2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

HotRocks34 · Post #1541 » by **HotRocks34** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:12 pm

Westbrook now at 36 triple-doubles for the season through 72 games played.

Needs 6 more in the final 10 games to break the record. Won't be easy, but it seems possible for him.

Westbrook well on track to average a triple-double while leading the league in scoring.

Westbrook better in PPG, RPG, PER, RPM, On/Off
Harden better in APG, WS48 and team wins

Westbrook appears to be having the superior season, but the team wins factor appears as though it will carry the day for Harden in the MVP vote.

Screwston · Post #1542 » by **Screwston** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:15 pm

HotRocks34 wrote:Westbrook now at 36 triple-doubles for the season through 72 games played.

Needs 6 more in the final 10 games to break the record. Won't be easy, but it seems possible for him.

Westbrook well on track to average a triple-double while leading the league in scoring.

Westbrook better in PPG, RPG, PER, RPM, On/Off
Harden better in APG, WS48 and team wins

Westbrook appears to be having the superior season, but the team wins factor appears as though it will carry the day for Harden in the MVP vote.

Yea he totally stat padded today tho. Harden didn't need to try hard, his team was up by 20 most of the game. While wb got most of his when nobody cared

Tritodian · Post #1543 » by **Tritodian** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:38 pm

IG2 wrote:Westbrook's simply the better player. Harden just has the much better team.

Did you even watch the game? Most of Westbrook's points came in garbage time. Box score wise it looks as if Westbrook had a better game, but Harden was on fire in 3Q and the Rockets were up by like 25 points by then.

Gil · Post #1544 » by **Gil** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:09 pm

After 3 quarters

Harden 7/12
20 points
12 Assists

Westbrook 6/14
21 Points
10 Assists
Rockets winning 20+

It's clear who watches the Box score & who actually watches games.

BallerTalk · Post #1545 » by **BallerTalk** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:21 pm

Listening to some of the talking heads before the game today I got the sense that some of them really want to give the MVP to Westbrook and they were hoping for him to give them a reason to justify doing so.

But James Harden just REFUSES to cooperate. :lol:

Gil · Post #1546 » by **Gil** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:22 am

Read on Twitter

StepBackCrack · Post #1547 » by **StepBackCrack** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:34 am

Some people (or probably many) are just salty that Harden is gonna win the MVP this season I think. That wasn't what most fans wanted at the start of the season. Fans felt so bad for Russ and the most popular NBA expected storyline for season was "Russ explodes averaging triple double and wins the MVP after KD leaving to show how great he is". People never saw Harden's insane MVP run coming before this season. He came out of nowhere overshadowing Russ's best season in his career. No wonder many fans are not happy. They are like, "Russ is the MVP!! Harden winning it wasn't the plan!" lol.

"Nobody panics when things go according to plan. If I told you at the start of the season that Russell Westbrook is gonna win the MVP averaging a triple double, nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say someone who isn't even on an all NBA team in 2015-2016 will win the MVP in 2017, everybody loses their minds!"

Post #1548 » by **ken6199** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:02 am

KD_Steph wrote:Some people (or probably many) are just salty that Harden is gonna win the MVP this season I think. That wasn't what most fans wanted at the start of the season. Fans felt so bad for Russ and the most popular NBA expected storyline for season was "Russ explodes averaging triple double and wins the MVP after KD leaving to show great he is". People never saw Harden's insane MVP run coming before this season. He came out of nowhere overshadowing Russ's best season in his career. No wonder many fans are not happy. They are like, "Russ is the MVP!! Harden winning it wasn't the plan!" lol.

"Nobody panics when things go according to plan. If I told you at the start of the season that Russell Westbrook is gonna win the MVP averaging a triple double, nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say someone who isn't even on an all NBA team in 2015-2016 will win the MVP in 2017, everybody loses their minds!"

