Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Nazrmohamed]

As far as the 80s, Id put the Celtics up against any team of this era after just two months of modern nba training. I actually think the showtime Lakers mightve had more trouble with the lack of true shooters. One might say that the Celtics didn't shoot alot of threes but I still think they could if they were brought up in that culture. That's why I gave them the 2 months to adjust. They'd probably still be a 3 out 2 in team but Mchale could still does the floor out to 18-20ft and whats not considered was they were all excellent passers. Not just a guard driving kicking off pick and roll. Thier bigs could pass like point guards and we're unstoppable in the post. I think they'd have just as much success as the Spurs do. Other teams not so much.

Actually I take that back. People gotta understand that every team you see now had a counterpart in the 80s and 90s. There were running teams, three point teams. Every generation though the rules change so that THE RULES DECIDE who gets to be dominant or not. For all we know a team like the 80s nuggets who couldnt win given thier style would fit right in while a team like the 90s Bulls or Knicks would be good but not as dominant. People act like the Pacers who were winning just 2 seasons ago were a model of modern nba basketball or the Grizzlies. I think analytics and trends tend to cloud people to the fact that even now there are teams with varying styles winning big. I mean, we thought the way to win titles is with the three ball and then Lebron wins a title basically taking it to the rim. The Thunder lose after being up 3-1 but it isn't cuz they failed to shoot threes, it's cause they feel apart.

[therealbig3]

Were the Knicks legit competition? I mean, they struggled to beat the jordanless bulls in '94, so that's telling. People like to say that Jordan denied Ewing a ring, but Pippen nearly had the capacity to as well.

People will always try to minimize those knick teams but if I had to pick a team from the near present that would've been what the Knicks were it probably wouldve been actually the more recent Chicago Bulls when Noah and Rose were in thier prime. Obviously not the exact makeup, or star was a C thiers was a PG. But still it was a team that played as one rugged suffocating defense with one true star to look up to. Now you simply will never win a title just relying on that but they had just about the sane impact. A perennial near contender that would get snuffed out by that eras version of Lebron. Nope, they didn't have what it takes to win the title but to say it like they weren't a great team of thier time is just not reality.

Except those Knicks teams defended Jordan with a 6'3" John Starks.

Meanwhile, those Bulls teams had Luol Deng, and more recently, Jimmy Butler.

That's kind of the theme of Jordan's career, he went up against tiny defenders that he could shoot over or bully in the post, because pretty much everyone that was his size didn't have the lateral quickness or the defensive talent (Miller and Drexler weren't ever considered great defenders) to stay with Jordan.

Even those vaunted Pistons defenses...mainly defended Jordan with 6'2" Joe Dumars.

Who would a star offensive player rather go up against? Joe Dumars, John Starks, Mookie Blaylock, Kevin Johnson, and Byron Scott...or Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng, Jimmy Butler, Tayshaun Prince, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, and Kevin Durant? Not even close imo, definitely the former would be the easier path. Those guys are just too little. Not to mention that individually, Pierce wasn't the greatest defender in the world, but he was solidly above average, was deceptively athletic, was incredibly strong, and he was a legit 6'6"...and those Celtics defenses were always about KG first and foremost anyway, with Tony Allen off the bench in 08 and 10.

Perimeter defensive talent was SERIOUSLY lacking during Jordan's prime...the best perimeter defender in the league was on Jordan's team (Pippen). Defensive rule changes being what they are as well, it's impossible for a dominant 1 on 1 scorer to be allowed to go 1 on 1 nowadays, but Jordan was allowed to.

Funnily enough though, nobody EVER mentions this. Jordan predictably abusing Byron Scott and Kevin Johnson is somehow glorified. I mean, yes, it's incredibly impressive that he was dropping 30-40+ points like it was nothing, but he wasn't getting a lot of resistance, let's be honest. Probably the GOAT, but everyone acts like his career was flawless. If you put him under the same microscope that LeBron gets put under, Jordan's career wasn't flawless either.

[Nazrmohamed]

Were the Knicks legit competition? I mean, they struggled to beat the jordanless bulls in '94, so that's telling. People like to say that Jordan denied Ewing a ring, but Pippen nearly had the capacity to as well.

