2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[ocelot17]

Based on what the MVP race has become, I would agree with that.

Just focusing on the word "valuable" though..

Westbrook, Curry, LeBron are all more valuable than Harden to their teams.

Warriors would still be a playoff team without curry. They have three all stars and have been one of the best defensive teams over the last three years, with curry being their worst defender.

Cavs still have Love, Irving and the deepest team, plus they're playing in the east.

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

I was referring to the last couple of years when they had bogut and Barnes. Curry was arguably their worst defensive player.

Bogut- rim protector, defensive anchor.

Green- DPOY candidate

Barnes- Athletic 3 and D player

Thompson- Supposedly the best two way shooting guard.

Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays.

[K_chile22]

Updated MVP odds with 2 weeks to go. No surprise here. Harden clearly in the lead. Barring a collapse and westy winning most if not all the remaining games.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Well he is hurting, so maybe Harden misses some games or plays like crap because his wrist and ends up losing

[Pablo Novi]

As little as I respect the opinions of the media here, they do a better job than the players.

Players are great at scouting, but there's just a lot of abstract analysis required in assessing actual player value, and players typically reject this idea entirely because they have no scientific or intellectual background.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

PABLO'S 3-4 MVP-AWARDS COMPLAINTS:
Of all the MVP awards, there are THREE that REALLY PISS ME OFF (and one more I don't agree with, but can "live with").
1) 1962 Wilt was WAY THE BLEEP better (and more valuable) than Russell - this is THE greatest individual-award travesty in all of NBL-NBA-ABA history, imo. Heck, I had the Big "O" ahead of Russell that year (with his amazing triple-double).

2) 1961 Wilt WAS clearly better (and more valuable to his team) this year; (just as in 1962, in 1961 Wilt beat Russell in the ALL-NBA voting - THEY got it right, the MVP voters got it wrong!)

3) 1973 Dave Cowens beat out KAJ for MVP. I find that vote unacceptable too. Sure, Cowens played out of his head (and WAY bigger than his height and size); but KAJ was just a good deal better (again, as "proven" by KAJ beating Cowens out for ALL-NBA 1st Team).

4) 1958 I don't agree with the Russell over Pettit 1958 MVP vote either - but don't feel nearly as strongly about it as the above 3. In the other three, earlier cases, I closely followed both players that year; this was not yet the case in 1958.

One can notice a pattern in this: a Boston Celtic beat out a non-Celtic in each year. I attribute this to two factors:
a) The C's had more influence on the voters then did any other team;
b) In Wilt's case, the PLAYERS just couldn't accept how dominant he was; and went with a "more-acceptable" Russell.

ftr, I consider Russell easily the superior player to Wilt in most years.

Statistical production and actual impact are not the same thing at all.

Certainly everybody has the right to their own opinion.

I'd just note that, in the 10 years they both played in the League,
According to ALL-NBA Voting (which I've always understood to rank actual impact rather than just statistical production):

Wilt was ranked #1 Center 7 times (60, 61, 62, 64, 66, 67, 68) [All 7 times, Russell was #2]
Russ was ranked #1 Center 2 times (63, 65) [Both times, Wilt was #2]

In the 10th year, 1969, neither finished in the Top 2 Center voting; but based on trends from the previous years (AND it was well known that Russell had a weak year (for him) in 1969 - I'd assume Wilt got more All-NBA votes than did Russ that year too).

So, not-counting 1969:
Wilt = 7; Russell = 2

counting 1969:
Wilt = 8; Russell = 2

Either way, in the eyes of the voters (whose job it was to closely observe how the players played), Wilt DOMINATED Russell.

PABLO'S CALL FOR STATISTICAL HELP:
If anyone knows where I can get a copy of the ACTUAL VOTING (rather than just the final results' winners) for the ALL-NBA (and ALL-ABA and ALL-NBL) Yearly Selections ... it'd be much appreciated.

[bmurph128]

Warriors would still be a playoff team without curry. They have three all stars and have been one of the best defensive teams over the last three years, with curry being their worst defender.

Cavs still have Love, Irving and the deepest team, plus they're playing in the east.

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

I was referring to the last couple of years when they had bogut and Barnes. Curry was arguably their worst defensive player.

Bogut- rim protector, defensive anchor.

