Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[LakersLegacy]

When u factor in Jordan rules and the refs. I definitely
don think so in the 90s.

Magic got sick. Bird got injured and old. Jordan had to deal w his draft class. But it's not like the Shaq/Kobe dominate Lakers or the Duncan/Manu/Parker Spurs were waiting each year.

Despite this Mj is he GOAT because the way he dominated the competition.

[therealbig3]

People rarely mention how completely outmatched most of the perimeter defenders MJ went up against were.

Look around the league, and pretty much every good team has at least one legit 6'4" or taller defender that is long and athletic and wouldn't be hopeless at trying to stay in front of a great athlete.

It's kind of a joke to look back at a lot of Jordan's playoff series, like the 91 Finals, when an injured Byron Scott was the best they could do against him. Or when he played Atlanta in the playoffs and they put Mookie Blaylock on him. Or in the 93 Finals, when he went up against Kevin Johnson, because Dan Majerle had no lateral quickness. Or when he played the Knicks and was defended by John Starks. When he did play against people his own size, like the aforementioned Majerle, or Reggie Miller, or Clyde Drexler, they were hopelessly outmatched in terms of quickness, or they just weren't very good defenders in the first place. That wouldn't be the case today.

The only elite perimeter defender I can think of that he went up against with actual size and athleticism to keep up with him was Gary Payton, and Jordan was held WELL below his percentages in those Finals. Granted, he wasn't peak Jordan anymore, but he wasn't far off either.

Nowadays, you have Jordan-sized wings that are great athletes and great defenders on almost every great team. While a guy like Dan Majerle, who couldn't move his feet, was good enough to make an All-D team in the 90s LOL. And defensive schemes are superior now, and you can't clear out an entire side of the court to go 1 on 1 anymore.

Defenses are definitely tougher today, both on an individual and team level. Jordan's teams also usually had more talent than the teams they played against, and let's be honest, Jordan's teams didn't start dominating until the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons got old, they never got to go up against the Rockets in 94 or 95, and his run ended right before Shaq/Kobe started dominating.

It's amazing to me how people will nitpick LeBron's runs so much, but then completely ignore the weak sauce competition Jordan faced.

With that said, I think Jordan is the GOAT (or 2nd, behind Kareem), but I think it's basically a foregone conclusion that LeBron passes him at this point, based on longevity alone. Jordan's injury in 86, and his retirement after 93, essentially cut his prime short by 3 seasons.

[Pg81]

People rarely mention how completely outmatched most of the perimeter defenders MJ went up against were.

Look around the league, and pretty much every good team has at least one legit 6'4" or taller defender that is long and athletic and wouldn't be hopeless at trying to stay in front of a great athlete.

It's kind of a joke to look back at a lot of Jordan's playoff series, like the 91 Finals, when an injured Byron Scott was the best they could do against him. Or when he played Atlanta in the playoffs and they put Mookie Blaylock on him. Or in the 93 Finals, when he went up against Kevin Johnson, because Dan Majerle had no lateral quickness. Or when he played the Knicks and was defended by John Starks. When he did play against people his own size, like the aforementioned Majerle, or Reggie Miller, or Clyde Drexler, they were hopelessly outmatched in terms of quickness, or they just weren't very good defenders in the first place. That wouldn't be the case today.

The only elite perimeter defender I can think of that he went up against with actual size and athleticism to keep up with him was Gary Payton, and Jordan was held WELL below his percentages in those Finals. Granted, he wasn't peak Jordan anymore, but he wasn't far off either.

Nowadays, you have Jordan-sized wings that are great athletes and great defenders on almost every great team. While a guy like Dan Majerle, who couldn't move his feet, was good enough to make an All-D team in the 90s LOL. And defensive schemes are superior now, and you can't clear out an entire side of the court to go 1 on 1 anymore.

Defenses are definitely tougher today, both on an individual and team level. Jordan's teams also usually had more talent than the teams they played against, and let's be honest, Jordan's teams didn't start dominating until the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons got old, they never got to go up against the Rockets in 94 or 95, and his run ended right before Shaq/Kobe started dominating.

It's amazing to me how people will nitpick LeBron's runs so much, but then completely ignore the weak sauce competition Jordan faced.

With that said, I think Jordan is the GOAT (or 2nd, behind Kareem), but I think it's basically a foregone conclusion that LeBron passes him at this point, based on longevity alone. Jordan's injury in 86, and his retirement after 93, essentially cut his prime short by 3 seasons.

It didn't help that the idiocit illegal defense rule was in place either. Furthermore, outside of Drexler who was there at SG who could have been considered a serious threat in the 90s? No one.

[Ambrose]

You bring up Pistons in the east but when did lebron ever face ANY competition during his championship years.
Now for argument sake, replace lebron with let's say Kobe or KD or hell let's say Blake Griffin when in Miami or the current Cavs, that team would be as good or even better you could argue. You cant say the same about MJ. Put the biggest star of the era to replace MJ I personally don't think they would have won a single championship. 
Pippen was a complementary piece. Look at his numbers. They were good not great. You replace Pippen with say Barkley, bulls would have been even stronger. MJ simply dominated the league with no asterisks and SIX rings. The rest of his team simply became great players with decent numbers. LBJ whether you like it or not bought his rings except last year even though his team was still stacked.‎

Your first paragraph destroys your credibility.