People will always try to minimize those knick teams but if I had to pick a team from the near present that would've been what the Knicks were it probably wouldve been actually the more recent Chicago Bulls when Noah and Rose were in thier prime. Obviously not the exact makeup, or star was a C thiers was a PG. But still it was a team that played as one rugged suffocating defense with one true star to look up to. Now you simply will never win a title just relying on that but they had just about the sane impact. A perennial near contender that would get snuffed out by that eras version of Lebron. Nope, they didn't have what it takes to win the title but to say it like they weren't a great team of thier time is just not reality.

Except those Knicks teams defended Jordan with a 6'3" John Starks.

Meanwhile, those Bulls teams had Luol Deng, and more recently, Jimmy Butler.

That's kind of the theme of Jordan's career, he went up against tiny defenders that he could shoot over or bully in the post, because pretty much everyone that was his size didn't have the lateral quickness or the defensive talent (Miller and Drexler weren't ever considered great defenders) to stay with Jordan.

Even those vaunted Pistons defenses...mainly defended Jordan with 6'2" Joe Dumars.

Who would a star offensive player rather go up against? Joe Dumars, John Starks, Mookie Blaylock, Kevin Johnson, and Byron Scott...or Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng, Jimmy Butler, Tayshaun Prince, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, and Kevin Durant? Not to mention that individually, Pierce wasn't the greatest defender in the world, but he was solidly above average, was deceptively athletic, was incredibly strong, and he was a legit 6'6"...and those Celtics defenses were always about KG first and foremost anyway, with Tony Allen off the bench in 08 and 10.

Oh no doubt but cmon if we're gonna do that then someday we're gonna minimize todays players cuz they didn't grow up in a world where guys like Giannis at SF were normal, or PFs the size of KP. Jordan held a physical advantgae in his time. Most once in a generation players do. It's like when people minimize Wilt cuz he was 7'2. They can't help that, all they can do is dominate what's in front of them.

Jordan was a dominant SG in an era of Cs and PFs. You could say that proves he didn't have competition or you can say he broke the mold. Perspective.

[bigbreakfast]

Dirk had a great postseason but he actually wasn't that great in the Finals. Good, but not a performance for the ages. Not to take any credit away from him or the Mavs, but LeBron was really terrible in those Finals.

I... are you serious? Dirk was dominant that series.

I'm not sure if MJ went against better competition, but he went against a different era of competition that was tougher in some aspects and lacking in other aspects compared to the current. I think of him as GOAT because he always seemed to rise to the occasion when it counted and did enough to go 6/6 in the finals.

I... are you serious? Dirk was pretty good that series.

I watched every minute of every game. He shot something like 40% on the series, in the closeout game he scored 21 on 9/27 shooting. 100% stand by my original statement, it was not an individual performance for the ages. It was a team performance for the ages, and an upset for the ages, but Dirk individually has had much better moments, including the western conference finals that same season.

I don't think cherry picking stats and taking them out of context represents the true value of a performance. as you yourself said, he was good, but those stats are anything but good. I watched that series closely too and thought he made huge plays time after time when it counted to get them wins and ultimately the ring.

[ILOVEIT]

I think if you took the Bulls and had them running with these rules these days....they would be about like the Warriors....ripping through other teams....destroying teams... They had the three point shooting....and they would just shift the style to shooting more of those. Man..imagine in the style played today...Jordan and Pippen defending and running....ouch.

[airyak13]

...I'm pretty sure Magic had already contrated HIV by that time anyway...

I love how you casually just dropped this in.

[NaturalBuns]

Different rules in a different era impossible debate. In my opinion as long as MJ or Kobe have a young Phil Jackson they do the same damage. It's not just about the player they had arguably the goat coach.

[GlenRiceARoni]

No way. The competition in this era is much higher. It's not even close. Even guys coming off the bench are tough players.

Most of it has to do with the growth of the International game and the sheer amount of money involved in professional athletics. It's really increased the effort people are willing to put forth. Guys act like professionals just to try to get a piece and then stay in the league

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Excited about the Playoffs now that Durant has given other teams a fighting chance

[therealbig3]

People will always try to minimize those knick teams but if I had to pick a team from the near present that would've been what the Knicks were it probably wouldve been actually the more recent Chicago Bulls when Noah and Rose were in thier prime. Obviously not the exact makeup, or star was a C thiers was a PG. But still it was a team that played as one rugged suffocating defense with one true star to look up to. Now you simply will never win a title just relying on that but they had just about the sane impact. A perennial near contender that would get snuffed out by that eras version of Lebron. Nope, they didn't have what it takes to win the title but to say it like they weren't a great team of thier time is just not reality.

