonite against pelicans..keeping his sizable MVP lead.

[K_chile22]

Harden finished with 38-17-7-2, tying Magic's record for most 30-15 games in a season, and a pretty clean game with only 3 TO's.

Also put the game away with a personal 8 point run. MVP.

[wonkrazyz28]

James with 38-17-7
Responsible for 73 points tonight.