The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

[CoachJReturns]

At the end of the day- we shouldn't be satisfied with 4th. If we don't win what's the point in all of this?

do you remember how much day to day agony is involved in rooting for a 30 win team to win or lose?

You're right. But man, those days were fun because we saw the process develop. I'm not saying that I'm ungrateful, I'm just saying that we should expect a championship especially since we're contending with the leagues top competition!

The days when we sucked but not enough to land a top 3-5 pick were not fun. They're pretty awful for the most part. Every fan who isn't clueless becomes aware of how far they probably are from having a very good team and there's not much to cheer for.

[KevinOConnorNBA]

My buddy told me my Raptors article was blowing up on Real GM and linked me, so I want to join the discussion. I didn't read through all the comments but understand the hate on the first couple pages. This comment pretty much nails the premise of the article:

It starts with the premise that Masai is a gangsta who could do anything. It quotes him admitting at the Sloan Conference that the Raptors' window could be "3 months or 3 years". The writer is suggesting that we may see a Nene-esque delayed sign and trade with Lowry. Maybe Lakers would take DeMar. I'm sure the Knicks would.

The Raptors have a GM in Masai Ujiri unafraid of making big moves all in the name of winning championships. It doesn't matter how it looks. Some of the things he said at Sloan in regards to winning were illuminating. I wish those quotes made the cut of the piece. He said he wants his teams to be like the Warriors and Cavaliers, except I think Masai wants to do even better than the Cavs do it -- the backend of Cleveland's roster is trash (and that's partially what I'm writing about next week). The Warriors understand sustainability. So do the Spurs. So does Masai. The point is that if Ujiri sense there's no hope for a title with the DeMar-Kyle core, then changes might be necessary. No matter how they're perceived by fans or media. As tecumseh18 said, Masai is a gangsta. That might mean trading one. It might mean trading both.

One of the common counterarguments to my article I've read is: the Raptors should at least give it a run for 2-3 more years. I think that's fair, but my response would be: What happens at the end of that 2–3 years? The Raptors currently have a nice collection of young talent on their bench. I love Norman Powell. Bebe is a good rotational center. Cory Joseph is exciting. Pascal Siakam is a energy big. All down the line, they have solid talent. But none of them have star qualities, in my opinion. They will also soon all become expensive. Bebe, Powell, and Caboclo are restricted free-agents in 2019. This ties into my point about the cap becoming an issue. Look at how the Cavaliers need to add vet minimum level free-agents. That's what the Raptors will have to do if they keep this core (including the Ibaka and Patterson types). Their backend talent is good, but it probably isn't quite good enough to bring back highly impactful players through trades.

Sure, the Raptors would make some more strong runs, they'd hang a few more division banners, and that's great. This core is incredibly fun. But when those 2-3 years are up, and you maybe don’t have a single Finals appearance to show for it, where is your team? Lowry is a 34-year-old $40 million point guard. DeRozan is a 30-year-old unrestricted free-agent in 2020. That's not a good spot to be in. If you decide to retool or rebuild then, their value is diminished, and therefore your ability to maximize a return is inhibited unless a team is really desperate for a guy about to be a free-agent (DeRozan) and an aging point guard (Lowry).

However, if you decide to retool or rebuild prior to the 2018 trade deadline, you maximize a return, can still have a competitive team because your young core has talent, and you can infuse top talent through two loaded draft classes in 2017 and 2018. Then, hopefully by 2020, the Raptors are ascending to an even higher level than it is today. The risks to any rebuild go without saying. The young talent you draft may become busts (like Anthony Bennett). They may become blossoming stars that get hurt (like Joel Embiid).

But I think Masai Ujiri is a unique talent evaluator and his track record of nailing draft picks and winning trades would bode well. Again, as tecumseh18 said, Masai is a gangsta. He's also an incredibly smart man and basketball talent evaluator. He will be an innovator in how teams use the new two-way contracts. Just watch. And if you don't think the thought of reshaping the roster, even in the way I imagined it for this article, trust me: you are sorely mistaken because NBA GMs go through every single possible scenario with their rosters.