Except those Knicks teams defended Jordan with a 6'3" John Starks.

Meanwhile, those Bulls teams had Luol Deng, and more recently, Jimmy Butler.

That's kind of the theme of Jordan's career, he went up against tiny defenders that he could shoot over or bully in the post, because pretty much everyone that was his size didn't have the lateral quickness or the defensive talent (Miller and Drexler weren't ever considered great defenders) to stay with Jordan.

Even those vaunted Pistons defenses...mainly defended Jordan with 6'2" Joe Dumars.

Who would a star offensive player rather go up against? Joe Dumars, John Starks, Mookie Blaylock, Kevin Johnson, and Byron Scott...or Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng, Jimmy Butler, Tayshaun Prince, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, and Kevin Durant? Not to mention that individually, Pierce wasn't the greatest defender in the world, but he was solidly above average, was deceptively athletic, was incredibly strong, and he was a legit 6'6"...and those Celtics defenses were always about KG first and foremost anyway, with Tony Allen off the bench in 08 and 10.

Oh no doubt but cmon if we're gonna do that then someday we're gonna minimize todays players cuz they didn't grow up in a world where guys like Giannis at SF were normal, or PFs the size of KP. Jordan held a physical advantgae in his time. Most once in a generation players do. It's like when people minimize Wilt cuz he was 7'2. They can't help that, all they can do is dominate what's in front of them.

Jordan was a dominant SG in an era of Cs and PFs. You could say that proves he didn't have competition or you can say he broke the mold. Perspective.

It's not about minimizing, it's about contextualizing. If after LeBron retires, there's a surge of defensive talent at the position, and of course, defensive improvements that naturally occur over time, then when you compare the next great perimeter star to LeBron, then you absolutely need to consider the tougher defensive environment that perimeter star played in, compared to LeBron. Similarly, it's important to contextualize the lack of defensive talent that Jordan had to face in the playoffs, along with weaker team defense in general, the relative lack of talent in the NBA due to rapid expansion and the pre-Euro surge, and the fact that the Bulls were pretty much always the most talented team on the court. I mean, they won 55 games and a playoff series, and went to game 7 in the 2nd round, without Jordan. What LeBron-led team could ever do that? Imagine if Kobe retired after the 09 season, and the Lakers went on to win 50+ games and make it to game 7 of the 2nd round without him the very next year...would Kobe's "impact" not have gotten scrutinized and questioned by the vast majority of people?

The thing is, Jordan is deified to such an extent that nobody questions these things about him, but only question the later superstars, and thus it perpetuates this myth that Jordan somehow didn't have his own advantages and lucky situations that went his way as well.

[RingsDontLie]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

[RGM_SU]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

I love how you are disparaging James (and Jordan) for the lack of competition while conveniently forgetting that the Western Conference in the 1980s was like the East of recent memory. One dominant team, and a bunch of teams that had no shot at contending.

[mysticOscar]

Were the Knicks legit competition? I mean, they struggled to beat the jordanless bulls in '94, so that's telling. People like to say that Jordan denied Ewing a ring, but Pippen nearly had the capacity to as well.

People will always try to minimize those knick teams but if I had to pick a team from the near present that would've been what the Knicks were it probably wouldve been actually the more recent Chicago Bulls when Noah and Rose were in thier prime. Obviously not the exact makeup, or star was a C thiers was a PG. But still it was a team that played as one rugged suffocating defense with one true star to look up to. Now you simply will never win a title just relying on that but they had just about the sane impact. A perennial near contender that would get snuffed out by that eras version of Lebron. Nope, they didn't have what it takes to win the title but to say it like they weren't a great team of thier time is just not reality.

Except those Knicks teams defended Jordan with a 6'3" John Starks.

Meanwhile, those Bulls teams had Luol Deng, and more recently, Jimmy Butler.

That's kind of the theme of Jordan's career, he went up against tiny defenders that he could shoot over or bully in the post, because pretty much everyone that was his size didn't have the lateral quickness or the defensive talent (Miller and Drexler weren't ever considered great defenders) to stay with Jordan.

Even those vaunted Pistons defenses...mainly defended Jordan with 6'2" Joe Dumars.