It's sort of the reverse last season, where Westbrook made a big charge final 5 games of the season to take the scoring title away from Harden, by a hair. One can imagine if Harden had the scoring title, at least he would've been selected to the all NBA 3rd team. Has there ever been a scoring champion who also averages 8 assists 7 boards that didn't make all NBA 3 teams? Whether those 'some people' like it or not, it's a true blessing to the league that there are multiple super stars putting up MVP races year after year, with the few exception like last years Curry on a 73W team. Even if a player has a career year with historical number, it's not a lock that he will win the MVP. It's a pity for WB fans, me being one of them, but as basketball fans, we can only appreciate that.

StepBackCrack · Post #1549 » by **StepBackCrack** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:08 am

ken6199 wrote:
KD_Steph wrote:Some people (or probably many) are just salty that Harden is gonna win the MVP this season I think. That wasn't what most fans wanted at the start of the season. Fans felt so bad for Russ and the most popular NBA expected storyline for season was "Russ explodes averaging triple double and wins the MVP after KD leaving to show great he is". People never saw Harden's insane MVP run coming before this season. He came out of nowhere overshadowing Russ's best season in his career. No wonder many fans are not happy. They are like, "Russ is the MVP!! Harden winning it wasn't the plan!" lol.

"Nobody panics when things go according to plan. If I told you at the start of the season that Russell Westbrook is gonna win the MVP averaging a triple double, nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say someone who isn't even on an all NBA team in 2015-2016 will win the MVP in 2017, everybody loses their minds!"

It's sort of the reverse last season, where Westbrook made a big charge final 5 games of the season to take the scoring title away from Harden, by a hair. One can imagine if Harden had the scoring title, at least he would've been selected to the all NBA 3rd team. Has there ever been a scoring champion who also averages 8 assists 7 boards that didn't make all NBA 3 teams? Whether those 'some people' like it or not, it's a true blessing to the league that there are multiple super stars putting up MVP races year after year, with the few exception like last years Curry on a 73W team. Even if a player has a career year with historical number, it's not a lock that he will win the MVP. It's a pity for WB fans, me being one of them, but as basketball fans, we can only appreciate that.

True and it's not like Russ is the only great player who is having his best season and not win an MVP for it. Wade, despite being a greater player, never won an MVP after all. It's because he was competing with other all-time great players at the same time obviously. But yeah I agree, the MVP race being this competitive is always good for the game.

Fico92 · Post #1550 » by **Fico92** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:27 am

KD_Steph wrote:People never saw Harden's insane MVP run coming before this season.

I guess if you didn't watch Basketball when he was competing for Currys first MVP award, with a lot of people saying he deserved it...

Oh, and this:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13298307/james-harden-named-mvp-nbpa-first-annual-players-awards

StepBackCrack · Post #1551 » by **StepBackCrack** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:42 am

Fico92 wrote:
KD_Steph wrote:People never saw Harden's insane MVP run coming before this season.

I guess if you didn't watch Basketball when he was competing for Currys first MVP award, with a lot of people saying he deserved it...

Oh, and this:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13298307/james-harden-named-mvp-nbpa-first-annual-players-awards

Oh I meant after the 2015-2016 season when Harden didn't make an All NBA team and the hype over Russ having an MVP season, without KD, was peaking. The talk was all about Russ before the start of the season. Harden and Rockets weren't really expected to do this great before the start of the season. IIRC OKC was infact expected to do better than HOU and most if not all expected Russ to do better than James this season but James proved people wrong and peaked. I'm not even sure there is one single HOU fan expected such success from this team and this MVP run from Harden before the start of the season.

However, if you look at Harden's 2015 MVP run, then yes, this run by him isn't that surprising. I agree there.

K_chile22 · Post #1552 » by **K_chile22** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:52 am

KD_Steph wrote:I'm not even sure there is one single HOU fan expected such success from this team and this MVP run from Harden before the start of the season.

