KCP deserves more blame for Pistons offensive struggles?

[313 Professor]

Without an elite P&R playmaker or back to basket scorer that can draw help, more facilitation is needed from the 2 spot because he can't just spot up and get quality looks. When Reggie Jackson or Ish Smith fail to create offense from a P&R and swing to the 2, the 2 has to be able to run another P&R or iso and be a threat. KCP has improved there but he is definitely a below average P&R option and unreliable, and doesn't really have the body type/body control to get much better there.

Also, when trying to get the ball to KCP as a go-to option, the off-ball screen/handoff 3's aren't good go to offense. He has hit a few, drawn fouls on some, and actually gets open at a good rate, but considering he isn't an elite shooter and how unreliable of a playoff play that is without other high level offensive options to compliment it.... it's an option with him you should use in select situations only. His "call for a pick, quick dribble and take a long two" offense isn't something you can count on either.

KCP is a below average iso player. When Tobias and Marcus get the ball, both are at least average at running P&R and getting iso 1-on-1 buckets. KCP is below average at both.

In an offense predicated on P&R's and motion, that has no elite P&R, iso, or post option KCP doesn't really fit. His defense and energy is excellent but we need somebody who can create some offense from the 2. I hope it could be healthy Reggie off the bench in some spurts next year, but his recent defensive struggles (maybe due to health/too many minutes) worry me on the other end.

KCP is PERFECT for a team with a high level offensive option (or two) already on it, but for us without one he's probably not worth that money he could get. He could go to another team and probably be a near 40% 3pt shooter because of the looks he'll get, and the perfect 3&D guy. Not here. We need to create more offense 1 through 4 since Drummond may never draw a double team for those baby hooks

This thread is a semi-sequel to this one. For the poll I went 5. Solid streaky shooter w/good range but not elite, good speed fullcourt in transition, but can't iso, can't run p&r too well, can't finish in the paint or mid-range well in traffic, and slightly TO or bad shot prone if dribbling too much. I don't have a scale for the whole league but 5 meaning he's an average NBA offensive threat all-around.

Thoughts on KCP offensively?

[MotownMadness]

He's definitely avg offensively, I did post some stats a few months ago showing KCP in the 90th percentile on catch and shoot situations putting him elite in that category. He's also got the whole clutch thing going for him. Don't know where he's at in that list now but a few months ago he was top 8 in the league as a clutch scorer.

[davidvolumes]

Groom kcp to play pg just as harden or Westbrook. To be most effective kcp needs the ball in his hands. He would be a much better player at pg because the strength of his game is the midrange game. Proven to be a good facilitator and finishes aggressively. Much better option than ish or Reggie. Blame it on the coach for not best seeing how to use his players

[joedumars1]

Kcp has been trying to kill it ever since rj was sat. He hasn't been hitting tho. Dude has been clutch this year probably won us 5-7 games by himself. I know not much, but for one player.

I'm as scared as the next person to pay him, but we have to.

[Darko Miliminutes]

This guy has chit handles, and we gonna groom him to pg?? OK

[joedumars1]

Groom kcp to play pg just as harden or Westbrook. To be most effective kcp needs the ball in his hands. He would be a much better player at pg because the strength of his game is the midrange game. Proven to be a good facilitator and finishes aggressively. Much better option than ish or Reggie. Blame it on the coach for not best seeing how to use his players

He's been trying that harden game lately, but he isn't hitting. Can he? Yes. Consistently? I don't know. When he is hitting it's **** sweet

[joedumars1]

This guy has chit handles, and we gonna groom him to pg?? OK

Um? This isn't rookie kcp anymore. He has decent handles

[DBC10]

Read on Twitter

KCP has been very solid this year as a PnR handler. Primarily in finding Dre for lobs and dump offs but he's been showing promise as a secondary playmaker for some time.

It's really not KCP this year. His contributions this year far outweighs his negative odds.

[davidvolumes]

I don't see what u see in regard to his handles darko. He has better handles than Reggie. Coming out of college Westbrook was not thought to be a pg. Actually kcp is not a sg. Have you looked at his stats? Shooting 40% from the 2 and 36% from the 3. I think he would be a terror in p n r to defend.