Green- DPOY candidate

Barnes- Athletic 3 and D player

Thompson- Supposedly the best two way shooting guard.

Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays.

Pretty sure the bolded only happened against the Cavs on Christmas day. I could be wrong though since I don't catch many Warriors games.

[Impuniti]

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

I was referring to the last couple of years when they had bogut and Barnes. Curry was arguably their worst defensive player.

Bogut- rim protector, defensive anchor.

Green- DPOY candidate

Barnes- Athletic 3 and D player

Thompson- Supposedly the best two way shooting guard.

Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays.

Pretty sure the bolded only happened against the Cavs on Christmas day. I could be wrong though since I don't catch many Warriors games.

It's happened 3 times this season where Steph goes off for the last 4-5 seconds of a quarter on a defensive play. I do not think he is happy about it though. Otherwise, it's rotating the two as you would expect for a backup PG

[Z Cabarkapa]

Warriors would still be a playoff team without curry. They have three all stars and have been one of the best defensive teams over the last three years, with curry being their worst defender.

Cavs still have Love, Irving and the deepest team, plus they're playing in the east.

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

I was referring to the last couple of years when they had bogut and Barnes. Curry was arguably their worst defensive player.

Bogut- rim protector, defensive anchor.

Green- DPOY candidate

Barnes- Athletic 3 and D player

Thompson- Supposedly the best two way shooting guard.

Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays.

"Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays." What are you talking about? This has only happened a few times in 3 years Livingston has played for GSW, most notably the Christmas game against the Cavs this year when they brought in Livingston for length on the out of bounds play and Kyrie hit the game winner over Klay.

For the past 3 seasons Curry has:
1) a lower FG% against than Klay
2) more defensive win shares/48 than Klay
3) better defensive RPM than Klay
4) more defensive rebounds than Klay
5) more ball deflections than Klay
6) more steals than Klay (top 5 in NBA over that span)

Yet the popular narrative of every talking head on TV says KLAY is the best 2 way player and Curry is a weak defender. I guess everyone with their "EYE TESTS" must have their eyes closed all of the times Klay loses sight of the ball, or turns his head on his man and gets beat on back cuts or leaves a good shooter to close out on a non-shooter or doesn't go for a loose ball??? Defense is not just how you do playing the 1v1 eye test - what you are doing the other 80% of the time while off the ball is just as important. Curry has a much superior defensive IQ than Klay, which explains why Curry is a part of more GSW top defensive lineups than Klay.

Over the past few years I have seen Curry score on the top defenders in the league. He's broken DPOY Kawhi's ankles twice - once hitting a 3 and the other a layup with Kawhi stumbling on the ground. The best defensive centers in the league - Deandre Jordan, Tristan Thompson, Gasol, Adams, Howard, Whiteside, (and Capela last night) etc.- have all been flat out embarrassed while guarding Curry 1v1 on the perimeter.

But afterwards nobody calls any of those guys above "bad defenders" when this happens, becuase it's a MISMATCH for any of them to be outside the 3pt line guarding a player with Curry's (or Kyries) handles and shooting skills 1v1. Yet, when the tables are turned and Curry is mismatched guarding a great offensive player, everyone calls Curry is a poor defender. He's scored 1v1 on Lebron dozens of times and all we hear is "that's good defense by Lebron, just better offense". But when Lebron returns the favor on Curry the announcers say "They've got do do something - Curry can't guard him." This is a double standard, not just for Curry but for a lot of PGs.

99% of the media and posters on this board toss it out as a fact that Curry is a bad defender while almost every metric out there shows him to be an above average defender. This season Curry's defensive RPM is #19 PG (#8 for starting PGs) while Kyrie is #76 PG (#26 starting PG), yet Curry's defense gets lumped in with Kyrie all the time. In 2016 he finished #6 Defensive RPM for PGs, and in 2015 was #2 DRPM. I am probably tilting at windmills here, but it erks me when people consistently trash his defense as if its just a simple matter of fact when the facts show otherwise. And yes, Curry is a better 2 way player than Klay.

[heatwillbeback]

People are going to look back and wonder how three top 20 players of all time were (1) on the same team and (2) didn't win a title together. It's crazy how good that OKC team looks now.