Yup. I optimistically had then for 48 wins. They've got 51 win 9 games to go. I thought 55-ish was a pipe dream and thought Harden would end up around 29-8-7

Gil · Post #1553 » by **Gil** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:10 am

I was actually 100% certain Harden would win the MVP. I knew now that he finally had a competent coach, Dwight gone & adequate help for the first time in his Rockets career he'd put up insane numbers & lead Houston to 55+ wins.

Gil wrote:Harden is winning MVP like he should've 2 seasons ago. He has a real shot of averaging 30/10 this year.

viewtopic.php?p=49377162#p49377162

I saw all the vitriolic hate he got for last season as well as the way he was snubbed from the All-NBA team & knew it would quickly mature him into the leader he's never been & give him all the motivation he needed to prove them wrong.

I don't even think this is his true potential. A part of me still feels he's holding back & is pacing himself for the Playoffs. :lol:

therealbig3 · Post #1554 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:18 am

What was Harden's argument over Curry in 2015? I keep seeing he should have won in 2015, but Curry's argument over Harden is pretty much exactly the same as Harden's argument over Westbrook now...except Westbrook is putting up better numbers (if you look at something like PER), while Harden didn't even have that going for him vs Curry in 2015.

Nobody expected the Warriors to explode for 67 wins and the #1 seed coming into that year either.

Post #1555 » by **ken6199** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:23 am

K_chile22 wrote:
KD_Steph wrote:I'm not even sure there is one single HOU fan expected such success from this team and this MVP run from Harden before the start of the season.

Yup. I optimistically had then for 48 wins. They've got 51 win 9 games to go. I thought 55-ish was a pipe dream and thought Harden would end up around 29-8-7

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1462460#p48508680

wonkrazyz28 · Post #1556 » by **wonkrazyz28** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:47 am

therealbig3 wrote:What was Harden's argument over Curry in 2015? I keep seeing he should have won in 2015, but Curry's argument over Harden is pretty much exactly the same as Harden's argument over Westbrook now...except Westbrook is putting up better numbers (if you look at something like PER), while Harden didn't even have that going for him vs Curry in 2015.

Nobody expected the Warriors to explode for 67 wins and the #1 seed coming into that year either.

Harden that year nearly single handedly carried the Rockets to 56 wins and the 3rd best record in the league despite the majority of the starters missing significant time due to injuries. The "starting five" that year only played about 10 games together.

Only Harden and Ariza played 81/82 games that year (Harden suspended 1 game)

Rest of the team missed near half of the season besides Dontas Montejunes (71)
Howard - 41 games
Beverly - 56 games
Terence Jones - 33 games
Josh Smith - 55 games

At times it was James Harden playing with Jason Terry, Kostas Papanikolaou, Joey Dorsey, and Trevor Ariza.

Meanwhile, Curry had a near 100% healthy roster and only won 11 more games than Houston while putting up inferior numbers across the board. The biggest argument then was he was "best player on the best team" so he deserved the award more. 56 Wins is nothing to shake at, especially in the west and they did have the 3rd best record in the NBA. Hawks won 60 games in the Eastern conference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html

Honestly, I feel Harden should have won it. He was runner up and did get the players MVP award, but whatever. It is what it is. Curry's 2nd was a no brainier though.

therealbig3 · Post #1557 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:00 am

wonkrazyz28 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:What was Harden's argument over Curry in 2015? I keep seeing he should have won in 2015, but Curry's argument over Harden is pretty much exactly the same as Harden's argument over Westbrook now...except Westbrook is putting up better numbers (if you look at something like PER), while Harden didn't even have that going for him vs Curry in 2015.

Nobody expected the Warriors to explode for 67 wins and the #1 seed coming into that year either.

Harden that year nearly single handedly carried the Rockets to 56 wins despite the majorty of the starters missing significant time due to injuries. The "starting five" that year only played about 10 games together.