Also, one last thought: like you guys, I wish opinion pieces or "takes" didn't get as many eyes as they do. I wish stuff like this did: https://theringer.com/nba-footwork-demar-derozan-giannis-antetokounmpo-jj-redick-c7819c1289b9#.va0utxzwt

That article did well and a lot of people liked it, but it didn't generate conversation like this. So, while I read a lot of complaints about my "take," I would rather have seen seven pages for the DeRozan footwork article. That's one of my favorite articles I did this year and hope you enjoy it. And thanks for commenting and reading on this article, even if you disagree with it.

[OreoRaps6]

My buddy told me my Raptors article was blowing up on Real GM and linked me, so I want to join the discussion. I didn't read through all the comments but understand the hate on the first couple pages. This comment pretty much nails the premise of the article:

It starts with the premise that Masai is a gangsta who could do anything. It quotes him admitting at the Sloan Conference that the Raptors' window could be "3 months or 3 years". The writer is suggesting that we may see a Nene-esque delayed sign and trade with Lowry. Maybe Lakers would take DeMar. I'm sure the Knicks would.

The Raptors have a GM in Masai Ujiri unafraid of making big moves all in the name of winning championships. It doesn't matter how it looks. Some of the things he said at Sloan in regards to winning were illuminating. I wish those quotes made the cut of the piece. He said he wants his teams to be like the Warriors and Cavaliers, except I think Masai wants to do even better than the Cavs do it -- the backend of Cleveland's roster is trash (and that's partially what I'm writing about next week). The Warriors understand sustainability. So do the Spurs. So does Masai. The point is that if Ujiri sense there's no hope for a title with the DeMar-Kyle core, then changes might be necessary. No matter how they're perceived by fans or media. As tecumseh18 said, Masai is a gangsta. That might mean trading one. It might mean trading both.

One of the common counterarguments to my article I've read is: the Raptors should at least give it a run for 2-3 more years. I think that's fair, but my response would be: What happens at the end of that 2–3 years? The Raptors currently have a nice collection of young talent on their bench. I love Norman Powell. Bebe is a good rotational center. Cory Joseph is exciting. Pascal Siakam is a energy big. All down the line, they have solid talent. But none of them have star qualities, in my opinion. They will also soon all become expensive. Bebe, Powell, and Caboclo are restricted free-agents in 2019. This ties into my point about the cap becoming an issue. Look at how the Cavaliers need to add vet minimum level free-agents. That's what the Raptors will have to do if they keep this core (including the Ibaka and Patterson types). Their backend talent is good, but it probably isn't quite good enough to bring back highly impactful players through trades.

Sure, the Raptors would make some more strong runs, they'd hang a few more division banners, and that's great. This core is incredibly fun. But when those 2-3 years are up, and you maybe don’t have a single Finals appearance to show for it, where is your team? Lowry is a 34-year-old $40 million point guard. DeRozan is a 30-year-old unrestricted free-agent in 2020. That's not a good spot to be in. If you decide to retool or rebuild then, their value is diminished, and therefore your ability to maximize a return is inhibited unless a team is really desperate for a guy about to be a free-agent (DeRozan) and an aging point guard (Lowry).

However, if you decide to retool or rebuild prior to the 2018 trade deadline, you maximize a return, can still have a competitive team because your young core has talent, and you can infuse top talent through two loaded draft classes in 2017 and 2018. Then, hopefully by 2020, the Raptors are ascending to an even higher level than it is today. The risks to any rebuild go without saying. The young talent you draft may become busts (like Anthony Bennett). They may become blossoming stars that get hurt (like Joel Embiid).