[Doctor MJ]

PABLO'S 3-4 MVP-AWARDS COMPLAINTS:
Of all the MVP awards, there are THREE that REALLY PISS ME OFF (and one more I don't agree with, but can "live with").
1) 1962 Wilt was WAY THE BLEEP better (and more valuable) than Russell - this is THE greatest individual-award travesty in all of NBL-NBA-ABA history, imo. Heck, I had the Big "O" ahead of Russell that year (with his amazing triple-double).

2) 1961 Wilt WAS clearly better (and more valuable to his team) this year; (just as in 1962, in 1961 Wilt beat Russell in the ALL-NBA voting - THEY got it right, the MVP voters got it wrong!)

3) 1973 Dave Cowens beat out KAJ for MVP. I find that vote unacceptable too. Sure, Cowens played out of his head (and WAY bigger than his height and size); but KAJ was just a good deal better (again, as "proven" by KAJ beating Cowens out for ALL-NBA 1st Team).

4) 1958 I don't agree with the Russell over Pettit 1958 MVP vote either - but don't feel nearly as strongly about it as the above 3. In the other three, earlier cases, I closely followed both players that year; this was not yet the case in 1958.

One can notice a pattern in this: a Boston Celtic beat out a non-Celtic in each year. I attribute this to two factors:
a) The C's had more influence on the voters then did any other team;
b) In Wilt's case, the PLAYERS just couldn't accept how dominant he was; and went with a "more-acceptable" Russell.

ftr, I consider Russell easily the superior player to Wilt in most years.

Statistical production and actual impact are not the same thing at all.

Certainly everybody has the right to their own opinion.

I'd just note that, in the 10 years they both played in the League,
According to ALL-NBA Voting (which I've always understood to rank actual impact rather than just statistical production):

Wilt was ranked #1 Center 7 times (60, 61, 62, 64, 66, 67, 68) [All 7 times, Russell was #2]
Russ was ranked #1 Center 2 times (63, 65) [Both times, Wilt was #2]

In the 10th year, 1969, neither finished in the Top 2 Center voting; but based on trends from the previous years (AND it was well known that Russell had a weak year (for him) in 1969 - I'd assume Wilt got more All-NBA votes than did Russ that year too).

So, not-counting 1969:
Wilt = 7; Russell = 2

counting 1969:
Wilt = 8; Russell = 2

Either way, in the eyes of the voters (whose job it was to closely observe how the players played), Wilt DOMINATED Russell.

PABLO'S CALL FOR STATISTICAL HELP:
If anyone knows where I can get a copy of the ACTUAL VOTING (rather than just the final results' winners) for the ALL-NBA (and ALL-ABA and ALL-NBL) Yearly Selections ... it'd be much appreciated.

Realistically I'd say there were two main differences that led to splitting of the MVP with All-NBA voting:

1) In some years it wasn't the same voting body.
2) The urge to split accolades so that both Russell & Wilt got an award so as to satisfy the two factions of people who disagreed vehemently.

As for opinions, the thing I'll note is that after '66-67 something happened that basically everyone needs to explain to themselves in order to have a serious opinion:

A coach came in and decided to have Wilt - the player most associated with scoring in all of basketball - shoot less per minutes played than any other starter and instead focus on passing, and all of a sudden, that team's offense became vastly superior.

I cannot emphasize enough how big of a risk that was for the coach. Had it failed he'd have been seen as a joke for all of history. Instead, it was probably the single most important coaching decision in all of history.

[smileyforall220]

Honestly, Zaza is the worst defender in the starting 5. He gets exposed by most Cs, while Curry is a pretty good defender other than 2-3 PGs like Kyrie in particular that seem to expose him defensively.

I was referring to the last couple of years when they had bogut and Barnes. Curry was arguably their worst defensive player.

Bogut- rim protector, defensive anchor.

Green- DPOY candidate

Barnes- Athletic 3 and D player

Thompson- Supposedly the best two way shooting guard.

Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays.

"Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays." What are you talking about? This has only happened a few times in 3 years Livingston has played for GSW, most notably the Christmas game against the Cavs this year when they brought in Livingston for length on the out of bounds play and Kyrie hit the game winner over Klay.

