Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Hello Brooklyn]

Seriously?

I would say pretty much every team LeBron has faced in the Finals has arguably been tougher than any team Jordan faced. IDK if I would take any of Jordan's Finals opponents over the 11 Mavs...they were led by a superstar at the top of his game, with perfectly fitting pieces around him, on both sides of the ball. And then you have the 07 Spurs, 12 Thunder, 13 Spurs, 14 Spurs, 15 Warriors, and 16 Warriors...that's not even debatable to me, they're all better than anyone Jordan faced in the Finals.

And CP3 is better than Stockton.

Yeah ok.

You are telling me the '11 Mavs (a team with one all-star caliber player), the young and unexperienced Thunder, and a '14 Spurs team whose best players were way past their prime, were better than the Stockton=Malone Jazz or Barkley's Suns?

Sorry, not buying it.

The only team Lebron played which was truly a great team was the Warriors.

Also how were the Bad Boy Pistons "done" when he beat them. They were just coming off of a Championship the year before.

The only other great team Lebron faced was the '07 Spurs, and he got swept.

The 14 Spurs were arguably better than the 07 Spurs. They were a team in every sense of the word, and they lit up the Heat in the Finals. They were a fantastic team.

Ditto with the Mavs, they were a perfect fit for each other, with a ton of shooters and defenders around one elite player. They would have been a tough out for anyone.

And the results speak for themselves, the "young and unexperienced" Thunder beat the Spurs in convincing fashion that year to get to the Finals...they only get called young and inexperienced now because they ended up losing to the Heat. They were an excellent team though, built around three young superstars.

Yeah, if you want me to compare them to the Stockton/Malone Jazz or the Barkley Suns...I'm taking every single one of those teams over them. The only Finals opponent MJ faced that I'd even consider on the same level as those teams would be the 96 Sonics...and I'm still taking the 07 Spurs, 13 Spurs, 14 Spurs, 15 Warriors, and 16 Warriors over them easily.

As for the Pistons...I didn't say they were done...but:

-Isiah got hurt and missed a ton of time that year, including games in the playoffs. He wasn't close to 100% that year. After 91, he didn't play for much longer either.

-You can also see it in their SRS...the 88-90 Pistons were a 5-6 SRS team...the 91 Pistons dropped to a 3 SRS. They were a weaker team than before all season long.

-Pretty much everyone from the year before other than Isiah, Dumars, and Rodman were all on the wrong side of 30 and got a year older (Laimbeer, Edwards, Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson)...and the only one still in his prime was Dumars.

They were an ok team, but they were much weaker than they had been the 3 years prior and certainly weren't true title contenders that year, and the Bulls took full advantage of that.

The '14 Spurs best player in the Finals averaged 12.8 points. It wasn't a great team or even close to the '07 Spurs.

They put a beating on Lebron because Bosh/Wade played terribly and Lebron didn't step up when it matered.

The Mavs were not a great team and had no business winning that Finals if not for Lebron's super meltdown.

The Thunder beat a not so great Spurs team and then showed they were in over their heads. That Thunder team never even made the Finals again despite having so many chances.

You can't just say the Pistons weren't a great team a year after they won a Championship. Maybe they weren't as good as the year before. But they were still reigning champs.

These Lebron Finals teams you're hyping up were no better than the worst teams Jordan played honestly. Outside of the Warriors, Lebron never faced an all-time great teams.

The '11 Mavs '12 Thunder, '13/14 Spurs were all good but not great teams.

[sp6r=underrated]

The 14 Spurs were arguably better than the 07 Spurs. They were a team in every sense of the word, and they lit up the Heat in the Finals. They were a fantastic team.

Ditto with the Mavs, they were a perfect fit for each other, with a ton of shooters and defenders around one elite player. They would have been a tough out for anyone.

And the results speak for themselves, the "young and unexperienced" Thunder beat the Spurs in convincing fashion that year to get to the Finals...they only get called young and inexperienced now because they ended up losing to the Heat. They were an excellent team though, built around three young superstars.

Yeah, if you want me to compare them to the Stockton/Malone Jazz or the Barkley Suns...I'm taking every single one of those teams over them. The only Finals opponent MJ faced that I'd even consider on the same level as those teams would be the 96 Sonics...and I'm still taking the 07 Spurs, 13 Spurs, 14 Spurs, 15 Warriors, and 16 Warriors over them easily.

