2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

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Who will win MVP?

Curry
12
3%
Durant
3
1%
Harden
112
31%
LeBron
42
12%
Leonard
60
17%
Westbrook
109
30%
Other
20
6%
 
Total votes: 358

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1561 » by HotTubMike » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:35 am

therealbig3 wrote:
HotTubMike wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
Well, "only won 11 more games"...that's a significant difference once you're talking about winning close to 70 games. 67 wins vs 56 wins is WAY different than something like 32 wins vs 21 wins. It's extremely difficult to win that many more games once you're already at 50+.

And their numbers were pretty similar adjusted to per 36...Harden was playing 4 more mpg though. Curry also had better percentages and was the more efficient offensive player. His PER was higher too. And Curry played better defense. And he was better in terms of on/off and RPM.

Much better team, comparable production, and overall higher impact. I don't really think it's fair to act like Curry over Harden was some sort of travesty, or that Harden was robbed. His stats weren't that much better, if at all, and there's a bigger gap between the 15 Warriors and the 15 Rockets than there is between the 17 Rockets and the 17 Thunder.


Obvious agenda is obvious.

You didn't even really address the major argument... Curry played on the GOAT team perhaps and Harden carried a sack nothing to 56 wins.

Recognize.


I did address it...Harden had a worse team...and he predictably had worse results. How does this prove anything about who should be MVP? 67 wins vs 56 wins is a colossal difference.

Numbers-wise, they were comparable, while Curry actually did better in terms of +/-.

Harden wasn't robbed that year...Rockets fans really need to let it go.


You gloss over it like it's no big deal.... it was a huge deal.

The win difference isn't as big as the difference in talent... that GSW is literally the GOAT... they won 73 games the very next season...

Most of Harden's teammates from 14/15 are either out of the league or extremely marginal players.

Night and day.

His fellow players voted him for a reason.

Leading a sack of potatoes to 56 wins > leading the GOAT to 67 wins.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1562 » by HotTubMike » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:40 am

Westbrooks team isn't even that bad.... Adams, Kanter and Gibson is one of the strongest frontcourts in the entire NBA.... no other play makers (though Oladipo is apparently a max level contract combo guard entering his prime).... most every team struggles to find 2nd and 3rd option play makers... Harden didn't really have one until they went out and got Lou Williams... they needed him badly because nobody else was creating when Harden sat. Eric Gordon can to some degree but that isn't really his thing nor should it be due to injuries.... just want him to stand in one spot and shoot 3's.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1563 » by Impuniti » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:05 am

HotTubMike wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
HotTubMike wrote:
Obvious agenda is obvious.

You didn't even really address the major argument... Curry played on the GOAT team perhaps and Harden carried a sack nothing to 56 wins.

Recognize.


I did address it...Harden had a worse team...and he predictably had worse results. How does this prove anything about who should be MVP? 67 wins vs 56 wins is a colossal difference.

Numbers-wise, they were comparable, while Curry actually did better in terms of +/-.

Harden wasn't robbed that year...Rockets fans really need to let it go.


You gloss over it like it's no big deal.... it was a huge deal.

The win difference isn't as big as the difference in talent... that GSW is literally the GOAT... they won 73 games the very next season...

Most of Harden's teammates from 14/15 are either out of the league or extremely marginal players.

Night and day.

His fellow players voted him for a reason.

Leading a sack of potatoes to 56 wins > leading the GOAT to 67 wins.

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1564 » by laika » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:43 am

HotTubMike wrote:The win difference isn't as big as the difference in talent... that GSW is literally the GOAT... they won 73 games the very next season...

Most of Harden's teammates from 14/15 are either out of the league or extremely marginal players.

Night and day.

His fellow players voted him for a reason.

Leading a sack of potatoes to 56 wins > leading the GOAT to 67 wins.