For the past 3 seasons Curry has:
1) a lower FG% against than Klay
2) more defensive win shares/48 than Klay
3) better defensive RPM than Klay
4) more defensive rebounds than Klay
5) more ball deflections than Klay
6) more steals than Klay (top 5 in NBA over that span)

Yet the popular narrative of every talking head on TV says KLAY is the best 2 way player and Curry is a weak defender. I guess everyone with their "EYE TESTS" must have their eyes closed all of the times Klay loses sight of the ball, or turns his head on his man and gets beat on back cuts or leaves a good shooter to close out on a non-shooter or doesn't go for a loose ball??? Defense is not just how you do playing the 1v1 eye test - what you are doing the other 80% of the time while off the ball is just as important. Curry has a much superior defensive IQ than Klay, which explains why Curry is a part of more GSW top defensive lineups than Klay.

Over the past few years I have seen Curry score on the top defenders in the league. He's broken DPOY Kawhi's ankles twice - once hitting a 3 and the other a layup with Kawhi stumbling on the ground. The best defensive centers in the league - Deandre Jordan, Tristan Thompson, Gasol, Adams, Howard, Whiteside, (and Capela last night) etc.- have all been flat out embarrassed while guarding Curry 1v1 on the perimeter.

But afterwards nobody calls any of those guys above "bad defenders" when this happens, becuase it's a MISMATCH for any of them to be outside the 3pt line guarding a player with Curry's (or Kyries) handles and shooting skills 1v1. Yet, when the tables are turned and Curry is mismatched guarding a great offensive player, everyone calls Curry is a poor defender. He's scored 1v1 on Lebron dozens of times and all we hear is "that's good defense by Lebron, just better offense". But when Lebron returns the favor on Curry the announcers say "They've got do do something - Curry can't guard him." This is a double standard, not just for Curry but for a lot of PGs.

99% of the media and posters on this board toss it out as a fact that Curry is a bad defender while almost every metric out there shows him to be an above average defender. This season Curry's defensive RPM is #19 PG (#8 for starting PGs) while Kyrie is #76 PG (#26 starting PG), yet Curry's defense gets lumped in with Kyrie all the time. In 2016 he finished #6 Defensive RPM for PGs, and in 2015 was #2 DRPM. I am probably tilting at windmills here, but it erks me when people consistently trash his defense as if its just a simple matter of fact when the facts show otherwise. And yes, Curry is a better 2 way player than Klay.

A high steal rate does not make one a good defender, Curry is routinely overmatched by opposing point guards. Defense is his weak point, offense is his strength. You can pull out all the defensive stats you want but you don't see curry shutting down other point guards like a good defender would. Case in point, Jimmy butler from last year, routinely shut down derozan, harden, Klay, etc..

[Impuniti]

I was referring to the last couple of years when they had bogut and Barnes. Curry was arguably their worst defensive player.

Bogut- rim protector, defensive anchor.

Green- DPOY candidate

Barnes- Athletic 3 and D player

Thompson- Supposedly the best two way shooting guard.

Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays.

"Livingston- Subs in for curry to make key defensive plays." What are you talking about? This has only happened a few times in 3 years Livingston has played for GSW, most notably the Christmas game against the Cavs this year when they brought in Livingston for length on the out of bounds play and Kyrie hit the game winner over Klay.

For the past 3 seasons Curry has:
1) a lower FG% against than Klay
2) more defensive win shares/48 than Klay
3) better defensive RPM than Klay
4) more defensive rebounds than Klay
5) more ball deflections than Klay
6) more steals than Klay (top 5 in NBA over that span)

Yet the popular narrative of every talking head on TV says KLAY is the best 2 way player and Curry is a weak defender. I guess everyone with their "EYE TESTS" must have their eyes closed all of the times Klay loses sight of the ball, or turns his head on his man and gets beat on back cuts or leaves a good shooter to close out on a non-shooter or doesn't go for a loose ball??? Defense is not just how you do playing the 1v1 eye test - what you are doing the other 80% of the time while off the ball is just as important. Curry has a much superior defensive IQ than Klay, which explains why Curry is a part of more GSW top defensive lineups than Klay.