As for the Pistons...I didn't say they were done...but:

-Isiah got hurt and missed a ton of time that year, including games in the playoffs. He wasn't close to 100% that year. After 91, he didn't play for much longer either.

-You can also see it in their SRS...the 88-90 Pistons were a 5-6 SRS team...the 91 Pistons dropped to a 3 SRS. They were a weaker team than before all season long.

-Pretty much everyone from the year before other than Isiah, Dumars, and Rodman were all on the wrong side of 30 and got a year older (Laimbeer, Edwards, Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson)...and the only one still in his prime was Dumars.

They were an ok team, but they were much weaker than they had been the 3 years prior and certainly weren't true title contenders that year, and the Bulls took full advantage of that.

I agree with your larger point but your overselling here. I get the impression from your posts that you think this era is a little harder. That a 7 SRS is a little better than 7 SRS now. If I am wrong, correct me. Nate Silver's ELO data shows generally rates recent teams higher so that worldview is accounted for. I'll ignore the Warriors since even the haters acknowledge they are ATG.

The nice thing about the ELO data is that it is broken out by Peak, Mean, End and Cumulative so you can get a real grasp of team quality. I made a list for each of them

Code: Select all

Rank   Year   OPP   PEAK
1   '97-98   UTA   1766
2   '96-97   UTA   1764
3   '13-14   SAS   1764
4   '12-13   SAS   1751
5    11-12   OKC   1743
6   '06-07   SAS   1736
7   '10-11   DAL   1736
8   '95-96   SEA   1731
9    92-93   PHO   1715
10   91-92   POR   1708
11   90-91   LAL   1705

Code: Select all

Rank   Year   OPP   MEAN
1   '13-14   SAS   1696
2   '97-98   UTA   1695
3   '96-97   UTA   1693
4   '12-13   SAS   1688
5   '95-96   SEA   1687
6   '06-07   SAS   1687
7    11-12   OKC   1686
8    91-92   POR   1667
9    92-93   PHO   1667
10   90-91   LAL   1660
11   10-11   DAL   1644

Code: Select all

Rank   Year   OPP   END
1   '13-14   SAS   1764
2   '96-97   UTA   1748
3   '97-98   UTA   1737
4   '10-11   DAL   1736
5   '06-07   SAS   1725
6   '12-13   SAS   1712
7    11-12   OKC   1711
8   '95-96   SEA   1704
9    91-92   POR   1682
10   90-91   LAL   1662
11   92-93   PHO   1649

Code: Select all

Rank   Year   OPP   CUMULATIVE
1   '13-14   SAS   1742
2   '96-97   UTA   1735
3   '97-98   UTA   1733
4   '12-13   SAS   1717
5   '06-07   SAS   1716
6    11-12   OKC   1713
7   '95-96   SEA   1707
8   '10-11   DAL   1705
9    91-92   POR   1686
10   92-93   PHO   1677
11   90-91   LAL   1676

SRS doesn't show Dallas on the level of those Uta clubs. You have to really believe there is an era difference to hold not just that they are equal but a full step up. I'm skeptical of era arguments but I'll accept it for sake of discussion.

As said before the ELO scaling favors present teams, It isn't era neutral. It's still hard to see Dallas for example as some monster. Their peak play ranks 7th. Utah ranks highest.

Their average level of play is at the bottom while Utah is 2nd and 3rd.

Dallas end of season score is still below the two Utah clubs.

The most important score, cumulative shows them as 8th while Utah ranks 2nd and 3rd.

As said before I agree with you that Lebron's final opponents were stronger but you're overstating the degree

[sp6r=underrated]

The '14 Spurs best player in the Finals averaged 12.8 points. It wasn't a great team or even close to the '07 Spurs.

Basketball is a team game. You don't measure how good a team is by their leading scorer's PPG. You measure them by their MOV. The RS data for the two clubs is about equal while the 14 Spurs played world's better throughout the PS. I like the 07 Spurs, though I rate their 05 club as the strongest of the 99-07 spurs, but it is basically impossible for me to see how you can say they aren't close

Edit: I think you're referring to Kawhi here. He averaged 17.8 ppg on .753 ts%. That is absurdly effective scoring

They put a beating on Lebron because Bosh/Wade played terribly and Lebron didn't step up when it matered.