Who would a star offensive player rather go up against? Joe Dumars, John Starks, Mookie Blaylock, Kevin Johnson, and Byron Scott...or Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng, Jimmy Butler, Tayshaun Prince, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, and Kevin Durant? Not even close imo, definitely the former would be the easier path. Those guys are just too little. Not to mention that individually, Pierce wasn't the greatest defender in the world, but he was solidly above average, was deceptively athletic, was incredibly strong, and he was a legit 6'6"...and those Celtics defenses were always about KG first and foremost anyway, with Tony Allen off the bench in 08 and 10.

Perimeter defensive talent was SERIOUSLY lacking during Jordan's prime...the best perimeter defender in the league was on Jordan's team (Pippen). Defensive rule changes being what they are as well, it's impossible for a dominant 1 on 1 scorer to be allowed to go 1 on 1 nowadays, but Jordan was allowed to.

Funnily enough though, nobody EVER mentions this. Jordan predictably abusing Byron Scott and Kevin Johnson is somehow glorified. I mean, yes, it's incredibly impressive that he was dropping 30-40+ points like it was nothing, but he wasn't getting a lot of resistance, let's be honest. Probably the GOAT, but everyone acts like his career was flawless. If you put him under the same microscope that LeBron gets put under, Jordan's career wasn't flawless either.

I'm sorry, but this post is a great example of how ones coloured glasses taints reality.

Perimeter defense is sooooo great today, that todays perimter players are averaging the most pts in general in the NBA history. The perimeter players are also averging the most efficient scoring in the NBA history. Not only that, these perimeter players seems to be getting smaller and smaller. Heck, we had a 20 yo scoring 70 pts the other day, Westbrook averaging a triple double, Isiah Thomas who is not even 6ft 3rd in the points per game leader board.

But MJ, who is taller, have better fundamental skills would have struggled against todays defenders.

What fairy land do you live in??

[mysticOscar]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

Todays league have a pandemic of tanking teams, influx of 19 yo skipping years in college and coming early to the NBA, and superstars missing 10-15 games are year due to being rested. You don't think todays league is watered down also?

Also, Kobe over Lebron? What excuse could you possibly come up with to have Kobe over Lebron? It's not like Lebron hasn't won a championship where he was clearly the best player. He has 3 of them.

[RingsDontLie]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

I love how you are disparaging James (and Jordan) for the lack of competition while conveniently forgetting that the Western Conference in the 1980s was like the East of recent memory. One dominant team, and a bunch of teams that had no shot at contending.

Before I respond do you have an in depth understanding of the western conference teams in the 80s? If so how? I don't remember them having league pass in the 80s. There are quite a few top 50 players all time in the 80s that came out of the west.

Todays league have a pandemic of tanking teams, influx of 19 yo skipping years in college and coming early to the NBA, and superstars missing 10-15 games are year due to being rested. You don't think todays league is watered down also?

Also, Kobe over Lebron? What excuse could you possibly come up with to have Kobe over Lebron? It's not like Lebron hasn't won a championship where he was clearly the best player. He has 3 of them.

Well the thing is there are good examples of straight out of H.S. players of recent memory...namely Kobe, Lebron, and KG that I can think of from the top of my head. It's not necessarily bad to do that. Watered down comes from the 4 team expansion as the Jordan Bulls started their reign. All the great players were aged out/on the decline in their 30s...Isiah, Bird, Magic due to HIV, etc. Note that this is the 80s so they probably didn't have the modern ways of extending their careers like they can today. Jordan was really lucky in that sense.

As for Kobe it's 5 rings versus Lebron's 3 rings. Kobe was a franchise player in all 5 of those rings before the Horry comment comes, lol. Always gotta que the Horry rings argument And the only reason Kobe didn't get all 5 fmvps is because no one in history beats Shaq's peak and dominance in that time. Nobody.

[RGM_SU]

Before I respond do you have an in depth understanding of the western conference teams in the 80s? If so how? I don't remember them having league pass in the 80s. There are quite a few top 50 players all time in the 80s that came out of the west.

Records of the Lakers's WC playoff opponents 1980-89:

1980: Suns 55-27, Sonics 56-26
1981: Rockets 40-42 (loss)
1982: Suns 46-36, Spurs 48-34
1983: Blazers 46-36, Spurs 53-29
1984: Kings 38-44, Mavs 43-39, Suns 41-41
1985: Suns 36-46, Blazers 42-40, Nuggets 52-30
1986: Spurs 35-47, Mavs 44-38, Rockets 51-31 (loss)
1987: Nuggets 37-45, Warriors 42-40, Sonics 39-43
1988: Spurs 31-51, Jazz 47-35, Mavs 53-29
1989: Blazers 39-43, Sonics 47-35, Suns 55-27

The Western Conference in the 1980s only had the Lakers as contenders. Meanwhile in the East you had the Celtics, 76ers and Bucks (later Pistons) slugging it out for the right to move on to the Finals. Of course there are top-50 players in the West considering that the league only had like 23 teams back then. But the best players in the early-mid 80s were either playing on the Lakers or in the East, especially true after Moses Malone got traded to the 76ers.