Over the past few years I have seen Curry score on the top defenders in the league. He's broken DPOY Kawhi's ankles twice - once hitting a 3 and the other a layup with Kawhi stumbling on the ground. The best defensive centers in the league - Deandre Jordan, Tristan Thompson, Gasol, Adams, Howard, Whiteside, (and Capela last night) etc.- have all been flat out embarrassed while guarding Curry 1v1 on the perimeter.

But afterwards nobody calls any of those guys above "bad defenders" when this happens, becuase it's a MISMATCH for any of them to be outside the 3pt line guarding a player with Curry's (or Kyries) handles and shooting skills 1v1. Yet, when the tables are turned and Curry is mismatched guarding a great offensive player, everyone calls Curry is a poor defender. He's scored 1v1 on Lebron dozens of times and all we hear is "that's good defense by Lebron, just better offense". But when Lebron returns the favor on Curry the announcers say "They've got do do something - Curry can't guard him." This is a double standard, not just for Curry but for a lot of PGs.

99% of the media and posters on this board toss it out as a fact that Curry is a bad defender while almost every metric out there shows him to be an above average defender. This season Curry's defensive RPM is #19 PG (#8 for starting PGs) while Kyrie is #76 PG (#26 starting PG), yet Curry's defense gets lumped in with Kyrie all the time. In 2016 he finished #6 Defensive RPM for PGs, and in 2015 was #2 DRPM. I am probably tilting at windmills here, but it erks me when people consistently trash his defense as if its just a simple matter of fact when the facts show otherwise. And yes, Curry is a better 2 way player than Klay.

A high steal rate does not make one a good defender, Curry is routinely overmatched by opposing point guards. Defense is his weak point, offense is his strength. You can pull out all the defensive stats you want but you don't see curry shutting down other point guards like a good defender would. Case in point, Jimmy butler from last year, routinely shut down derozan, harden, Klay, etc..

Which PG routinely shuts down other PGs?

[Torchmode]

People are going to look back and wonder how three top 20 players of all time were (1) on the same team and (2) didn't win a title together. It's crazy how good that OKC team looks now.

All 3 of them couldnt play together. It was never going to work with all of them in their prime.

[Pablo Novi]

ftr, I consider Russell easily the superior player to Wilt in most years.

Statistical production and actual impact are not the same thing at all.

Certainly everybody has the right to their own opinion.

I'd just note that, in the 10 years they both played in the League,
According to ALL-NBA Voting (which I've always understood to rank actual impact rather than just statistical production):

Wilt was ranked #1 Center 7 times (60, 61, 62, 64, 66, 67, 68) [All 7 times, Russell was #2]
Russ was ranked #1 Center 2 times (63, 65) [Both times, Wilt was #2]

In the 10th year, 1969, neither finished in the Top 2 Center voting; but based on trends from the previous years (AND it was well known that Russell had a weak year (for him) in 1969 - I'd assume Wilt got more All-NBA votes than did Russ that year too).

So, not-counting 1969:
Wilt = 7; Russell = 2

counting 1969:
Wilt = 8; Russell = 2

Either way, in the eyes of the voters (whose job it was to closely observe how the players played), Wilt DOMINATED Russell.

PABLO'S CALL FOR STATISTICAL HELP:
If anyone knows where I can get a copy of the ACTUAL VOTING (rather than just the final results' winners) for the ALL-NBA (and ALL-ABA and ALL-NBL) Yearly Selections ... it'd be much appreciated.

Realistically I'd say there were two main differences that led to splitting of the MVP with All-NBA voting:

1) In some years it wasn't the same voting body.
2) The urge to split accolades so that both Russell & Wilt got an award so as to satisfy the two factions of people who disagreed vehemently.

As for opinions, the thing I'll note is that after '66-67 something happened that basically everyone needs to explain to themselves in order to have a serious opinion:

A coach came in and decided to have Wilt - the player most associated with scoring in all of basketball - shoot less per minutes played than any other starter and instead focus on passing, and all of a sudden, that team's offense became vastly superior.

I cannot emphasize enough how big of a risk that was for the coach. Had it failed he'd have been seen as a joke for all of history. Instead, it was probably the single most important coaching decision in all of history.

Imo, and I KNOW my opinion is worth more than the opinion of anybody else (LOL)!
Where was I, oh year, imo,
this post of your is WORTHY (I often find posts I disagree with worthy nonetheless).