San Antonio put a beating on them because they were playing abnormally well. I'll try to find an article but a writer showed they were shooting better on contested shots than they shot all season on uncontested shots throughout the season in Miami. It is basically impossible to win in those circumstances.

WCSF MOV: 13.4
WCF MOV: 10.5
FINALS MOV: 14

This looks like the quintessential case of a really strong team which SA was playing on all cylindars. Only a handful of clubs could have won in those circumstances.

The Mavs were not a great team

I agree they were very good but not great.

and had no business winning that Finals if not for Lebron's super meltdown.

As I said to rb3, you're overselling here. That was a very close series. Lebron had a rare poor series and if you want to knock him for it be my guest but it is far from a super meltdown and not nearly as bad as MJ quitting for a year and a half.

The Thunder beat a not so great Spurs team and then showed they were in over their heads. That Thunder team never even made the Finals again despite having so many chances.

After that year, they were a Big 3 not a Big 4.

2013: Westbrook gets injured in 1st round
2014: Lose to SA team that looks just below the level of the GOAT clubs by most advanced statistical metrics
2015: Durant injured for 3/4 of season. Westbrook and Ibaka miss a 1/5 of a season
2016: They defeated a 67 win club and lost in 7 games to a 73 win club.

They had 2 shots were they were healthy in the post-season. In one of them they had to face a 67 and 73 win club back to back to make the finals. It is absurd to call them not making the finals again a failure or say they had a lot of chances.

You can't just say the Pistons weren't a great team a year after they won a Championship. Maybe they weren't as good as the year before. But they were still reigning champs.

All data shows they were clearly on the decline. They were eliminated in the first round the next year with a 3 SRS which is nothing special and missed the post-season the next year.

These Lebron Finals teams you're hyping up were no better than the worst teams Jordan played honestly.

This is basically absurd. If you want to knock LBJ for his competition focus on the conference playoffs there is a great case for several seasons James faced weak opponents.

Outside of the Warriors, Lebron never faced an all-time great teams.

I agree the GSW were the only GOAT caliber teams Lebron faced. He played two series against them. Jordan only played one series against a GOAT caliber club in the 86 Celtics.

The '11 Mavs '12 Thunder, '13/14 Spurs were all good but not great teams.

It is hard to classify the Mavs as good if you're going to proclaim a team like Phoenix as great.

[elBJ]

Jordan is pretty overrated when you think about it.

He would've lost against Duncan's Spurs or Shaq and Kobe lakers.

Not saying he isn't great but I just think it's funny that people think he's the goat, like it's an actual fact with no point in debating, which leads me believe that it was his marketability and popularity that led him to GOAT status

you saw the guy play? it's not about stats or achievements, the guy is still an alien to anyone else ever touching a basketball. I searched for a play but couldn't find it, when someone grabbed his shooting arm and pulled him out of the air, while turning/being pulled down he switches the ball to his non shooting hand and makes the shot - and1. He did stuff like that all the time.

Mj being Goat is actual fact, but it's not about facts at all.

[RingsDontLie]

What I learned...some people think so...others don't think so. This is another question that will never have a definitive answer. Guy won 6 rings, at the end of the day, that's all that counts.

[chitownsports4ever]

This thread is pretty funny because I think people show their age a bit when spouting this craziness about the recent teams .

That 91- 92 Cavs team with Price,Doughtery,Nance was a beast and would give any of the recent title teams mentioned in this thread a run. 57 win team

That 92-93 knicks team with Oak,Doc,Mason,Ewing,Starks coached by Van Gundy 60 win team

That 95-96 with a young Shaq,Penny,Scott Anderson,Grant and now some of you think Emblid is a revelation.... a young Shaq against ANY of these current title teams and I would have to go with young Shaq and Penny . 60 win team

The 96-97 Bullets team with Webber,Howard,Strickland 44 win team

The 96-97 Hawks team with Mookie,Dikembe,Steve Smith,and Laettner 56 win team

The 96-97 Heat team with Zo,Tim Hardaway, Mashburn, Marjerle 61 win team

These teams were all good budding teams to great teams that get dismissed because of the unfortunate circumstance of running into Jordans Bulls . You look at all the maneuvering that goes on to add role players to current teams and most of these old teams just did it naturally and are littered with young and old role players who had lengthy nba careers contributing to a bunch of teams

[parapooper]

I have learnt not to trust your data after our previous discussions.