But I think Masai Ujiri is a unique talent evaluator and his track record of nailing draft picks and winning trades would bode well. Again, as tecumseh18 said, Masai is a gangsta. He's also an incredibly smart man and basketball talent evaluator. He will be an innovator in how teams use the new two-way contracts. Just watch. And if you don't think the thought of reshaping the roster, even in the way I imagined it for this article, trust me: you are sorely mistaken because NBA GMs go through every single possible scenario with their rosters.

Also, one last thought: like you guys, I wish opinion pieces or "takes" didn't get as many eyes as they do. I wish stuff like this did: https://theringer.com/nba-footwork-demar-derozan-giannis-antetokounmpo-jj-redick-c7819c1289b9#.va0utxzwt

That article did well and a lot of people liked it, but it didn't generate conversation like this. So, while I read a lot of complaints about my "take," I would rather have seen seven pages for the DeRozan footwork article. That's one of my favorite articles I did this year and hope you enjoy it. And thanks for commenting and reading on this article, even if you disagree with it.

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno. cmon man.

[RaptorsLife]

My buddy told me my Raptors article was blowing up on Real GM and linked me, so I want to join the discussion. I didn't read through all the comments but understand the hate on the first couple pages. This comment pretty much nails the premise of the article:

It starts with the premise that Masai is a gangsta who could do anything. It quotes him admitting at the Sloan Conference that the Raptors' window could be "3 months or 3 years". The writer is suggesting that we may see a Nene-esque delayed sign and trade with Lowry. Maybe Lakers would take DeMar. I'm sure the Knicks would.

The Raptors have a GM in Masai Ujiri unafraid of making big moves all in the name of winning championships. It doesn't matter how it looks. Some of the things he said at Sloan in regards to winning were illuminating. I wish those quotes made the cut of the piece. He said he wants his teams to be like the Warriors and Cavaliers, except I think Masai wants to do even better than the Cavs do it -- the backend of Cleveland's roster is trash (and that's partially what I'm writing about next week). The Warriors understand sustainability. So do the Spurs. So does Masai. The point is that if Ujiri sense there's no hope for a title with the DeMar-Kyle core, then changes might be necessary. No matter how they're perceived by fans or media. As tecumseh18 said, Masai is a gangsta. That might mean trading one. It might mean trading both.

One of the common counterarguments to my article I've read is: the Raptors should at least give it a run for 2-3 more years. I think that's fair, but my response would be: What happens at the end of that 2–3 years? The Raptors currently have a nice collection of young talent on their bench. I love Norman Powell. Bebe is a good rotational center. Cory Joseph is exciting. Pascal Siakam is a energy big. All down the line, they have solid talent. But none of them have star qualities, in my opinion. They will also soon all become expensive. Bebe, Powell, and Caboclo are restricted free-agents in 2019. This ties into my point about the cap becoming an issue. Look at how the Cavaliers need to add vet minimum level free-agents. That's what the Raptors will have to do if they keep this core (including the Ibaka and Patterson types). Their backend talent is good, but it probably isn't quite good enough to bring back highly impactful players through trades.

Sure, the Raptors would make some more strong runs, they'd hang a few more division banners, and that's great. This core is incredibly fun. But when those 2-3 years are up, and you maybe don’t have a single Finals appearance to show for it, where is your team? Lowry is a 34-year-old $40 million point guard. DeRozan is a 30-year-old unrestricted free-agent in 2020. That's not a good spot to be in. If you decide to retool or rebuild then, their value is diminished, and therefore your ability to maximize a return is inhibited unless a team is really desperate for a guy about to be a free-agent (DeRozan) and an aging point guard (Lowry).

However, if you decide to retool or rebuild prior to the 2018 trade deadline, you maximize a return, can still have a competitive team because your young core has talent, and you can infuse top talent through two loaded draft classes in 2017 and 2018. Then, hopefully by 2020, the Raptors are ascending to an even higher level than it is today. The risks to any rebuild go without saying. The young talent you draft may become busts (like Anthony Bennett). They may become blossoming stars that get hurt (like Joel Embiid).