1) IMO, ALL-LEAGUE SELECTIONS are THE best "stat" of all in terms of best-representing what actually happened that season, who the best players really were (i.e. who really had the most IMPACT). Having closely watched "everything available" that covered the NBA (ABA) starting in 1960, I can honestly say that I have virtually no major gripes about the All-NBA 1st-Team & 2nd-Team selections; something I can not say about the MVP voting.

2) WIDELY VARYING RESULTS VIS-A-VIS WILT VS RUSSELL: You may well be right about the explanation for the significant differences, during the years both played, between the All-NBA results (Wilt DOMINATING Russ 7-2) vs the MVP voting (Russ barely beating Wilt: 4-3).

3) WHY D-I-D WILT SWITCH FROM POWER-HOUSE SCORER, TO MORE ALL-AROUND PLAYER PLUS DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST?
Almost nobody alive and active-as-a-fan of the NBA knows this; BUT THEY SHOULD:

WILT risked his LIFE, repeatedly, in attempts to push forward desegregation. In this video, they show what he did just in Kansas
http://www.espn.com/espnw/video/12382756/wilt-fight-segregation ; but during the following years he continued; and in the process, "integrated" not a city, but the entire state and then the entire region.

Each and every time Wilt sat down in a segregated restaurant or theater (or elsewhere); there can be no doubt that he was risking his very life. I GREW UP in the 1950's; the ferociousness of the anti-Black ("Negro") brutality and intimidation shook me for the rest of my life (and I'm "white"). I saw gang-bang beatings of several COWARDS against one or two blacks - MANY TIMES (and that was only on occasional visits to the Deep South). There was the INFAMOUS: "THREE BATHROOM SYSTEM" - "Men", "Women" and, the abomination called "Coloreds" (which had no electicity, no running water, was never cleaned, was situated as far as physically possible AWAY from the other two bathrooms because the STINK and the SWARM OF FLIES was more than most people could handle!

PEOPLE HAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT WILT WAS A STAT-PADDER; and the explanation for this was that that was all he really cared about. But, back then, KNOWING what he was doing OFF-THE-COURT; we didn't have that opinion for even one second.

IN FACT, WILT DID WHAT HIS COACHES ASKED OF HIM
When scoring in the high 30s points per game was not enough for his weak-a** team to win enough; his coach told him the TEAM needed more scoring from Wilt - and Wilt obliged (in spades! in the non-racist sense of the word). When, later on, Wilt's TEAM had terrific scorers at more than one position, his Coach asked him to concentrate on other aspects of the game rather than totally dominating thru scoring. And Wilt again obliged (in spades!).

Just as in "real-life", Wilt was the BLEEPING opposite of what his reputation portrays him as being nowadays. OFF the court, he was a giant of a man IN CHARACTER; literally single-handedly breaking the grip of racial-discrimination. ON the court, he was again a giant of a man IN CHARACTER: KNOWN for breaking up fights and for holding back when (continually) provoked (like Shaq much later on; there was one set of rules for EVERYBODY ELSE; and a different set of rules for Wilt - defenses could "maul" him - and nothing was called!

[Pablo Novi]

Certainly everybody has the right to their own opinion.

I'd just note that, in the 10 years they both played in the League,
According to ALL-NBA Voting (which I've always understood to rank actual impact rather than just statistical production):

Wilt was ranked #1 Center 7 times (60, 61, 62, 64, 66, 67, 68) [All 7 times, Russell was #2]
Russ was ranked #1 Center 2 times (63, 65) [Both times, Wilt was #2]

In the 10th year, 1969, neither finished in the Top 2 Center voting; but based on trends from the previous years (AND it was well known that Russell had a weak year (for him) in 1969 - I'd assume Wilt got more All-NBA votes than did Russ that year too).

So, not-counting 1969:
Wilt = 7; Russell = 2

counting 1969:
Wilt = 8; Russell = 2

Either way, in the eyes of the voters (whose job it was to closely observe how the players played), Wilt DOMINATED Russell.

PABLO'S CALL FOR STATISTICAL HELP:
If anyone knows where I can get a copy of the ACTUAL VOTING (rather than just the final results' winners) for the ALL-NBA (and ALL-ABA and ALL-NBL) Yearly Selections ... it'd be much appreciated.