Just want to verify how you came up with this list?

And here the same with toughest PS matchup instead of finals matchup:
Shaq 2000 1.795
LBJ 2012 1.735
LBJ 2016 1.715
LBJ 2013 1.605
Magic 1988 1.525
Hakeem 1994 1.265
Magic 1982 1.245
...

So you state that that list is toughest PS matchup instead of finals match up right? The way you have worded it makes it seem its just relevant to there own conference (outside the finals).

Is this RS + PS (50/50) oBPM? Or just PS oBPM? This makes a hugh difference. I hope your not just using the PS oBPM, because that would just be sooo stupid. For example, Boston (who would have been the highest oBPM outside the finals against the '12 Heat) vs Heat in '12 was a 4-3 series. Whereas lets say, '97 Bulls played the Heat in the ECF and beat the 4-1 and you can see how much 1 bad or close series can really sway there BPM.

So i'm going to assume, you would have done the right thing and used the RS + PS (50/50) oBPM (even tho even that is not perfect).

I have '97 Heat BPM as 1.42 whereas the '12 Boston was 1.29. That is with the '97 Heat's BPM being influenced by the 4-1 beating they got from the Bulls (which os ~ 1/7th of the make up of there BPM in your RS+PS formula)

Hmm, those were only 2 teams i checked knowing what i remember from those seasons and playoffs. Should i verify other data you have in this lists?

Not sure what you mean by oPBM, since I don't use oBPM at all .. typo?

But you do seem to get what I am doing calculating team strength (tBPM) - your 1.29 and 1.42 for 2012 Boston and 1997 Heat is what I have in my excel sheet as well.

The numbers you list above with Shaq/LeBron on top are matchup difficulties, meaning for each series I take the team strength of the opponent (such as the 1.29 for the 2012 Celtics you correctly calculated) and substract from that value the supporting cast strength (sBPM) of the GOATlist player.

The sBPM I calculated exactly like the tBPM (minute-weighted average BPM 50/50 RS/PS) except I replace the minutes of the GOATlist player with 0-BPM-level minutes - basically statistically simulating how good that team would be with a replacement-level player instead of the GOAT player.

If you want to double-check a few years that strike you as wrong feel free to calculate them and I can double-check in my sheet (PS: or use numbers below)

Stuff like the series against the Bulls lowering the 97 Heat BPM (a bit) doesn't really bother me that much - if anything you could say overweighting how they actually did play in the series against the GOATlist player is a positive feature of the method (could slightly underrate GOAT defenders like Duncan, Garnett I suppose)


PS: Maybe the misunderstanding is here: the list (with Shaq/LeBron on top) are the ranked toughest matchups that these GOATlist players have won on their way to a ring (since that's what my calculation were about originally)
So there were tougher matchups that were won in earlier rounds: as I repeatedly mentioned MJs early round matchups in '88, '89 are the most impressive (2.19, 2.41, 1.73), then there is LeBron's 2007 Pistons series (1.81). There aren't a lot of these though

PPS: did a rough browse for more impressive PS wins (by matchup toughness) in non-winning years:
KAJ 1st rd 1977 - 2.34
Bird 3rd rd 87 - 1.78
Hakeem 2nd rd 97 - 1.71
Hakeem 3rd rd 86 - 1.55
Shaq/Kobe/Garnett - all with a tough 2nd round in 04 - 1.4-5ish
Duncan 2nd rd 08 - 1.48
That's it in that range I think - but might have missed one or two

[mysticOscar]

I have learnt not to trust your data after our previous discussions.

Just want to verify how you came up with this list?

And here the same with toughest PS matchup instead of finals matchup:
Shaq 2000 1.795
LBJ 2012 1.735
LBJ 2016 1.715
LBJ 2013 1.605
Magic 1988 1.525
Hakeem 1994 1.265
Magic 1982 1.245
...

So you state that that list is toughest PS matchup instead of finals match up right? The way you have worded it makes it seem its just relevant to there own conference (outside the finals).

