2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[ocelot17]

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Funny how the narrative changes, when you consider that curry won the MVP with two all stars in Thompson and green.

Lebron won two MVPs with his super teammates wade and bosh.

Durant won the MVP with Westbrook.

[therealbig3]

I get that Harden and Westbrook and Leonard have the narratives and the numbers this year, but I still think Curry is the 2nd best player in the league, behind LeBron.

[Impuniti]

I get that Harden and Westbrook and Leonard have the narratives and the numbers this year, but I still think Curry is the 2nd best player in the league, behind LeBron.

He is. However, all 3 of those players deserve the MVP over Steph and at least 2 over Lebron this year for their consistent RS performances.

[Doctor MJ]

I get that Harden and Westbrook and Leonard have the narratives and the numbers this year, but I still think Curry is the 2nd best player in the league, behind LeBron.

He is. However, all 3 of those players deserve the MVP over Steph and at least 2 over Lebron this year for their consistent RS performances.

I basically agree with all of this and so find it hard to actually rank him in the MVP race.


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[CnG]

General consensus that All-Star appearance are merely a popularity contest and aren't indicative of level of play (especially in a given season) but we're using them exclusively to determine the level of players? Cool stat but completely irrelevant.

[xfactor99]

^ You just know in 20 years people are gonna use Kobe's 18 all-star appearances as an argument as to why he's a top 10 all-time player. Hopefully there are people around to rebut that case.

And don't get me started on the "Joe Johnson, 7-time All-Star, should be a HOFer!" argument.

[bondom34]

Also 2 NBA all rookies and a MIP. None of which is relevant to them being able to keep the team at a positive rating while Harden takes a rest.

[michaelm]

I am not sure for what the MVP award is actually awarded, and the criteria do not seem to have ever been well disclosed.

Whatever it is for, It has been awarded to many players of undoubted excellence, and Westbrook and Harden are both appropriate players to join that company imo, although I don't particularly care for aspects of how both players choose to exercise the obviously outstanding talent each possesses.

For me it has to be Harden over Westbrook this season given neither team was highly rated pre-season and Harden's team is better performed, both overall and in match-ups against Westbrook and the Thunder.

[laika]

I get that Harden and Westbrook and Leonard have the narratives and the numbers this year, but I still think Curry is the 2nd best player in the league, behind LeBron.

He is. However, all 3 of those players deserve the MVP over Steph and at least 2 over Lebron this year for their consistent RS performances.

I basically agree with all of this and so find it hard to actually rank him in the MVP race.

Why do they deserve it more?

By the traditional criteria for MVP-best player on the best team- Curry is the clear MVP. By the next most common criteria- most important player to their team- Curry has a very strong case. Curry leads the league in On/Off, which is a good indicator of which player is actually the most important to their team.

So maybe you think winning has been massively overrated in all previous MVP races. You at least need to make that case for why this is a correct point of view. I think a lot of people are using some really questionable criteria in their MVP rankings this year. Their thinking seems to start with- "First, ignore that winning was extremely important for previous MVPs. Second, automatically exclude Curry. Now of the players left, ..."

[laika]

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Funny how the narrative changes, when you consider that curry won the MVP with two all stars in Thompson and green.

Yet somehow the Warriors have been much worse without Curry than the Rockets without Harden this year.

Thompson and Green are all-stars because of Curry. Durant is a legitimately great player. But clearly Curry is capable of making a team great without Durant. Also, those two Warrior teams were a lot better than Houston this year. If Harden was leading Houston to 70 wins he would be the unanimous MVP winner. As it is, Harden has about a 90% chance to win so you can stop the complaining now.

[bmurph128]

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Funny how the narrative changes, when you consider that curry won the MVP with two all stars in Thompson and green.

Lebron won two MVPs with his super teammates wade and bosh.

Durant won the MVP with Westbrook.

But you can't deny the numbers. Harden's team does almost just as well as him when he's off the floor.

Yes there are qualifiers for that - but if nothing else it means that the Rockets bench is LIGHT YEARS better than any bench LBJ, Curry, etc. have ever had. And having arguably the best bench in the NBA is very valuable for the regular season - and this is a regular season award.

