therealbig3 wrote:chefo wrote:First of all, hand-checking was a magical tool when used by really strong guards backed by elite rim-protectors. Just like now, back then there were teams that sucked at defense. That doesn't mean hand-checking did not work. We're talking the elite Ds here like the Pistons, NY, Miami, the Bulls. So, some hand-checking goes on today. In the mid 80s to the mid 90s, these guys were in your grill the moment you crossed half-court and you had to turn your back on them or they would mug you. And the stars were not beneath dishing out some punishment of their own; how many players can say that today?
Go watch the Knicks and the Rockets finals; Kenny Smith had trouble getting the ball past half-court on more than a few occasions. Or watch any of the slugfests between NY and Miami, or the Bulls and NY or Detroit, or Indiana and NY. Earlier it was Philly, the Bucks, Boston and Detroit. One of the tactics used if a star was perceived as soft was to nail them repeatedly on multiple screens and on layups by the likes of Mahorn, Oak or the Chief. Bill Cartwright was notorious for having really sharp elbows and not taking cr@p from anybody. So were Stockton and Malone. Late 80s, early 90s Cleveland with their huge and athletic front line was considered a finesse team, but they were more psychical than any team today, maybe sans the Grizzlies.
So yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I've seen plenty of 80s and 90s ball, and I don't see this huge difference in physicality, other than guys occasionally just playing dirty, which just isn't basketball at that point...nor do I think hand checking had the impact that you're saying it did, especially when mitigated by the illegal defense rules.
You obviously feel differently, I don't think we're going to convince each other here.
chefo wrote:As much as I appreciate Kwahi and Jimmy, they were not going to stay with him either.
Nobody's going to shut down MJ 1 on 1, that's not what I'm saying. But this part is also pure conjecture, and what we do know is that Kawhi and Jimmy are MUCH better defenders than the vast majority of guys that did defend MJ. In fact, I wouldn't even put Payton on their level defensively, because they're essentially just bigger and stronger versions of him on defense. It's easy to say that they wouldn't hang with him, when we never saw Jordan actually go up against defenders of that caliber on a consistent basis.
chefo wrote:As for experience, how many titles did it take for Riley, Jackson or Daley to be smart? Or George Carl? Whose Seattle teams, BTW, were zoning every chance they got, illegal defense rules be darned? Or watch the Knicks from the early 90s--straight up zone when they played the Bulls. Yes, they would get called a couple of times a game, but they would zone all game long.
It's funny that you mention those teams using zones, despite the rules...those two teams forced a prime MJ into two of his worst series (93 vs the Knicks and 96 vs the Sonics). MJ himself also complained about zone defenses, saying that they're too hard to score against. So you put him in a league that's perfected zone defense league-wide, has fully adjusted to the no-handchecking rule, and has a lot more defensive talent on the perimeter to throw at him, and I doubt that it's not at least a little harder for MJ to dominate to the same degree.
And it's human nature, the longer you study something or practice something, the better you get. Look at Pop. He's 10x the coach he is now than he was when he first started with the Spurs. He re-invented his team's offense completely from an offense centered around a traditional low post big, to more of a team approach, that emphasizes movement, passing, spacing, and shooting, and it was completely seamless, and the offenses he's produced since then have completely destroyed the offenses he built around Duncan. He never even had to rebuild his team once Duncan declined, they never won less than 50 games, even as Duncan transitioned to a role player, they won a title with him as a role player and with arguably not a single top 10 player on their roster in 2014, and have actually had some of their best seasons ever with Duncan being an old role player, or not even on the team anymore. Offense around the league has taken a huge step forward since MJ's prime, not just because of rule changes, but because of improved offensive concepts and execution, and in response, defense has gotten better too to counter that. As a result, you just have higher quality basketball on both ends of the court now.