[mysticOscar]

Todays league have a pandemic of tanking teams, influx of 19 yo skipping years in college and coming early to the NBA, and superstars missing 10-15 games are year due to being rested. You don't think todays league is watered down also?

Also, Kobe over Lebron? What excuse could you possibly come up with to have Kobe over Lebron? It's not like Lebron hasn't won a championship where he was clearly the best player. He has 3 of them.

Well the thing is there are good examples of straight out of H.S. players of recent memory...namely Kobe, Lebron, and KG that I can think of from the top of my head. It's not necessarily bad to do that. Watered down comes from the 4 team expansion as the Jordan Bulls started their reign. All the great players were aged out/on the decline in their 30s...Isiah, Bird, Magic due to HIV, etc. Note that this is the 80s so they probably didn't have the modern ways of extending their careers like they can today. Jordan was really lucky in that sense.

As for Kobe it's 5 rings versus Lebron's 3 rings. Kobe was a franchise player in all 5 of those rings before the Horry comment comes, lol. Always gotta que the Horry rings argument And the only reason Kobe didn't get all 5 fmvps is because no one in history beats Shaq's peak and dominance in that time. Nobody.

Not straight out of high school, i mean college players who do a 1 year stint and opt out to be drafted to the NBA. It's now a common theme for a 19 yo to opt out after 1 year in college to be drafted in the NBA vs 21 yo in the 80s and early 90s. So we have this massive influx of players now in the NBA who have barely have any college experience playing in the league. For me, THAT HAS A WORSE EFFECT THAN THOSE EXPANSION TEAMS IN THE 90s. To compound this, we now have an epidemic of teams that tank hard to get those 19yo's in there draft picks.

For the 80s apart from Bird...Magic was still in his prim in 91, so was Isaiah. There teams started to tail off, but that's not something you can hold against Jordan is it? It's like saying, Lebron doesn't deserve his championships because the Celtics and Kobe's Lakers got old. Or Shaq and Kobe's rings in the early 00s is not well deserved because Jordan's Bulls broke up in 1998 and they didnt get to play them as a pair against them.

I really find that people like you (and there are many) try to play down Jordan unfairly that we get to a stage where we use unreasonable context just to put down Jordan.

Regarding Kobe vs Lebron...Kobe's rings no longer hold that much weight against Lebron. Lebron has clearly been a more dominant player individually and the 3 rings he has clearly just as impressive (imo more) than Kobes 5.

[Froob]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

What aspects of the game is Kobe better than LeBron? Can really only argue scoring in the post.

[mixerball]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

What aspects of the game is Kobe better than LeBron? Can really only argue scoring in the post.

Record vs 50-win playoff teams

Jordan 20-7
Hakeem 10-9
Shaq 18-9
Kobe 25-10
Duncan 18-10
Lebron 11-6

[wizfactor94]

to many people are in love with name value these days in the NBA.

Back then a lot of good players existed, and these players were mostly good at both sides of the ball, maybe not great on offense as some today but i'd take mind 90's late 90's early 2000's teams over today's soft era.

The game would be so different.....you might think Golden St would wipe most teams out but Id bet money that would not be the case.

These soft guards would not be doing what they are doing.

Either they would have got hurt on purpose or limited by defense in which the rules were fair.....now you can't do crap.

[Froob]

No he didn't. That's one of the reasons why I have Magic ahead of Michael Jordan because of his watered down era and expansion teams. Lebron also suffers from weak competition in the East as well which is why I have to give Kobe the nod over Lebron at times when I really think about it.

What aspects of the game is Kobe better than LeBron? Can really only argue scoring in the post.

Record vs 50-win playoff teams

Jordan 20-7
Hakeem 10-9
Shaq 18-9
Kobe 25-10
Duncan 18-10
Lebron 11-6

LeBron's teammates have let him down so many times. Wade and Bosh were horrific vs the Spurs in the rematch and his #2 guy in the first series vs the Dubs was Dellavadova. The whole Cleveland first stint was a joke.