[FlopShow2013]

Yes

[MyUniBroDavis]

You bring up Pistons in the east but when did lebron ever face ANY competition during his championship years.
Now for argument sake, replace lebron with let's say Kobe or KD or hell let's say Blake Griffin when in Miami or the current Cavs, that team would be as good or even better you could argue. You cant say the same about MJ. Put the biggest star of the era to replace MJ I personally don't think they would have won a single championship.
Pippen was a complementary piece. Look at his numbers. They were good not great. You replace Pippen with say Barkley, bulls would have been even stronger. MJ simply dominated the league with no asterisks and SIX rings. The rest of his team simply became great players with decent numbers. LBJ whether you like it or not bought his rings except last year even though his team was still stacked.‎

HELL
NO

[Norm2953]

MJ played in the era prior to the adoption of the hand check rules. Couple that with the
3 point line and prior to free agency and the cap it's hard to compare how players from
his era would compare to today. The 80's era Pistons given the rules could be literally
tougher than any other team they played.

[Ambrose]

I'm not going to act like LeBron has had to go up against a murderers row in the postseason but the Celtics (a few times) and short Pacers run were both legitimate opponents. Anyway who can't acknowledge at least that much has some issues. His finals competition the last 3 years has been undeniably high.

[MalonesElbows]

If MJ was playing in this era, it's also safe to assume he would have drawn the spineless coattailer's like Durant to come and play with him. He might have won 8 rings!

[Rich Rane]

Yeah I'm tired of hearing this argument.

Jordan beat:

Magic's Lakers
Barkley's Suns
Stockton-Malone's Jazz
Payton's Supersonics
Drexler's Blazers

These were all great teams. The reason we don't think of them as truly great teams (excluding the Lakers) is because Jordan stopped all of them from winning championships.

Plus, he dethroned the greatest team in Pistons history in epic battles.
Does anyone think that those Pistons wouldn't have been a contender today? I'm not even talking about the East. Clear #1.

Not entirely sure they would fit today's game. Laimbeer and Mahorn would lead the league in technical fouls and ejections and suspensions due to technical fouls. Rodman might lead the league in fines for inappropriate grabbing.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Dirk had a great postseason but he actually wasn't that great in the Finals. Good, but not a performance for the ages. Not to take any credit away from him or the Mavs, but LeBron was really terrible in those Finals.

I... are you serious? Dirk was dominant that series.

I'm not sure if MJ went against better competition, but he went against a different era of competition that was tougher in some aspects and lacking in other aspects compared to the current. I think of him as GOAT because he always seemed to rise to the occasion when it counted and did enough to go 6/6 in the finals.

I... are you serious? Dirk was pretty good that series.

I watched every minute of every game. He shot something like 40% on the series, in the closeout game he scored 21 on 9/27 shooting. 100% stand by my original statement, it was not an individual performance for the ages. It was a team performance for the ages, and an upset for the ages, but Dirk individually has had much better moments, including the western conference finals that same season.

[MartinToVaught]

When Jordan faced actually tough competition, he got owned by Bird and the Pistons every year. One can only imagine how hated he'd be in today's world. The Crying Jordan memes would be applied to the actual Jordan as a player. He'd be called a stat-padder, a loser, etc.

As for his prime, it would have been embarrassing if Jordan didn't dominate the '90s. He had the most stacked team by far every year. The one team with a chance to beat the Jordan Bulls (Hakeem's Rockets) peaked just in time for Jordan to take two years off in his prime. There were few, if any, elite perimeter defenders who could check him. The great teams of the '80s got old and fell from grace, and expansion watered down the league. The illegal defense rules were still in place. And Stern started changing everything from the flagrant foul rules to the length of the three-point line to make it easier on Jordan. If LeBron had even a fraction of these advantages in his favor, his haters would be a million times more obnoxious in refusing to give him credit for anything than they already are.

The Jordan/'90s myth has grown so ridiculous and so tiresome. Some of it is coming from a lazy NBA marketing department that continues to rely on Jordan and the neverending search for a new Jordan figure to anoint. Some of it is coming from salty retired players whose egos prevent them from admitting that the era they played in wasn't the be all, end all of the NBA. Some of it is coming from fans of teams that haven't been relevant in ages and want to blame it on the state of the league today instead of their owners, front offices, coaches and players. Some of it is coming from younger fans who learned about previous eras from the other three sources and have skewed assumptions of what the league used to be like as a result. Very little of it is based in facts or a desire for good-faith basketball discussion; most of it is agenda-driven.

[GermanFan120]

Watch on YouTube

To all the MJ doubter, stop trying to be different.

[MartinToVaught]

Watch on YouTube

To all the MJ doubter, stop trying to be different.