First, virtually no one believes that the Warriors are actually the GOAT.
More importantly, they are getting that close to GOAT status mainly because of Curry. All three years the Warriors have totally collapsed when Curry is not in the game. The Warrior "system" is Curry.
The players were wrong on that vote. Curry was more valuable and even has a strong case for being more valuable this year as well.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1565 » by bwgood77 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:24 pm

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1566 » by TMU » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:51 pm

HotTubMike wrote:Westbrooks team isn't even that bad.... Adams, Kanter and Gibson is one of the strongest frontcourts in the entire NBA.... no other play makers (though Oladipo is apparently a max level contract combo guard entering his prime).... most every team struggles to find 2nd and 3rd option play makers... Harden didn't really have one until they went out and got Lou Williams... they needed him badly because nobody else was creating when Harden sat. Eric Gordon can to some degree but that isn't really his thing nor should it be due to injuries.... just want him to stand in one spot and shoot 3's.


Steven Adams isn't adequately and properly utilized. It bothers me so much. :banghead:
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1567 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:14 pm

I think I'm at a point where I'm only arguing for Co-MVP winners with Harden and Westbrook, or just Harden winning. From my point of view, the biggest travesty that could happen with the MVP Award is Harden not winning it for the second season where he should have been the favorite.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1568 » by ocelot17 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:30 pm

RightToCensor wrote:I think I'm at a point where I'm only arguing for Co-MVP winners with Harden and Westbrook, or just Harden winning. From my point of view, the biggest travesty that could happen with the MVP Award is Harden not winning it for the second season where he should have been the favorite.

It's sad is that harden could potentially lose the MVP again for two completely opposite reasons.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1569 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:37 pm

What are the odds we get two players in the same season that have the ability to average numbers that haven't been duplicated since Oscar Robertson. Unless you live and die by the code of advanced stats, it's splitting hairs trying to choose who is the clear better player of the two.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1570 » by CnG » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:06 pm

Ugh, enough with the Harden > Curry 2015 MVP stuff. You could make a case for JH but Curry dominated Harden in team wins, literally all advanced stats, efficiency, and H2H matchups. The players vote has no relevance either, they voted Deandre Jordan as DPOY instead of Kawhi too :lol:. All that being said, Harden was great that year too. I do see some parallels between the 2015 race and this one.

Harden should win this year, he ticks all the boxes. Been great to watch, the way he makes his team better almost seems effortless at times, he doesn't have to force it. He just lets his hot handed teammate flourish on any given night (not a shot at WB, he doesn't have that luxury but I'm not going to discredit Harden because of that).
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1571 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:07 pm

Jumping in here just to say I think the complaints about '14-15 are silly. Fine if you personally would give it to Harden but Curry's case should not be hard to understand and respect.

I'll add that anything implying the two teams successes were in any way not far apart is silly. Golden State was the best team in the league, and Houston wasn't a serious contender. Yes they got the #2 seed, and yes they miraculously got to the WCF, but both were flukes. They weren't anywhere near as dangerous as the Spurs or Clippers. This was a team that could have easily been knocked out in the first round had the last day of the season bounced slightly differently.

I say none of this to knock Harden who is my pick for MVP right now. What he did in '14-15 is nowhere near as impressive as Curry in that season, or Harden himself in this season, to me.


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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1572 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:16 pm

RightToCensor wrote:What are the odds we get two players in the same season that have the ability to average numbers that haven't been duplicated since Oscar Robertson. Unless you live and die by the code of advanced stats, it's splitting hairs trying to choose who is the clear better player of the two.


Or y'know, you might factor things in that analyze how each player actually plays and have opinions about how each approach scales to various levels of success.


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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1573 » by BallerTalk » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:42 pm

HotTubMike wrote:Westbrooks team isn't even that bad.... Adams, Kanter and Gibson is one of the strongest frontcourts in the entire NBA.... no other play makers (though Oladipo is apparently a max level contract combo guard entering his prime).... most every team struggles to find 2nd and 3rd option play makers... Harden didn't really have one until they went out and got Lou Williams... they needed him badly because nobody else was creating when Harden sat. Eric Gordon can to some degree but that isn't really his thing nor should it be due to injuries.... just want him to stand in one spot and shoot 3's.


