Giannis' Development part 3 - SI Cover/Article - Page 35

[Prez]

It's ok, if you don't have a clue about basketball, it's easy to believe that Giannis is worse now than in December.

I mean, less PPG.

Except that's not what we're basing it on, like at all. Pretty much the exact opposite really.

[Presence]

It's ok, if you don't have a clue about basketball, it's easy to believe that Giannis is worse now than in December.

I mean, less PPG.

Except that's not what we're basing it on, like at all. Pretty much the exact opposite really.

It'd be reasonable if he didn't pretty much explain the thought process that he goes through to help the team win, even if it means he's less involved.

[Prez]

It's ok, if you don't have a clue about basketball, it's easy to believe that Giannis is worse now than in December.

I mean, less PPG.

Except that's not what we're basing it on, like at all. Pretty much the exact opposite really.

It'd be reasonable if he didn't pretty much explain the thought process that he goes through to help the team win, even if it means he's less involved.

Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not basing anything on his raw numbers at all.

[Presence]

Except that's not what we're basing it on, like at all. Pretty much the exact opposite really.

It'd be reasonable if he didn't pretty much explain the thought process that he goes through to help the team win, even if it means he's less involved.

Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not basing anything on his raw numbers at all.

You mention less impact, ball dominance and hesitation. Where is all that coming from?

[Prez]

It'd be reasonable if he didn't pretty much explain the thought process that he goes through to help the team win, even if it means he's less involved.

Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not basing anything on his raw numbers at all.

You mention less impact, ball dominance and hesitation. Where is all that coming from?

NBAwowy data for players with/without GA on court, lower net rating on team, both RPM and net on/off falling off throughout the season. Shouldn’t have said ball dominance, he is technically holding the ball more and dribbling more since New Years but that’s not what I meant, meant more about the ball kinda sticking at times, with his decision making not being as sharp and hesitating more. Not purely the volume of his touches. And that’s just an eye test thing. Again it's not a consistent thing, just something that's happened more imo in the 2nd half than the 1st half of the year, and more so in the half court.

[Presence]

Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not basing anything on his raw numbers at all.

You mention less impact, ball dominance and hesitation. Where is all that coming from?

NBAwowy data for players with/without GA on court, lower net rating on team, both RPM and net on/off falling off throughout the season. Shouldn’t have said ball dominance, he is technically holding the ball more and dribbling more since New Years but that’s not what I meant, meant more about the ball kinda sticking at times, with his decision making not being as sharp and hesitating more. Not purely the volume of his touches. And that’s just an eye test thing. Again it's not a consistent thing, just something that's happened more imo in the 2nd half than the 1st half of the year, and more so in the half court.

Metrics are impacted by the shift in match-ups of the 1st half. He's playing with a net negative combination of players due to seeing very little time against bench players, as compared to the 1st part of the season. I suggest looking at 2nd half on/off and NetRtg if you're curious about his impact in games.

He's repeatedly mentioned that he's trying to get players involved early in the game so that it'll pay dividends later on; I think that it works.

His decision-making has been a lot better since earlier in the season, as well as his determination to control the tempo of the game. The only thing he hesitates about is his shot, and that's because he's a stupid ****.

[Prez]

You mention less impact, ball dominance and hesitation. Where is all that coming from?

NBAwowy data for players with/without GA on court, lower net rating on team, both RPM and net on/off falling off throughout the season. Shouldn’t have said ball dominance, he is technically holding the ball more and dribbling more since New Years but that’s not what I meant, meant more about the ball kinda sticking at times, with his decision making not being as sharp and hesitating more. Not purely the volume of his touches. And that’s just an eye test thing. Again it's not a consistent thing, just something that's happened more imo in the 2nd half than the 1st half of the year, and more so in the half court.

Metrics are impacted by the shift in match-ups of the 1st half. He's playing with a net negative combination of players due to seeing very little time against bench players, as compared to the 1st part of the season. I suggest looking at 2nd half on/off and NetRtg if you're curious about his impact in games.

He's repeatedly mentioned that he's trying to get players involved early in the game so that it'll pay dividends later on; I think that it works.

His decision-making has been a lot better since earlier in the season, as well as his determination to control the tempo of the game. The only thing he hesitates about is his shot, and that's because he's a stupid ****.

Sorry I meant 1st and 2nd half the season, not halves of games. Wasn't totally clear there. Your 2nd post makes more sense now.

In any case the problem is that his hesitation with the shot especially in slower tempo half court based games is a pretty big concern at times. It doesn't make him a net negative or make us better without him like in the idiotic strawman arguments thrown around by greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, but it does limit his impact a bit imo.

[Presence]

NBAwowy data for players with/without GA on court, lower net rating on team, both RPM and net on/off falling off throughout the season. Shouldn’t have said ball dominance, he is technically holding the ball more and dribbling more since New Years but that’s not what I meant, meant more about the ball kinda sticking at times, with his decision making not being as sharp and hesitating more. Not purely the volume of his touches. And that’s just an eye test thing. Again it's not a consistent thing, just something that's happened more imo in the 2nd half than the 1st half of the year, and more so in the half court.