Is this RS + PS (50/50) oBPM? Or just PS oBPM? This makes a hugh difference. I hope your not just using the PS oBPM, because that would just be sooo stupid. For example, Boston (who would have been the highest oBPM outside the finals against the '12 Heat) vs Heat in '12 was a 4-3 series. Whereas lets say, '97 Bulls played the Heat in the ECF and beat the 4-1 and you can see how much 1 bad or close series can really sway there BPM.

So i'm going to assume, you would have done the right thing and used the RS + PS (50/50) oBPM (even tho even that is not perfect).

I have '97 Heat BPM as 1.42 whereas the '12 Boston was 1.29. That is with the '97 Heat's BPM being influenced by the 4-1 beating they got from the Bulls (which os ~ 1/7th of the make up of there BPM in your RS+PS formula)

Hmm, those were only 2 teams i checked knowing what i remember from those seasons and playoffs. Should i verify other data you have in this lists?

Not sure what you mean by oPBM, since I don't use oBPM at all .. typo?

But you do seem to get what I am doing calculating team strength (tBPM) - your 1.29 and 1.42 for 2012 Boston and 1997 Heat is what I have in my excel sheet as well.

The numbers you list above with Shaq/LeBron on top are matchup difficulties, meaning for each series I take the team strength of the opponent (such as the 1.29 for the 2012 Celtics you correctly calculated) and substract from that value the supporting cast strength (sBPM) of the GOATlist player.

The sBPM I calculated exactly like the tBPM (minute-weighted average BPM 50/50 RS/PS) except I replace the minutes of the GOATlist player with 0-BPM-level minutes - basically statistically simulating how good that team would be with a replacement-level player instead of the GOAT player.

If you want to double-check a few years that strike you as wrong feel free to calculate them and I can double-check in my sheet (PS: or use numbers below)

Stuff like the series against the Bulls lowering the 97 Heat BPM (a bit) doesn't really bother me that much - if anything you could say overweighting how they actually did play in the series against the GOATlist player is a positive feature of the method (could slightly underrate GOAT defenders like Duncan, Garnett I suppose)


PS: Maybe the misunderstanding is here: the list (with Shaq/LeBron on top) are the ranked toughest matchups that these GOATlist players have won on their way to a ring (since that's what my calculation were about originally)
So there were tougher matchups that were won in earlier rounds: as I repeatedly mentioned MJs early round matchups in '88, '89 are the most impressive (2.19, 2.41, 1.73), then there is LeBron's 2007 Pistons series (1.81). There aren't a lot of these though

PPS: did a rough browse for more impressive PS wins (by matchup toughness) in non-winning years:
KAJ 1st rd 1977 - 2.34
Bird 3rd rd 87 - 1.78
Hakeem 2nd rd 97 - 1.71
Hakeem 3rd rd 86 - 1.55
Shaq/Kobe/Garnett - all with a tough 2nd round in 04 - 1.4-5ish
Duncan 2nd rd 08 - 1.48
That's it in that range I think - but might have missed one or two

If what your doing is just comparing a support BPM to there opponent, then creating a list from that i'm sorry i can't take your analysis seriously. I thought you were just doing a list of hight tBPM opponents (the oBPM was meant to be Opponent BPM not to be mistaken for OBPM).

We have had this discussion before, but players that dominate in usg (scoring / TO) as well as dominating assists (and even rebounds) generally have a high BPM but they supress other team mates BPM.

So what you are doing is punishing GOATs playstyle where they can produce high BPM and allow other team mates to have a high BPM also.

I don't want to go back in that discussion since we have already gone through this...so lets just end it here.

[og15]

The Thunder beat a not so great Spurs team and then showed they were in over their heads. That Thunder team never even made the Finals again despite having so many chances.

How many "real" chances did the Thunder actually end up having?

12-13 Westbrook injured in first round, chance gone.

13-14 lost to Spurs, Ibaka injured and missed first two games where they got killed, chance diminished. He was always very useful vs SA and they probably win one of the first two and possibly go to 7 games if he was healthy. Thunder like the Clippers were an extremely top heavy team where if one of those main top players is out, it becomes an issue in the post-season.

14-15 Durant injured for season, didn't make playoffs, chance gone

15-16 great chance after their lead on GS but lost, chance was there, couldn't take advantage.

So the next 4 seasons, they ended up only having two more chances due to the injuries to one of their two main players, and arguably just one good chance which was last season due to Ibaka also having an injury that kept him out. That's a pretty bad health outcome in the post-season for 4 seasons of play.