Only Harden and Ariza played 81/82 games that year (Harden suspended 1 game)

Rest of the team missed half of the season besides Dontas Montejunes (71)
Howard - 41 games
Beverly - 56 games
Terence Jones - 33 games
Josh Smith - 55 games

At times it was James Harden playing with Jason Terry, Kostas Papanikolaou, Joey Dorsey, and Trevor Ariza.

Meanwhile, Curry had a near 100% healthy roster and only won 11 more games than Houston while putting up inferior numbers across the board. A lot of people feel he won it only because it potentially was a case of the "best player on the best team" award.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html

Honestly, I feel Harden should have won it. He was runner up, but whatever. It is what it is. Curry's 2nd was a no brainier though.

Well, "only won 11 more games"...that's a significant difference once you're talking about winning close to 70 games. 67 wins vs 56 wins is WAY different than something like 32 wins vs 21 wins. It's extremely difficult to win that many more games once you're already at 50+.

And their numbers were pretty similar adjusted to per 36...Harden was playing 4 more mpg though. Curry also had better percentages and was the more efficient offensive player. His PER was higher too. And Curry played better defense. And he was better in terms of on/off and RPM.

Much better team, comparable production, and overall higher impact. I don't really think it's fair to act like Curry over Harden was some sort of travesty, or that Harden was robbed. His stats weren't that much better, if at all, and there's a bigger gap between the 15 Warriors and the 15 Rockets than there is between the 17 Rockets and the 17 Thunder.

Post #1558 » by **ken6199** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:08 am

wonkrazyz28 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:What was Harden's argument over Curry in 2015? I keep seeing he should have won in 2015, but Curry's argument over Harden is pretty much exactly the same as Harden's argument over Westbrook now...except Westbrook is putting up better numbers (if you look at something like PER), while Harden didn't even have that going for him vs Curry in 2015.

Nobody expected the Warriors to explode for 67 wins and the #1 seed coming into that year either.

Harden that year nearly single handedly carried the Rockets to 56 wins and the 3rd best record in the league despite the majority of the starters missing significant time due to injuries. The "starting five" that year only played about 10 games together.

Only Harden and Ariza played 81/82 games that year (Harden suspended 1 game)

Rest of the team missed near half of the season besides Dontas Montejunes (71)
Howard - 41 games
Beverly - 56 games
Terence Jones - 33 games
Josh Smith - 55 games

At times it was James Harden playing with Jason Terry, Kostas Papanikolaou, Joey Dorsey, and Trevor Ariza.

Meanwhile, Curry had a near 100% healthy roster and only won 11 more games than Houston while putting up inferior numbers across the board. The biggest argument then was he was "best player on the best team" so he deserved the award more. 56 Wins is nothing to shake at, especially in the west and they did have the 3rd best record in the NBA. Hawks won 60 games in the Eastern conference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html

Honestly, I feel Harden should have won it. He was runner up and did get the players MVP award, but whatever. It is what it is. Curry's 2nd was a no brainier though.

QFT.

To add, they had the following players play that many games for them that year:
- Nick Johnson 28
- Isiah Cannan 25 (start 9)
- Clint Capela 12
- Francisco Garcia 14
- Tarik Black 25 (start 12)
- Palbo Prigioni (24)

Those are either essentially rookies or 80 yo veterans. I am not sure whether this supporting cast was better than what OKC has now, and Harden took them to 56W.

This "Curry over Harden 14-15 is just like Harden over Westbrook 16-17" need to be put to rest. Two different things.

HotTubMike · Post #1559 » by **HotTubMike** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:24 am

therealbig3 wrote:
wonkrazyz28 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:What was Harden's argument over Curry in 2015? I keep seeing he should have won in 2015, but Curry's argument over Harden is pretty much exactly the same as Harden's argument over Westbrook now...except Westbrook is putting up better numbers (if you look at something like PER), while Harden didn't even have that going for him vs Curry in 2015.

Nobody expected the Warriors to explode for 67 wins and the #1 seed coming into that year either.

Harden that year nearly single handedly carried the Rockets to 56 wins despite the majorty of the starters missing significant time due to injuries. The "starting five" that year only played about 10 games together.