Metrics are impacted by the shift in match-ups of the 1st half. He's playing with a net negative combination of players due to seeing very little time against bench players, as compared to the 1st part of the season. I suggest looking at 2nd half on/off and NetRtg if you're curious about his impact in games.

He's repeatedly mentioned that he's trying to get players involved early in the game so that it'll pay dividends later on; I think that it works.

His decision-making has been a lot better since earlier in the season, as well as his determination to control the tempo of the game. The only thing he hesitates about is his shot, and that's because he's a stupid ****.

Sorry I meant 1st and 2nd half the season, not halves of games. Wasn't totally clear there. Your 2nd post makes more sense now.

In any case the problem is that his hesitation with the shot especially in slower tempo half court based games is a pretty big concern at times. It doesn't make him a net negative or make us better without him like in the idiotic strawman arguments thrown around by greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, but it does limit his impact a bit imo.

Agreed, but his impending inability to perform in the Playoffs without a shot will definitely hit him hard and make him come back better.

[Prez]

Metrics are impacted by the shift in match-ups of the 1st half. He's playing with a net negative combination of players due to seeing very little time against bench players, as compared to the 1st part of the season. I suggest looking at 2nd half on/off and NetRtg if you're curious about his impact in games.

He's repeatedly mentioned that he's trying to get players involved early in the game so that it'll pay dividends later on; I think that it works.

His decision-making has been a lot better since earlier in the season, as well as his determination to control the tempo of the game. The only thing he hesitates about is his shot, and that's because he's a stupid ****.

Sorry I meant 1st and 2nd half the season, not halves of games. Wasn't totally clear there. Your 2nd post makes more sense now.

In any case the problem is that his hesitation with the shot especially in slower tempo half court based games is a pretty big concern at times. It doesn't make him a net negative or make us better without him like in the idiotic strawman arguments thrown around by greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, but it does limit his impact a bit imo.

Agreed, but his impending inability to perform in the Playoffs without a shot will definitely hit him hard and make him come back better.

God I hope it doesn't come to that. I don't think he's gonna suck in the playoffs, I just think offensively his game right now is a bit more easily contained by smart defenses than other stars. I hope he squashes that thought when it's time.

[har13]

In any case the problem is that his hesitation with the shot especially in slower tempo half court based games is a pretty big concern at times. It doesn't make him a net negative or make us better without him like in the idiotic strawman arguments thrown around by greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, but it does limit his impact a bit imo.

You forget me,we are not crazy Prez,we didn't do that,sorry but what you do is not fair.

[humanrefutation]

I think it's a fairly simple disagreement.

You have some fans, like myself, who believe Giannis is amazing and worthy of praise and adoration, but also has flaws that are worth critiquing in the hope that he gets better.

You have others, those Giannis fanboys like greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, who believe Giannis is so great that any critiques of his play are a personal affront to the mythology they've built around him. So, instead of engaging with those critiques, they respond by lashing out in defense of Giannis's honor - as if any criticism of him demeans his status as a great player. It comes from a place of insecurity, as they've invested so much emotion in Giannis that they cannot engage with any possibility that he's anything less than a superstar.

The problem with that second group is that they're overly defensive in the way they engage with this topic. This is because they are not used to watching greatness, and they don't understand that EVERY. GREAT. PLAYER. has dealt with the critiques of their greatness as soon as they begin to show signs of it - LeBron was considered a poor shooter and too scared in big moments, Durant was considered soft. Kobe and Westbrook were (are?) considered black holes with poor shooting numbers. Harden's defense. Shaq's inability to be effective outside of the paint and his overall laziness in preparing for the season. Iverson was a ball hog who didn't practice. Jordan was considered a scorer who couldn't carry a team to win. The list goes on.

Being afforded greatness doesn't mean you don't face scrutiny - it means that the scrutiny will become so much more intense. You fanboys and fangirls might get annoyed with some of the posters here, but I wonder how you'll react when those criticisms become part of a national/international conversation that dominates discussions in spaces a lot more prominent than our board. Because guess what? That's what's about to happen next. That's the price you pay for trying to become a superstar.

[greekbuck34]

Giannis' fanboys is the true problem here. The seed of each argument.
Everyone else is logical in whatever they say.
Especially if he is not from Greece because if you were born there you MUST think that Giannis is perfect all the time.
We get it.

[ReasonablySober]

Being afforded greatness doesn't mean you don't face scrutiny - it means that the scrutiny will become so much more intense. You fanboys and fangirls might get annoyed with some of the posters here, but I wonder how you'll react when those criticisms become part of a national/international conversation that dominates discussions in spaces a lot more prominent than our board. Because guess what? That's what's about to happen next. That's the price you pay for trying to become a superstar.

Great point. The relative mild criticism you see here is nothing. If what many think will happen does occur, and Giannis takes up the mantle as the best player in the league in a couple years, there won't be a day that goes by without some kind of national writer or commenter calling him soft or can't lead or can't shoot...whatever. Bayless made himself rich by calling out LeBron James. How taek artists are gonna do the same with Giannis. Save your meltdowns for that, fanboys.