But I think Masai Ujiri is a unique talent evaluator and his track record of nailing draft picks and winning trades would bode well. Again, as tecumseh18 said, Masai is a gangsta. He's also an incredibly smart man and basketball talent evaluator. He will be an innovator in how teams use the new two-way contracts. Just watch. And if you don't think the thought of reshaping the roster, even in the way I imagined it for this article, trust me: you are sorely mistaken because NBA GMs go through every single possible scenario with their rosters.

Also, one last thought: like you guys, I wish opinion pieces or "takes" didn't get as many eyes as they do. I wish stuff like this did: https://theringer.com/nba-footwork-demar-derozan-giannis-antetokounmpo-jj-redick-c7819c1289b9#.va0utxzwt

That article did well and a lot of people liked it, but it didn't generate conversation like this. So, while I read a lot of complaints about my "take," I would rather have seen seven pages for the DeRozan footwork article. That's one of my favorite articles I did this year and hope you enjoy it. And thanks for commenting and reading on this article, even if you disagree with it.

Raptors have had 6 winning seasons in 22 years existence.

I understand the championship or bust mentailty but "tredmilling" isn't bad for a franchise known as the Craptors for a long time.

This article should have been made after the playoffs or atleast after raptors get eliminated. Because this is the most talented raptors team ever. Could surprise in the playoffs

[mrsocko]

#noclick
I totally agree with Zeno. Researchers sometimes get tied to the work they do because they throw all their passion, time and effort into it. So when there are anomalies, they get frustrated or try their best to contextualize them away.

Great comment. This type of research is an Amazing observation of selective bias. Derozans free throw shooting and ability to get to the line makes him more efficient than many supposed high efficiency three point shooters.

I will give another example of this type of bias. In Egyptology there has been a debate regarding the chronologies set in place to date th third intermediate period of Egypts history.
Other societies use the Egyptian timelines to date their histories/architecture/artifacts. Each of these other societies (Greece Crete Palestine etc.) have dark ages of about 250 years within their histories where nothing happened when archaeologists search the strata at different sites they are digging.
A man named David Rohl used the ancients observations of eclipses and comets(which can be measured very accurately by modern computers) to devise a new chronology of Egyptian history. All of a sudden the dark ages disappeared from the othe societies histories. Stories such as the founding of Rome by the Trojans and the Jewish Exodus are found to be true to events and not myths as the established Archaeologists have said.

So what does Rohl get for showing the mistakes of the other Archaeologists? Ridiculed and ostracized. The other Archaeologists have vested interests in showing they are right. Who would buy a book that's been proven to be wrong.

Stats analysis is much the same. Watch Moneyball for another example of this bias.

[KevinOConnorNBA]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

[OreoRaps6]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

You just don't get it. Raptors have sucked for decades and are finally relevant. We still have no idea how this new team looks with a healthy Kyle Lowry. The dude who was arguably playing like a top 10 player this season before he went down. DeRozan is not like previous seasons, he's taken a huge leap. You're jumping to conclusions based on assumptions to get clicks and I'm guessing it worked out nicely for you.

Dude, we all get it. You're from Boston, you know your team wont beat the Raptors in a series. You and Bill Simmons have wanted us to tank for years now. Enjoy that #1 seed cause you guys are the weakest #1 seed in NBA history. Wouldn't be surprised if you lose in the 1st round.

[Gold Dragon]

The championship or bust mentality is a fools errand. It makes sense if the core of your team is near retirement or the team is already near the bottom of the standings.

It does not make sense for perrenial playoff contenders with young rosters. Sports is unpredictable. Upsets happen. Just because you have stacked teams like the warriors is not a guarantee of anything. A Durant ankle sprain and Curry slump and any of the top teams can take on the warriors in the playoffs. The key is to consistently be a top team and capitalize when those oppotunities come.

Tanking is the way you become a perrenial bottom feeder, developing players who leave for other teams at the first opportunity they get.

[RaptorsLife]

Underrated part about being competitive. It really gives hope to young kids who want to basketball players.