Only Harden and Ariza played 81/82 games that year (Harden suspended 1 game)

Rest of the team missed half of the season besides Dontas Montejunes (71)
Howard - 41 games
Beverly - 56 games
Terence Jones - 33 games
Josh Smith - 55 games

At times it was James Harden playing with Jason Terry, Kostas Papanikolaou, Joey Dorsey, and Trevor Ariza.

Meanwhile, Curry had a near 100% healthy roster and only won 11 more games than Houston while putting up inferior numbers across the board. A lot of people feel he won it only because it potentially was a case of the "best player on the best team" award.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html

Honestly, I feel Harden should have won it. He was runner up, but whatever. It is what it is. Curry's 2nd was a no brainier though.

Well, "only won 11 more games"...that's a significant difference once you're talking about winning close to 70 games. 67 wins vs 56 wins is WAY different than something like 32 wins vs 21 wins. It's extremely difficult to win that many more games once you're already at 50+.

And their numbers were pretty similar adjusted to per 36...Harden was playing 4 more mpg though. Curry also had better percentages and was the more efficient offensive player. His PER was higher too. And Curry played better defense. And he was better in terms of on/off and RPM.

Much better team, comparable production, and overall higher impact. I don't really think it's fair to act like Curry over Harden was some sort of travesty, or that Harden was robbed. His stats weren't that much better, if at all, and there's a bigger gap between the 15 Warriors and the 15 Rockets than there is between the 17 Rockets and the 17 Thunder.

Obvious agenda is obvious.

You didn't even really address the major argument... Curry played on the GOAT team perhaps and Harden carried a sack nothing to 56 wins.

Recognize.

therealbig3 · Post #1560 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:29 am

HotTubMike wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
wonkrazyz28 wrote:Harden that year nearly single handedly carried the Rockets to 56 wins despite the majorty of the starters missing significant time due to injuries. The "starting five" that year only played about 10 games together.

Only Harden and Ariza played 81/82 games that year (Harden suspended 1 game)

Rest of the team missed half of the season besides Dontas Montejunes (71)
Howard - 41 games
Beverly - 56 games
Terence Jones - 33 games
Josh Smith - 55 games

At times it was James Harden playing with Jason Terry, Kostas Papanikolaou, Joey Dorsey, and Trevor Ariza.

Meanwhile, Curry had a near 100% healthy roster and only won 11 more games than Houston while putting up inferior numbers across the board. A lot of people feel he won it only because it potentially was a case of the "best player on the best team" award.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html

Honestly, I feel Harden should have won it. He was runner up, but whatever. It is what it is. Curry's 2nd was a no brainier though.

Well, "only won 11 more games"...that's a significant difference once you're talking about winning close to 70 games. 67 wins vs 56 wins is WAY different than something like 32 wins vs 21 wins. It's extremely difficult to win that many more games once you're already at 50+.

And their numbers were pretty similar adjusted to per 36...Harden was playing 4 more mpg though. Curry also had better percentages and was the more efficient offensive player. His PER was higher too. And Curry played better defense. And he was better in terms of on/off and RPM.

Much better team, comparable production, and overall higher impact. I don't really think it's fair to act like Curry over Harden was some sort of travesty, or that Harden was robbed. His stats weren't that much better, if at all, and there's a bigger gap between the 15 Warriors and the 15 Rockets than there is between the 17 Rockets and the 17 Thunder.

Obvious agenda is obvious.

You didn't even really address the major argument... Curry played on the GOAT team perhaps and Harden carried a sack nothing to 56 wins.

Recognize.

I did address it...Harden had a worse team...and he predictably had worse results. How does this prove anything about who should be MVP? 67 wins vs 56 wins is a colossal difference.

Numbers-wise, they were comparable, while Curry actually did better in terms of +/-.

Harden wasn't robbed that year...Rockets fans really need to let it go.

Who will win MVP?