[joedumars1]

Not the right thread, but why tf do we not run Tobias and dre pnr? Come on Stan

[313 Professor]

Read on Twitter

KCP has been very solid this year as a PnR handler. Primarily in finding Dre for lobs and dump offs but he's been showing promise as a secondary playmaker for some time.

It's really not KCP this year. His contributions this year far outweighs his negative odds.

This stat... is that every P&R run this season? Even if there are multiple P&R per posession? I try not to get with the stats too serious because there are so many variables (quality of look created, good looks made, bad looks made, p&r turnovers, defensive effort, point in the game P&R occurred, etc). Any advance stats that point to KCP being a poor iso player? I know I've seen that with my eyes

I don't think KCP is a better P&R handler than Ish. From what I've seen... if it's 4th quarter or playoff defense, I don't want KCP running a P&R when we need a bucket. Most likely we're getting a long 2 or 3 from KCP out of it and that isn't reliable offense.

[Pharaoh]

Read on Twitter

KCP has been very solid this year as a PnR handler. Primarily in finding Dre for lobs and dump offs but he's been showing promise as a secondary playmaker for some time.

It's really not KCP this year. His contributions this year far outweighs his negative odds.

This stat... is that every P&R run this season? Even if there are multiple P&R per posession? I try not to get with the stats too serious because there are so many variables (quality of look created, good looks made, bad looks made, p&r turnovers, defensive effort, point in the game P&R occurred, etc). Any advance stats that point to KCP being a poor iso player? I know I've seen that with my eyes

I don't think KCP is a better P&R handler than Ish. From what I've seen... if it's 4th quarter or playoff defense, I don't want KCP running a P&R when we need a bucket. Most likely we're getting a long 2 or 3 from KCP out of it and that isn't reliable offense.

Some PnRs are run to lead into another play while others are run to score - yet they're all included as PnRs!

This is why advanced stats have to be taken with a grain of salt.

As for mid range jumpers being poor offense: if you've got a guy who can get that shot whenever he wants and make it then that's good offense.

Every team in the league is trying to deny corner 3s, shots at the rim and FTs - because the numbers show those are the most effective shots...this means the mid range J is likely to be there whenever you want it.

That doesn't mean you build your offense around it but having a couple of dudes that can go get it when you need it is good.

It's the same with 3s and creating:

You need multiple guys that do these things in order to be successful

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[Pharaoh]

Read on Twitter

KCP has been very solid this year as a PnR handler. Primarily in finding Dre for lobs and dump offs but he's been showing promise as a secondary playmaker for some time.

It's really not KCP this year. His contributions this year far outweighs his negative odds.

This stat... is that every P&R run this season? Even if there are multiple P&R per posession? I try not to get with the stats too serious because there are so many variables (quality of look created, good looks made, bad looks made, p&r turnovers, defensive effort, point in the game P&R occurred, etc). Any advance stats that point to KCP being a poor iso player? I know I've seen that with my eyes

I don't think KCP is a better P&R handler than Ish. From what I've seen... if it's 4th quarter or playoff defense, I don't want KCP running a P&R when we need a bucket. Most likely we're getting a long 2 or 3 from KCP out of it and that isn't reliable offense.

Some PnRs are run to lead into another play while others are run to score - yet they're all included as PnRs!

This is why advanced stats have to be taken with a grain of salt.

As for mid range jumpers being poor offense: if you've got a guy who can get that shot whenever he wants and make it then that's good offense.

Every team in the league is trying to deny corner 3s, shots at the rim and FTs - because the numbers show those are the most effective shots...this means the mid range J is likely to be there whenever you want it.

That doesn't mean you build your offense around it but having a couple of dudes that can go get it when you need it is good.

It's the same with 3s and creating:

You need multiple guys that do these things in order to be successful

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

[El Chivo]

Read on Twitter

KCP has been very solid this year as a PnR handler. Primarily in finding Dre for lobs and dump offs but he's been showing promise as a secondary playmaker for some time.

It's really not KCP this year. His contributions this year far outweighs his negative odds.