[bmurph128]

Warriors beat Rockets.

Curry destroys Harden.

Harden is out of the MVP race.

#RealGMMVPlogic

[laika]

Warriors beat Rockets.

Curry destroys Harden.

Harden is out of the MVP race.

#RealGMMVPlogic

More like "last night never happened".

There can't be more than handful of people on Realgm that think Curry is the MVP.

[bmurph128]

Warriors beat Rockets.

Curry destroys Harden.

Harden is out of the MVP race.

#RealGMMVPlogic

More like "last night never happened".

There can't be more than handful of people on Realgm that think Curry is the MVP.

Based on what the MVP race has become, I would agree with that.

Just focusing on the word "valuable" though..

Westbrook, Curry, LeBron are all more valuable than Harden to their teams.

[Goodfellaz]

Updated MVP odds with 2 weeks to go. No surprise here. Harden clearly in the lead. Barring a collapse and westy winning most if not all the remaining games.




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[ocelot17]

Warriors beat Rockets.

Curry destroys Harden.

Harden is out of the MVP race.

#RealGMMVPlogic

More like "last night never happened".

There can't be more than handful of people on Realgm that think Curry is the MVP.

Based on what the MVP race has become, I would agree with that.

Just focusing on the word "valuable" though..

Westbrook, Curry, LeBron are all more valuable than Harden to their teams.

Warriors would still be a playoff team without curry. They have three all stars and have been one of the best defensive teams over the last three years, with curry being their worst defender.

Cavs still have Love, Irving and the deepest team, plus they're playing in the east.

[Impuniti]

More like "last night never happened".

There can't be more than handful of people on Realgm that think Curry is the MVP.

Based on what the MVP race has become, I would agree with that.

Just focusing on the word "valuable" though..

Westbrook, Curry, LeBron are all more valuable than Harden to their teams.

Warriors would still be a playoff team without curry. They have three all stars and have been one of the best defensive teams over the last three years, with curry being their worst defender.

Cavs still have Love, Irving and the deepest team, plus they're playing in the east.

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

[RightToCensor]

I've seen plenty of overreactions in this thread after single games, this will blow over soon.

I just want to repeat that Harden leads the league in APG, leads the league in points created, and is second in PPG. We don't have the 3rd best record in the league without him, we're not in the playoffs without him. The player keeping the Rockets in playoff position for the past five seasons is James Harden.

[bmurph128]

Based on what the MVP race has become, I would agree with that.

Just focusing on the word "valuable" though..

Westbrook, Curry, LeBron are all more valuable than Harden to their teams.

Warriors would still be a playoff team without curry. They have three all stars and have been one of the best defensive teams over the last three years, with curry being their worst defender.

Cavs still have Love, Irving and the deepest team, plus they're playing in the east.

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

Most PGs tend to be bad defenders - but Curry is a better defender than Harden and has been mostly league average over the years. Aside from the finals last year, you didn't hear much about Curry's defense.

Without Curry and KD I would really question if the Warriors are still a playoff team. It would be close.

I think Westbrook is clearly more valuable to his team than Harden to his, so won't even discuss that.

Given the Cavs injuries, roster turnover, coupled with LeBron's insane on/off splits, it should be clear to anyone that he's been more valuable to the Cavs than Harden to the Rockets this year. Throwing out that the Cavs still have a good team without LeBron is ignoring the injuries that have plagued the Cavs all year - without those injuries I wouldn't have Curry (or KD) or LBJ in the discussion. But given that the Cavs will have played more games without starters than with their starting 5, I'm inclined to credit LeBron for keeping the Cavs at the top of the conference for the entire year.

[bmurph128]

I've seen plenty of overreactions in this thread after single games, this will blow over soon.

I just want to repeat that Harden leads the league in APG, leads the league in points created, and is second in PPG. We don't have the 3rd best record in the league without him, we're not in the playoffs without him. The player keeping the Rockets in playoff position for the past five seasons is James Harden.

I don't disagree.

Just like it was an overreaction when the Rockets beat the Cavs a few weeks ago.