[Joker]

Were the Knicks legit competition? I mean, they struggled to beat the jordanless bulls in '94, so that's telling. People like to say that Jordan denied Ewing a ring, but Pippen nearly had the capacity to as well.

[Mbrahv0528]

When Jordan faced actually tough competition, he got owned by Bird and the Pistons every year. One can only imagine how hated he'd be in today's world. The Crying Jordan memes would be applied to the actual Jordan as a player. He'd be called a stat-padder, a loser, etc.

As for his prime, it would have been embarrassing if Jordan didn't dominate the '90s. He had the most stacked team by far every year. The one team with a chance to beat the Jordan Bulls (Hakeem's Rockets) peaked just in time for Jordan to take two years off in his prime. There were few, if any, elite perimeter defenders who could check him. The great teams of the '80s got old and fell from grace, and expansion watered down the league. The illegal defense rules were still in place. And Stern started changing everything from the flagrant foul rules to the length of the three-point line to make it easier on Jordan. If LeBron had even a fraction of these advantages in his favor, his haters would be a million times more obnoxious in refusing to give him credit for anything than they already are.

The Jordan/'90s myth has grown so ridiculous and so tiresome. Some of it is coming from a lazy NBA marketing department that continues to rely on Jordan and the neverending search for a new Jordan figure to anoint. Some of it is coming from salty retired players whose egos prevent them from admitting that the era they played in wasn't the be all, end all of the NBA. Some of it is coming from fans of teams that haven't been relevant in ages and want to blame it on the state of the league today instead of their owners, front offices, coaches and players. Some of it is coming from younger fans who learned about previous eras from the other three sources and have skewed assumptions of what the league used to be like as a result. Very little of it is based in facts or a desire for good-faith basketball discussion; most of it is agenda-driven.

This is all a bunch of nonsense.

[sule]

Well, one can make an argument on either side for things like defensive intensity/strategy, rule changes, toughness, training regimen, etc. But I wouldn't really put much doubt on the level of competition Jordan faced, he still had to go up against the likes of:

Isaiah Thomas
Larry Johnson
Shaq
Hakeem Olajuwan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Clyde Drexler
Dominque Wilkins
Patrick Ewing
Gary Payton
Stockton/Malone
Shawn Kemp
Penny Hardaway
Charles Barkley
David Robinson
Larry Bird
Moses Malone
Kevin Mchale
Reggie Miller
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Alonzo Mourning
etc

[PaulieWal]

Winning six titles was a great achievement, but he won them because of several factors. In the nineties he got better players and a better coach, the great teams of the eighties expired, and the teams the Bulls played in the nineties weren't as good as the best eighties teams.
Still winning six titles was a stupendous achievement. But fortunate circumstances did help.
If the Bulls with the same coach and players of the nineties had to face the gauntlet of the eighties Celtics, Sixers, Lakers, and even Bucks, chances are they would have won maybe only two titles, three max. Still, they were a great team.

The great 80s teams might have beaten the 90s Bulls but they could win 80 games if they played today. The Celtics, Lakers, Pistons and Sixers all had all star or HoFers coming off there bench. The Lakers/Celtics had former MVPs as 6th men. The Bad Boys bench is better than the current Piston starters.


The simple fact that LBJ had to find teams with multiple all stars already on board just to reach a Finals is severely damming to his legacy. LBJ has already played with 3x as many all stars and HoFers in a larger more watered down league.

Sure the 90s expansion, Sixers horrible GM, Len Bias death, and Magics HIV were big factors but none were directly under MJs control while LBJ was able to directly pick his teammates and recruit all stars to it. He then went back to the Cavs after they had tanked up on assests.

In conclusion: Every era, every team and every player looks weak compared to the 80s. LBJ is the best player of his generation but so could Alex English or Grant Hill if they played today.

Not sure if this is a parody post or actually serious.

[Nazrmohamed]

Were the Knicks legit competition? I mean, they struggled to beat the jordanless bulls in '94, so that's telling. People like to say that Jordan denied Ewing a ring, but Pippen nearly had the capacity to as well.

People will always try to minimize those knick teams but if I had to pick a team from the near present that would've been what the Knicks were it probably wouldve been actually the more recent Chicago Bulls when Noah and Rose were in thier prime. Obviously not the exact makeup, or star was a C thiers was a PG. But still it was a team that played as one rugged suffocating defense with one true star to look up to. Now you simply will never win a title just relying on that but they had just about the sane impact. A perennial near contender that would get snuffed out by that eras version of Lebron. Nope, they didn't have what it takes to win the title but to say it like they weren't a great team of thier time is just not reality.

[bdp31770]

And without looking specifically at teams in the playoffs/finals, the overall size and athleticism of the wings has drastically gone up over the last 25 years. Of course MJs athleticism was biggest advantage through the first 3 peat.

The average NBA players height is almost exactly the same as it was 25 years ago, right around 6"7... so I dont think wings or any other position are any taller now. They are about 5 pounds heavier though.