There is so many canadians in the nba and coming up. Just because of Vince carter. But kids are gonna see this current raptors era and reflect just because your In canada doesn't mean you can't make it to the league

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I love how he said the last 3 years have ended in playoff disappointment

ECF last year isn't a disappointment unless you assumed you could beat the Cleveland Lebrons

It was a disappointment to me cuz the series wasn't close. I'd rather lose in 4 by 10 points per game then have the performance we had. By a fair bit actually. But that's just me, and probably not a lot of other people would agree.

how on earth is a 4-2 series not close?

the amount of points we win or lose by means NOTHING a W is a W and a L is a L

people looking for **** to be disappointed over..im assuming you thought we would beat the cavs? lmfao

Well I disagree with some of what you wrote that's why LMAOOOFAO

[Got Nuffin]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

You just don't get it. Raptors have sucked for decades and are finally relevant. We still have no idea how this new team looks with a healthy Kyle Lowry. The dude who was arguably playing like a top 10 player this season before he went down. DeRozan is not like previous seasons, he's taken a huge leap. You're jumping to conclusions based on assumptions to get clicks and I'm guessing it worked out nicely for you.

Dude, we all get it. You're from Boston, you know your team wont beat the Raptors in a series. You and Bill Simmons have wanted us to tank for years now. Enjoy that #1 seed cause you guys are the weakest #1 seed in NBA history. Wouldn't be surprised if you lose in the 1st round.

Well he, Bill Simmons and everyone knows that if his no1 seeded Celtics run into the Raptors (or Wizards for that matter) in the playoffs they are *****.

Talking about Lowry being in decline when Al Horford and Amir Johnson are key players on their team, and Thomas is about to be the first 5'8 scorer to command a max contract.

It's a shame by the time that BKN pick matures those guys will probably barely be in the league anymore.

[OAKLEY_2]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

It isn't really a step ahead of the conversation. Three significant pieces need to be locked up this offseason and you pay through the nose with possible buyer remorse or you low ball them and intentionally lose them. We know the latter is very unlikely. This roster is contributing top to bottom and the lesson for younger players is winning is contagious as it is a learned skill. After the Wizards crushed us we regrouped and they fell back but are competitive again. They did not blow it up. Paying KL is a Jack Morris proposition except you likely get three good years not one and a half. Two years of a new Lowry deal may be a 70 mil thank-you bonus.

[Ong_dynasty]

I never get this, especially considering our history.
Being respectable and actually getting home court advantage is a great feeling compared to what we have experienced before.
And it is not like Masai is giving up the future, this is why he still keeps draft picks and finds ways to get younger.

What I don't get about this is, we want to restart again for what? to get to this position again with "hopefully" a chance to have a younger core? what is the point.

[Double Helix]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

First, thanks for joining us here.

My issue stems largely from what I call the "Reset the Nintendo at the first sign of trouble" mentality that's gained momentum ever since the internet allowed fan bases to get together and remind each other how hard it is to win an NBA Championship without a transformative MVP talent. Did you lose a life while playing the game? Did you miss a powerup? Reset and start over.

We lived in happy ignorance before. We enjoyed watching good basketball being played before us. We didn't have kickstarters pushing for tank billboards. We didn't spend more time talking about the measurements of prospect than we did the Xs and Os of the sport we loved. "Maybe if we get hot and they're cold we can create an upset?" we thought. "Maybe even making it as far as we've ever gone as a franchise is a good first step."

It is. For a franchise that was best known for dunk contest participants and players wanting to leave it the first chance they could what the Toronto Raptors did last year was an accomplishment. I'm not sure if you're actually from Massachusetts or not. I'm not sure it matters. However, Massachusetts-area sports teams have won titles across each of the 4 major NA sports leagues fairly recently so I can absolutely understand how any fan from the region would more easily subscribe to the Championship or tank mentality.