[ClubLakers KB8]

Not really meant for this thread, but it somewhat correlates.

Jordan's mythical status is simply ungodly. They're promoting a dunk contest special and show Jordan (for good reason, his showings were epic back then), but compared to what we've seen? Please. Nothing like Carter, Gordon, Lavine, etc.

Jordan will always get the benefit of the doubt due to the GOAT status. It's Ruthian.

[Baseline Runner]

Rapid league expansion with minimal foreign player pool. Very watered down league.

Oh really? There may have not been vast numbers of foreign players but the ones that were here were of very good players:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vlade Divac
Drazen Petrovic
Detlef Shrempf
Toni Kukoc
Rony Seikaly
Arvydas Sabonis
Kiki Vandeweghe
Rik Smits
Dikembe Mutombo
Dominique Wilkins
Patrick Ewing

Jordan's era was weak in wings but strong in big men (both centers and power forwards) and point guards. Not only did Jordan play against many of the greatest centers of all time (Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, D Rob, Mourning, Brad Daugherty, Parish, Moses Malone, etc) but the PF position was crazy good as well (Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Rodman, Kevin McHale, Larry Nance, Chris Webber, LJ, etc). Point guards including Stockton, Isiah Thomas, KJ, Gary Payton, Mark Price, Penny Hardaway, Tim Hardaway.

Also people forget about a lot of good teams that existed during Jordan's era. The Cavs were good for many years and for a few years were on the same level as the Bulls, Jordan barely got past them, but they succumbed to injury problems. The Jazz and Supersonics, both built around an elite PG/PF duo and were good for many years. The Spurs were very strong with David Robinson. For a few years with Barkley the Suns were a dynamic and incredibly talented offensive team. There was Hakeem's Rockets of course. In his first 5-6 years he had to deal with the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and the Pistons who was the greatest defensive team of all time. The Knicks and Pacers were also great defensive teams year after year. You had Shaq teams like in Orlando and later the Lakers. Even teams like Atlanta had some good years with Dominique Wilkins, Mookie Blaylock, Kevin Willis and an older Moses Malone.

In my opinion the 80s was a weak era but there were a few strong teams at the top in the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons. The 90s and 200s represent the pinnacle of basketball in the NBA. The present era of the last few years is a bit of a drop off with defense being relegated in favor of offense and jacking up as many threes as quickly as possible.

[AussieBuck]

Rapid league expansion with minimal foreign player pool. Very watered down league.

Oh really? There may have not been vast numbers of foreign players but the ones that were here were of very good players:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vlade Divac
Drazen Petrovic
Detlef Shrempf
Toni Kukoc
Rony Seikaly
Arvydas Sabonis
Kiki Vandeweghe
Rik Smits
Dikembe Mutombo
Dominique Wilkins
Patrick Ewing

Yes, it's a statement of fact.

[Baseline Runner]

Rapid league expansion with minimal foreign player pool. Very watered down league.

Oh really? There may have not been vast numbers of foreign players but the ones that were here were of very good players:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vlade Divac
Drazen Petrovic
Detlef Shrempf
Toni Kukoc
Rony Seikaly
Arvydas Sabonis
Kiki Vandeweghe
Rik Smits
Dikembe Mutombo
Dominique Wilkins
Patrick Ewing

Yes, it's a statement of fact.

There are not as many foreign bums in the league back then but I would take those foreign players over the current crops of foreign players in the league any day of the week.

[AussieBuck]

Oh really? There may have not been vast numbers of foreign players but the ones that were here were of very good players:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vlade Divac
Drazen Petrovic
Detlef Shrempf
Toni Kukoc
Rony Seikaly
Arvydas Sabonis
Kiki Vandeweghe
Rik Smits
Dikembe Mutombo
Dominique Wilkins
Patrick Ewing

Yes, it's a statement of fact.

There are not as many foreign bums in the league back then but I would take those foreign players over the current crops of foreign players in the league any day of the week.

Of course you would, you have a hilarious bias towards the era you grew up in.

[ClubLakers KB8]

Yes, it's a statement of fact.

There are not as many foreign bums in the league back then but I would take those foreign players over the current crops of foreign players in the league any day of the week.

Of course you would, you have a hilarious bias towards the era you grew up in.

To be fair, there are some legends there.