Realistically I'd say there were two main differences that led to splitting of the MVP with All-NBA voting:

1) In some years it wasn't the same voting body.
2) The urge to split accolades so that both Russell & Wilt got an award so as to satisfy the two factions of people who disagreed vehemently.

As for opinions, the thing I'll note is that after '66-67 something happened that basically everyone needs to explain to themselves in order to have a serious opinion:

A coach came in and decided to have Wilt - the player most associated with scoring in all of basketball - shoot less per minutes played than any other starter and instead focus on passing, and all of a sudden, that team's offense became vastly superior.

I cannot emphasize enough how big of a risk that was for the coach. Had it failed he'd have been seen as a joke for all of history. Instead, it was probably the single most important coaching decision in all of history.

Imo, and I KNOW my opinion is worth more than the opinion of anybody else (LOL)!
Where was I, oh year, imo,
this post of your is WORTHY (I often find posts I disagree with worthy nonetheless).

1) IMO, ALL-LEAGUE SELECTIONS are THE best "stat" of all in terms of best-representing what actually happened that season, who the best players really were (i.e. who really had the most IMPACT). Having closely watched "everything available" that covered the NBA (ABA) starting in 1960, I can honestly say that I have virtually no major gripes about the All-NBA 1st-Team & 2nd-Team selections; something I can not say about the MVP voting.

2) WIDELY VARYING RESULTS VIS-A-VIS WILT VS RUSSELL: You may well be right about the explanation for the significant differences, during the years both played, between the All-NBA results (Wilt DOMINATING Russ 7-2) vs the MVP voting (Russ barely beating Wilt: 4-3).

3) WHY D-I-D WILT SWITCH FROM POWER-HOUSE SCORER, TO MORE ALL-AROUND PLAYER PLUS DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST?
Almost nobody alive and active-as-a-fan of the NBA knows this; BUT THEY SHOULD:

WILT risked his LIFE, repeatedly, in attempts to push forward desegregation. In this video, they show what he did just in Kansas
http://www.espn.com/espnw/video/12382756/wilt-fight-segregation ; but during the following years he continued; and in the process, "integrated" not a city, but the entire state and then the entire region.

Each and every time Wilt sat down in a segregated restaurant or theater (or elsewhere); there can be no doubt that he was risking his very life. I GREW UP in the 1950's; the ferociousness of the anti-Black ("Negro") brutality and intimidation shook me for the rest of my life (and I'm "white"). I saw gang-bang beatings of several COWARDS against one or two blacks - MANY TIMES (and that was only on occasional visits to the Deep South). There was the INFAMOUS: "THREE BATHROOM SYSTEM" - "Men", "Women" and, the abomination called "Coloreds" (which had no electicity, no running water, was never cleaned, was situated as far as physically possible AWAY from the other two bathrooms because the STINK and the SWARM OF FLIES was more than most people could handle!

PEOPLE HAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT WILT WAS A STAT-PADDER; and the explanation for this was that that was all he really cared about. But, back then, KNOWING what he was doing OFF-THE-COURT; we didn't have that opinion for even one second.

IN FACT, WILT DID WHAT HIS COACHES ASKED OF HIM
When scoring in the high 30s points per game was not enough for his weak-a** team to win enough; his coach told him the TEAM needed more scoring from Wilt - and Wilt obliged (in spades! in the non-racist sense of the word). When, later on, Wilt's TEAM had terrific scorers at more than one position, his Coach asked him to concentrate on other aspects of the game rather than totally dominating thru scoring. And Wilt again obliged (in spades!).

Just as in "real-life", Wilt was the BLEEPING opposite of what his reputation portrays him as being nowadays. OFF the court, he was a giant of a man IN CHARACTER; literally single-handedly breaking the grip of racial-discrimination. ON the court, he was again a giant of a man IN CHARACTER: KNOWN for breaking up fights and for holding back when (continually) provoked (like Shaq much later on; there was one set of rules for EVERYBODY ELSE; and a different set of rules for Wilt - defenses could "maul" him - and nothing was called!

I should add that Wilt was NEVER my favorite player. West-Baylor were exactly because, for ME, their bi-racial harmony and artistry changed me life - they MADE me believe that racism could be beaten; and, because of THEM, I dedicated the rest of my life to being an heavy-duty peace-justice activist * (it's been over 50 years now; and, hopefully, still going strong).