Fans in many other cities, including Toronto, have been suffering for decades. Our last major championship of any kind is coming up on 25 years soon. Our hockey team has accomplished even less over that span and our basketball team hasn't even been around that long. We don't even have an NFL team. We pretend we do with the Buffalo Bills. Others merely adopted the NBA lottery. We were literally born into it.

We've seen the tank efforts that lead to far less than what we have today. We know how hard it is to have Team USA caliber players during their prime years, who want to live in cold Canada during the winter months to rep the Raptors. We've had our hearts broken by Mighty Mouse, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Chris Bosh before. That's one for each generation of Raptors fan and 4 for Day 1s.

To really understand this market you had to suffer through all of that. The Raptors basically immigrated to the NBA. We're International. We faced stigmas and hurdles from many Americans who thought less of us. We started out without a whole lot. And yet 2 decades later we've finally worked our way up into the NBA Upper Middle Class. Generations of fans prior to the We the North era suffered through so much. Think of all the men who have to look back at photos of themselves as teens wearing Andrea Bargnani jerseys. Can you imagine their shame today?

Our brand has never been stronger. We function like a big market club, targeting top executives and declaring a willingness to go into luxury tax to build a winner. Our team has never featured more talent and better chemistry. We've never been closer to the Conference leaders. We have the first starting-caliber PF we've had since Chris Bosh left in Serge Ibaka and, more importantly, he's the perfect release valve for both Lowry and Derozan. We're top 4 in net rating. We have not one but 2 wings designed to slow down Lebron James in Demarre Carroll and PJ Tucker. We can play big. We can play small. We were the only team last year to beat the Cavs in the playoffs beyond the Warriors and that 73-9 team only did it one more time than we did. With Lowry back and rested we will be a better team than we were then. We're not only an injury away from upsetting them, we are perhaps even a Cavs defensive slump away.

That would be the first Finals appearance in our franchise history against a team that many anointed the greatest accumulation of talent of all time. The Warriors are a true super team and to square off with them in a historic Finals matchup might be a nightmare to some but to a franchise like the Raptors it's closer to being the kind of rags to riches sports story that hasn't been written for the NBA in a long time. We don't get that story, or that excitement of the playoff basketball, or those memories by pressing reset right now.

There will be time to rebuild and tank. Later.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[DonMega]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

First, thanks for joining us here.

My issue stems largely from what I call the "Reset the Nintendo at the first sign of trouble" mentality that's gained momentum ever since the internet allowed fan bases to get together and remind each other how hard it is to win an NBA Championship without a transformative MVP talent. Did you lose a life while playing the game? Did you miss a powerup? Reset and start over.

We lived in happy ignorance before. "Maybe anybody can win?" We thought. "Maybe we can upset the champs?" "Maybe we have just enough as it is and if we play well enough we can make it to the end and even making it to the end is a sense of accomplishment."

It is. For a franchise that was best known for dunk contest participants and players wanting to leave it the first chance they could what the Toronto Raptors did last year was an accomplishment. I'm not sure if you're actually from Massachusetts or not. I'm not sure it matters. However, Massachusetts-area sports teams have won titles across each of the 4 major NA sports leagues fairly recently so I can absolutely understand how any fan from the region would more easily subscribe to the Championship or tank mentality.

Fans in many other cities, including Toronto, have been suffering for decades. Our last major championship of any kind is coming up on 25 years soon. Our hockey team has accomplished even less over that span and our basketball team hasn't even been around that long. We don't even have an NFL team. We pretend we do and that team is the Buffalo Bills. Others merely adopted the NBA lottery. We were literally born into it.

We've seen the tank efforts that lead to far less than what we have today. We know how hard it is to have Team USA caliber players during their prime years, who want to live in cold Canada during the winter months to rep the Raptors. We've had our hearts broken by Mighty Mouse, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Chris Bosh before. That's one for each generation of Raptors fan and 4 for Day 1s.