Marcus Morris

[Pharaoh]

Without an elite P&R playmaker or back to basket scorer that can draw help, more facilitation is needed from the 2 spot because he can't just spot up and get quality looks. When Reggie Jackson or Ish Smith fail to create offense from a P&R and swing to the 2, the 2 has to be able to run another P&R or iso and be a threat. KCP has improved there but he is definitely a below average P&R option and unreliable, and doesn't really have the body type/body control to get much better there.

Also, when trying to get the ball to KCP as a go-to option, the off-ball screen/handoff 3's aren't good go to offense. He has hit a few, drawn fouls on some, and actually gets open at a good rate, but considering he isn't an elite shooter and how unreliable of a playoff play that is without other high level offensive options to compliment it.... it's an option with him you should use in select situations only. His "call for a pick, quick dribble and take a long two" offense isn't something you can count on either.

KCP is a below average iso player. When Tobias and Marcus get the ball, both are at least average at running P&R and getting iso 1-on-1 buckets. KCP is below average at both.

In an offense predicated on P&R's and motion, that has no elite P&R, iso, or post option KCP doesn't really fit. His defense and energy is excellent but we need somebody who can create some offense from the 2. I hope it could be healthy Reggie off the bench in some spurts next year, but his recent defensive struggles (maybe due to health/too many minutes) worry me on the other end.

KCP is PERFECT for a team with a high level offensive option (or two) already on it, but for us without one he's probably not worth that money he could get. He could go to another team and probably be a near 40% 3pt shooter because of the looks he'll get, and the perfect 3&D guy. Not here. We need to create more offense 1 through 4 since Drummond may never draw a double team for those baby hooks

This thread is a semi-sequel to this one. For the poll I went 5. Solid streaky shooter w/good range but not elite, good speed fullcourt in transition, but can't iso, can't run p&r too well, can't finish in the paint or mid-range well in traffic, and slightly TO or bad shot prone if dribbling too much. I don't have a scale for the whole league but 5 meaning he's an average NBA offensive threat all-around.

Thoughts on KCP offensively?

To the bold: so because our C & PG are seriously flawed we need KCP to be...more?

You're talking about the dude that gives 100% on D 99.9% of the time while the majority dont!

Yep, let's blame him!

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[313 Professor]

To the bold: so because our C & PG are seriously flawed we need KCP to be...more?

You're talking about the dude that gives 100% on D 99.9% of the time while the majority dont!

Yep, let's blame him!

Lol I underlined the part about his defense and energy being great. Basketball is not like football though. Where you can't blame a RB because the OL can't block.

What every player brings to the floor... and doesn't... is important. Yea RJ and Drummond are flawed but we have to make up that offensive playmaking SOMEWHERE. We can't just pay another good player big money and have the same clear weakness.

Because of their contracts we might be stuck with Drummond and RJ but I'm not opposed to moving them either. RJ preferably to the bench and maybe trade Drummond.

I wouldn't mind running more of a two PG offense with Morris, Tobias, and Drummond if we can find a pair that can perform on defense. With those 3 we NEED a 1/2 pair very competent running P&R and just dribbling even if they aren't big scorers. Can't have the ball keep stopping to where we're running hopeless dribble hand-offs until the shot clock runs out... then have to force up some garbage smh

[Moses ShamMoses]

I pretty much agree with 313's assessment. However, KCP has impressed me with his P&R ability to get other guys good looks (ex. Andre lobs) but if that is taken away he settles for a long two or a bad drive. KCP doesn't have very good body control or finesse in the paint to create much else. Hilliard is a guy who I think has excellent offensive potential at the two spot (has good body control, can shoot with both hands, etc). I could see him being a very good player someday. I know he hasn't done a lot with his chances to play but I hope SVG keeps trying to develop him.

[313 Professor]

Possibly meaningless maybe not sidenote... We are 3-1 without KCP. That's 75%. Easily #1 in the East.

[Snakebites]

I'm genuinely curious to see what happens with KCP.

I know the bosses said they'd be willing to pony up to resign him, but that was back when we thought we had a 44 win team on its way up. Gotta figure there's a legit shot that changes in light of, well, recent events.