I think you're selling Gordon way too short here.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1574 » by HotTubMike » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:47 pm

BallerTalk wrote:
HotTubMike wrote:Westbrooks team isn't even that bad.... Adams, Kanter and Gibson is one of the strongest frontcourts in the entire NBA.... no other play makers (though Oladipo is apparently a max level contract combo guard entering his prime).... most every team struggles to find 2nd and 3rd option play makers... Harden didn't really have one until they went out and got Lou Williams... they needed him badly because nobody else was creating when Harden sat. Eric Gordon can to some degree but that isn't really his thing nor should it be due to injuries.... just want him to stand in one spot and shoot 3's.


I think you're selling Gordon way too short here.


Eric Gordon is a tremendous player but the Rockets went out and got Lou Williams for a reason... they badly needed play making/scoring when Harden sat... Gordon can drive and finish and create but you don't want him doing too much of it because of his injury history.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1575 » by bwgood77 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:48 pm

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1576 » by kevC » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:54 pm

What good is a high WS/48 if he doesn't play a lot of minutes and rests a bunch of games? Attendance matters. If you're going to use WS/48 you might as well use WS.

Harden has the most WS and has played in more winning games than anyone not on the Warriors.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1577 » by Shock Defeat » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:27 pm

Rockets fans just want consistency. Curry beat Harden for the award 2 years ago, so Harden better beat Russell using the same argument.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1578 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:29 pm

Just to throw this out there, I hope we're not in a time where the opinion of media members are more valuable than NBA players when it concerns who the real MVP of a season is.

You think 99% of NBA players are on BBRef comparing advanced stats down to the decimal just to conjure who was the MVP of the league is rather than comparing how they played and contributed to wins?
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1579 » by BallerTalk » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:13 pm

HotTubMike wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
HotTubMike wrote:Westbrooks team isn't even that bad.... Adams, Kanter and Gibson is one of the strongest frontcourts in the entire NBA.... no other play makers (though Oladipo is apparently a max level contract combo guard entering his prime).... most every team struggles to find 2nd and 3rd option play makers... Harden didn't really have one until they went out and got Lou Williams... they needed him badly because nobody else was creating when Harden sat. Eric Gordon can to some degree but that isn't really his thing nor should it be due to injuries.... just want him to stand in one spot and shoot 3's.


I think you're selling Gordon way too short here.


Eric Gordon is a tremendous player but the Rockets went out and got Lou Williams for a reason... they badly needed play making/scoring when Harden sat... Gordon can drive and finish and create but you don't want him doing too much of it because of his injury history.


The Rockets acquired Lou Williams for two primary reasons:
1) Firepower.
When your stated approach is to outgun your opponent, you can never have too many weapons.
2) Insurance.
Not just for Gordon but for Beverley and Harden as well. In a guard driven league it's good to have backup.

I appreciate what Lou brings to the Rockets and this is in no way meant to devalue him, but he is not and never has been the player that Eric Gordon is.
Gordon's ability to penetrate and finish as well as make the occasional play for a teammate is valuable.
Sticking him on the perimeter and trying to turn him into a mini Ryan Anderson takes away too much of what he brings to the table.

As far as injuries, you can really worry about that. Things happen but playing scared or trying not to get injured tends to bring about a whole new set of problems of its own.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1580 » by Starboy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:17 pm

ocelot17 wrote:
RightToCensor wrote:I think I'm at a point where I'm only arguing for Co-MVP winners with Harden and Westbrook, or just Harden winning. From my point of view, the biggest travesty that could happen with the MVP Award is Harden not winning it for the second season where he should have been the favorite.

It's sad is that harden could potentially lose the MVP again for two completely opposite reasons.


It's sad the way Rockets fans are using the same argument now that they opposed 2 years ago. If you changed your mind, it's fine. Everybody makes mistakes. But at least don't bring up Harden being more deserving of the 2014-15 ever again.

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