To really understand this market you had to suffer through all of that. The Raptors basically immigrated to the NBA. We're International. We faced stigmas and hurdles from many Americans who thought less of us. We started out without a whole lot. And yet 2 decades later we've finally worked our way up into the NBA Upper Middle Class. Generations of fans prior to the We the North era suffered through so much. Think of all the men who have to look back at photos of themselves as teens wearing Andrea Bargnani jerseys. Can you imagine their shame today?

Our brand has never been stronger. Our team has never featured more talent and better chemistry. We've never been closer to the Conference leaders. We have the first starting-caliber PF we've had since Chris Bosh left in Serge Ibaka and, more importantly, he's the perfect release valve for both Lowry and Derozan. We're top 4 in net rating. We have not one but 2 wings designed to slow down Lebron James in Demarre Carroll and PJ Tucker. We can play big. We can play small. We were the only team last year to beat the Cavs in the playoffs beyond the Warriors and they only did it one more time than we did. With Lowry back and rested we will be a better team than we were then. We're not only an injury away from upsetting them, we are perhaps even a Cavs defensive slump away.

That would be the first Finals appearance in our franchise history against a team that many anointed the greatest accumulation of talent of all time. The Warriors are a true super team and to square off with them in a historic Finals matchup might be a nightmare to some but to a franchise like the Raptors it's closer to being the kind of rags to riches sports story that hasn't been written for the NBA in a long time. We don't get that story, or that excitement of the playoff basketball, or those memories by pressing reset right now.

There will be time to rebuild and tank. Later.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

/thread

[slothrop8]

I still think it was a good article and certainly fun to see the author come here to discuss it. The piece doesn't really suggest tank either, rather if the playoff run fizzles - if LeBron flips the switch and vaporizes us again - then it's time to start working through Plan B. That doesn't even necessarily entail tank - it might mean signing and flipping Lowry, or Serge, it might mean flipping DD, but the evidence is beginning to mount that Masai might well be able to build a fun, competitive team even with some or all of those parts gone while turning them into premium picks and/or young prospects.

Running the Lowry/DD core back over and over until it's too old to convert into useful future pieces isn't the right strategy if it becomes clear it's never getting over the hump. Moving on from them doesn't necessarily mean bottoming out either though. Masai built star-deprived 50 win teams in Denver in a much tougher Western Conference without anyone as good as current Lowry. It's not beyond the pale given the young base of talent on hand that he could pull that off here too while cashing out some of the vet stars hoping to land the guy who can be a future #1 option on a championship team in the return. That to me is a better path forward than letting the veteran assets we have decline while going deep into the tax in the bargain.

Obviously, we first let this season play out. If this new defensive juggernaut we've modeled gets Lowry back and goes deep and looks like a serious contender, well that's great. Stay the course - open up that wallet to pay some tax dollars MLSE. If we need 7 to squeak by Giannis and only get by thanks to Kidd's bumbling - then get vaporized by LeBron - well it's time to start exploring other pathways forward.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Keep saying nice things about Ujiri and it will turn people around. Keep taliking about how gansta he is, how great of a pick Bruno was, and how forward looking he is. He looked at tanking once, and was steered off that course with the promise of making the playoffs, and then he rode that core right to the luxury tax, only this year really going in on it.

Had we made the trades earlier, and we had some pf depth when Pat got hurt, we're probably safely in 1st in the East.

I dont see how making a trade deadline dump in 2018 helps us load up in the 2017/18 drafts. When you get out of the lottery, its a real reach to expect to land franchise changing players.

Masai says a lot of things, usually it always sounds great but has little to no meat. I can gice you numerous examples of him stating, just win. Just win. Over and over as the path ahead. I can also point you to recent press conferences where he laid out the scenarios where he decides to take this team into the tax and make a push or not. It was prior to Lowrys injury even, but he said if the miss the playoffs or get bounced in round 1, it may not make sense to take this team in the tax. However with Lowry down, i assume he wants to see this team full strength first, whether thats this season, or next. His actions are where you judge him and hes notoriously patient and cautious.