But can we just stop the whole "my generation vs your generation" type thing? Shaq would have DESTROYED people in the day. Wilt would DESTROY people now. Curry would have dominated in the early years. Nate Thurmond would be an all-time bruiser big in any era. I could go on and on.

Let it go people. Jordan killed his era. He'd be just as good now. His impact may be less/more now due to the 3 being a bigger point of emphasis, but who knows? Just go by era, determine the best from their time, and let it be.

I swear, if I hear LeBron in the 80's wouldn't be the same player again I'll lose my mind.

[Baseline Runner]

Yes, it's a statement of fact.

There are not as many foreign bums in the league back then but I would take those foreign players over the current crops of foreign players in the league any day of the week.

Of course you would, you have a hilarious bias towards the era you grew up in.

So you actually think the current crop of foreigners led by Jokic and Giannis is comparable to this lineup?

PG - Steve Nash (he joined the league in 96)
SG - Drazen Petrovic
SF - Dominique Wilklins
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Patrick Ewing

That lineup could go toe to toe with any lineup or Dream Team in the history of the game. Gee, I wonder who is biased.

[AussieBuck]

There are not as many foreign bums in the league back then but I would take those foreign players over the current crops of foreign players in the league any day of the week.

Of course you would, you have a hilarious bias towards the era you grew up in.

So you actually think the current crop of foreigners led by Jokic and Giannis is comparable to this lineup?

PG - Steve Nash (he joined the league in 96)
SG - Drazen Petrovic
SF - Dominique Wilklins
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Patrick Ewing

That lineup could go toe to toe with any lineup or Dream Team in the history of the game. Gee, I wonder who is biased.

lol, seems like a fair representation.

[benson13]

Here are the most lauded players from the 80's onward:
-Magic
-Bird
-Jordan
-Hakeem
-Shaq
-Kobe
-Duncan
-Lebron

The Bulls were too late for the Celtics-Laker era, and ended their reign before the Duncan-Shaq-Kobe era. Hakeem and the Rockets would've been Jordan's scariest opponent, but it never happened. If the Bulls had played the Rockets in the mid-90's or Spurs in the late 90's, that would've been interesting, because the Bulls never got an opponent of that caliber.

Can't help but be a homer on this comment, but... Stockton and Malone belong on your list... Stockton, all time assist leader... Malone, 2nd all time scoring leader (ahead of Jordon himself)... It's not like that team was composed of weak players, and Jordon went through them twice to earn rings. It's not like Jordon just walked his way through easy competitors to get those rings.

Every player listed won a ring.

[axeman23]

There are not as many foreign bums in the league back then but I would take those foreign players over the current crops of foreign players in the league any day of the week.

Of course you would, you have a hilarious bias towards the era you grew up in.

So you actually think the current crop of foreigners led by Jokic and Giannis is comparable to this lineup?

PG - Steve Nash (he joined the league in 96)
SG - Drazen Petrovic
SF - Dominique Wilklins
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Patrick Ewing

That lineup could go toe to toe with any lineup or Dream Team in the history of the game. Gee, I wonder who is biased.

Wilkins, Ewing and Hakeem all played for Team USA, so not sure why you're using them to demonstrate the "amazing foreign talent" jordan faced. also from the list you quoted from, kiki was a roleplayer by the bulls championship runs, Kucoc played WITH Jordan, and the Sabonis that Jordan played against in NBA was an injury-riddled shell of the player he was in his prime...

[Baseline Runner]

Of course you would, you have a hilarious bias towards the era you grew up in.

So you actually think the current crop of foreigners led by Jokic and Giannis is comparable to this lineup?

PG - Steve Nash (he joined the league in 96)
SG - Drazen Petrovic
SF - Dominique Wilklins
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Patrick Ewing

That lineup could go toe to toe with any lineup or Dream Team in the history of the game. Gee, I wonder who is biased.

Wilkins, Ewing and Hakeem all played for Team USA, so not sure why you're using them to demonstrate the "amazing foreign talent" jordan faced. also from the list you quoted from, kiki was a roleplayer by the bulls championship runs, Kucoc played WITH Jordan, and the Sabonis that Jordan played against in NBA was an injury-riddled shell of the player he was in his prime...

Because they came from foreign countries and I was responding to a poster who claimed there was no foreign talent in the NBA at Jordan's time.