Nevertheless, on those Lakers' teams, WILT was the MVP - his sacrificing his points-per-game for the good of the team is the KEY factor in those teams becoming great; better than they ever were when Baylor-West were in their primes.

I must further add, the ONLY reason I became a "rabid" fan of the NBA in 1960; was because I attended a number of Harlem Globetrotter games the previous season; and Wilt BLEW ME BLEEPING AWAY. He played a MEAN PG! I "followed" him into the NBA; if it weren't for Wilt, who knows when I would have first started paying much attention to the NBA.

* Seemingly because of my DNA, from as early as I can remember, I've ALWAYS counted "everything". In 1965, I attended my first peace-justice demonstration: Pro-Palestinian, Anti-Zionist). I learned more that one day than any other day of my life; by far. I learned enough about the US Gov slaughter of innocents in Vietnam to join the Anti-War Movement. For the next ten years, in addition to working full-time paying-jobs; I spent 40+ hours a week, 50+ weeks a year (20,000+ hours all together) of volunteer work in that totally righteous cause.

Thanx, Elgin & Jerry !

[and1GS]

People are going to look back and wonder how three top 20 players of all time were (1) on the same team and (2) didn't win a title together. It's crazy how good that OKC team looks now.

All 3 of them couldnt play together. It was never going to work with all of them in their prime.

Ya there was just no precedent for three explosive offensive talents sharing the ball in their prime...

[Mylie10]

People are going to look back and wonder how three top 20 players of all time were (1) on the same team and (2) didn't win a title together. It's crazy how good that OKC team looks now.

All 3 of them couldnt play together. It was never going to work with all of them in their prime.

Ya there was just no precedent for three explosive offensive talents sharing the ball in their prime...

I know....where do people get this stuff?

[Pablo Novi]

All 3 of them couldnt play together. It was never going to work with all of them in their prime.

Ya there was just no precedent for three explosive offensive talents sharing the ball in their prime...

I know....where do people get this stuff?

Just for the subject matter of, and the quality of those pictures - you get a half-vote (which is saying a lot! lol) from me in the GOAT POST of this thread debate. lol

[Pablo Novi]

Ya there was just no precedent for three explosive offensive talents sharing the ball in their prime...

I know....where do people get this stuff?

Just for the subject matter of, and the quality of those pictures - you get a half-vote (which is saying a lot! lol) from me in the GOAT POST of this thread debate. lol

I love this foto of Bosh BECAUSE, imo, his humility just comes shining thru.
I've seen him in a number of interviews and boy is he ever cerebral - yet not showy about it. What a combination!

[michaelm]

I've seen plenty of overreactions in this thread after single games, this will blow over soon.

I just want to repeat that Harden leads the league in APG, leads the league in points created, and is second in PPG. We don't have the 3rd best record in the league without him, we're not in the playoffs without him. The player keeping the Rockets in playoff position for the past five seasons is James Harden.

I would personally even argue that their pattern of play which is based on Harden is more team oriented that that of the Thunder, and hence holds together better when he is not on the court.
A pattern of play based on admittedly heroic individual efforts from Westbrook is completely bereft when he sits.

[bondom34]

I've seen plenty of overreactions in this thread after single games, this will blow over soon.

I just want to repeat that Harden leads the league in APG, leads the league in points created, and is second in PPG. We don't have the 3rd best record in the league without him, we're not in the playoffs without him. The player keeping the Rockets in playoff position for the past five seasons is James Harden.

I would personally even argue that their pattern of play which is based on Harden is more team oriented that that of the Thunder, and hence holds together better when he is not on the court.
A pattern of play based on admittedly heroic individual efforts from Westbrook is completely bereft when he sits.

I'd argue there's 1 other ball handler on the entire roster and his backup has been bad at every level of pro basketball.

[Pablo Novi]

Did anybody see how Westbrook and Harden treated each other after their head-to-head match-up? They hugged like the long-time true friends they are.

Besides each of them is giving us, the fans, MAXIMUM entertainment (and beautiful b-ball to boot).

Why the BLEEP do their FANS need to hate either of them?