Perhaps at Sloan he gives the audience what he feels they want to hear?

If they do blow it up, it will be because Lowry wants to bolt, or perhaps his attitude is considered more of a problem than they let on. Or because ownership tells them to get out of the tax. All other things considered I have to believe Masai is more than content with team that wins around 50 games and collects some playoff wins, because thats what I've seen. He does have a trend to keep the end of bench staffed with developing guys, but you see him reighn that in a bit when it gets beyond the bottom 5, especialy when depthbis exposed and winning suffered. Just this winter we gave up a young player under decent contract, a 1st rd pick and 2 seconds for rentals with bird rights. What he does with those players will be a good indicator. I do believe Masai will stay nimble, and may perhaps look for ways to move Carroll, Joseph, and maybe Jonas, but if we do decide to blow it up and move Kyle or DD at the deadline next year, it will not be part of a masterplan he's working now, but because by then he feels his plan needs to change.

[JackedFinancier]

I'm trying to take you seriously but you mention the Raptors young talent and forget to include Delon Wright and Jacob Poeltl who are *actually in the rotation right now unlike Pascal and Bruno.* cmon man.

This comment touches on something I read in this topic: the timing of this article is bad because right now the Cavs are sucking and right now the Raptors are excelling, so the focus should be on the now. On the focus: Masai Ujiri is future-focused. At Sloan, Ujiri said, "Everything we do, we really try to look at the future." That is apparent with his roster construct having so many young players and their excellent use of the D-League. Just because Pascal and Bruno aren't playing now doesn't mean they're not more important than Wright and Poeltl. (As for Wright and Poeltl they're fine! And all down the line, they have solid talent. No reason to list them all. You know.) As for timing: a few people said this article would've made more sense after a round one playoff loss, or during the offseason. Right, it would make more sense but that's when everyone could be writing about this. It's always better when you're ahead of the conversation — and when it comes to decisions, like Ujiri historically has been.

You just don't get it. Raptors have sucked for decades and are finally relevant. We still have no idea how this new team looks with a healthy Kyle Lowry. The dude who was arguably playing like a top 10 player this season before he went down. DeRozan is not like previous seasons, he's taken a huge leap. You're jumping to conclusions based on assumptions to get clicks and I'm guessing it worked out nicely for you.

Dude, we all get it. You're from Boston, you know your team wont beat the Raptors in a series. You and Bill Simmons have wanted us to tank for years now. Enjoy that #1 seed cause you guys are the weakest #1 seed in NBA history. Wouldn't be surprised if you lose in the 1st round.

Why do you have a to be a dick to the guy? He took the time to come and address comments/questions about his article. It's his opinion which he is certainly allowed to voice. I haven't really read the article but disagree with the overall subject that we should blow it up - no need to do that at this point - although we may need to find an alternative to Lowry for next season given he may walk.

[Raptorfan2012]

The only blowing up Masai is going to do is to find a way to get rid of Carroll's contract (and probably CoJo and maybe JV). Watch Open Gym and you will see Masai has been covetting Tucker and Ibaka for a while now, and he has finally acquired them. You can bet he will do everything he can to keep them both (along with Lowry). He talked about the future with Tucker. Getting Tucker and Ibaka was to add to the core of Lowry and Demar - it wasn't to dismantle the core.

[CoachJReturns]

How is this conversation still going? lol. We just traded 3 draft picks and Ross for two veteran players. You don't blow up a team after moving picks and a young player.
I was actually in favor of blowing it up if the team got bounced in the first round, but that was before the Ibaka and Tucker trades. It's too late for that move. Now we wait for Lowry to get back and see what we have. The earliest you even consider the possibility of blowing it up is next year's trade deadline after Masai and Weltman have had time to evaluate(I know we all hate that word) what we currently have.
Blowing it up is what you do when you're a 30 win team and going nowhere. Or all your top players are in their last couple years and want to win, so you move them for picks like Boston did. We're not close to either situation.