[JimmyTheKid]

I think it's a fairly simple disagreement.

You have some fans, like myself, who believe Giannis is amazing and worthy of praise and adoration, but also has flaws that are worth critiquing in the hope that he gets better.

You have others, those Giannis fanboys like greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, who believe Giannis is so great that any critiques of his play are a personal affront to the mythology they've built around him. So, instead of engaging with those critiques, they respond by lashing out in defense of Giannis's honor - as if any criticism of him demeans his status as a great player. It comes from a place of insecurity, as they've invested so much emotion in Giannis that they cannot engage with any possibility that he's anything less than a superstar.

The problem with that second group is that they're overly defensive in the way they engage with this topic. This is because they are not used to watching greatness, and they don't understand that EVERY. GREAT. PLAYER. has dealt with the critiques of their greatness as soon as they begin to show signs of it - LeBron was considered a poor shooter and too scared in big moments, Durant was considered soft. Kobe and Westbrook were (are?) considered black holes with poor shooting numbers. Harden's defense. Shaq's inability to be effective outside of the paint and his overall laziness in preparing for the season. Iverson was a ball hog who didn't practice. Jordan was considered a scorer who couldn't carry a team to win. The list goes on.

Being afforded greatness doesn't mean you don't face scrutiny - it means that the scrutiny will become so much more intense. You fanboys and fangirls might get annoyed with some of the posters here, but I wonder how you'll react when those criticisms become part of a national/international conversation that dominates discussions in spaces a lot more prominent than our board. Because guess what? That's what's about to happen next. That's the price you pay for trying to become a superstar.

I haven't contributed to this particular thread because it seems to have oddly taken off when the Bucks started to play better basketball. Like we're programmed to find something, anything to complain about. Sure, Giannis isn't perfect. And every great player is put under a microscope. But I guess I just don't understand the need to cram his shortcomings down everyone's throat right now. Especially considering the trajectory of his career to this point. He's making ridiculous, maybe unprecedented or unparalleled, leaps and bounds every season. When the team has heightened expectations, like "championship contenders," there will be plenty of time to scrutinize Giannis' "clutch gene." Until then, why not just enjoy the growth?

[M-C-G]

Sorry I meant 1st and 2nd half the season, not halves of games. Wasn't totally clear there. Your 2nd post makes more sense now.

In any case the problem is that his hesitation with the shot especially in slower tempo half court based games is a pretty big concern at times. It doesn't make him a net negative or make us better without him like in the idiotic strawman arguments thrown around by greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, but it does limit his impact a bit imo.

Agreed, but his impending inability to perform in the Playoffs without a shot will definitely hit him hard and make him come back better.

God I hope it doesn't come to that. I don't think he's gonna suck in the playoffs, I just think offensively his game right now is a bit more easily contained by smart defenses than other stars. I hope he squashes that thought when it's time.

I don't have any stats to back this up but his transition scoring has to be way down from where it was early in the season. Probably has a bit to due with going from Jabari to Middleton, just very different paced players. And what I would assume is a reduction in the number of turnovers that lead to transition opportunities, we just don't seem to be running like we were early in the season.

[greekbuck34]

[Prez]

You forget me,we are not crazy Prez,we didn't do that,sorry but what you do is not fair.

Yes you guys actually did. Sarcastically ripping on arguments no one has made like "we'd be better without him" is strawmanning.

Giannis' fanboys is the true problem here. The seed of each argument.
Everyone else is logical in whatever they say.
Especially if he is not from Greece because if you were born there you MUST think that Giannis is perfect all the time.
We get it.

This is funny coming from you considering your post literally right before this one generalized Americans. Okay to generalize Americans, but the thought of Greek fans being biased towards a Greek player is somehow absurd?

[greekbuck34]

You forget me,we are not crazy Prez,we didn't do that,sorry but what you do is not fair.

Yes you guys actually did. Sarcastically ripping on arguments no one has made like "we'd be better without him" is strawmanning.

Giannis' fanboys is the true problem here. The seed of each argument.
Everyone else is logical in whatever they say.
Especially if he is not from Greece because if you were born there you MUST think that Giannis is perfect all the time.
We get it.

This is funny coming from you considering your post literally right before this one generalized Americans. Okay to generalize Americans, but the thought of Greek fans being biased towards a Greek player is somehow absurd?

Just the thought is not absurd.
The instant conclusion that every Greek fan is biased towards Giannis everytime they disagree with you is though.

[chonestown]

Giannis named player of the month. Overlooks Delly's plus/minus for March imo.

[har13]

I think it's a fairly simple disagreement.

You have some fans, like myself, who believe Giannis is amazing and worthy of praise and adoration, but also has flaws that are worth critiquing in the hope that he gets better.

You have others, those Giannis fanboys like greekbuck and 3Diamantidis, who believe Giannis is so great that any critiques of his play are a personal affront to the mythology they've built around him. So, instead of engaging with those critiques, they respond by lashing out in defense of Giannis's honor - as if any criticism of him demeans his status as a great player. It comes from a place of insecurity, as they've invested so much emotion in Giannis that they cannot engage with any possibility that he's anything less than a superstar.

Go and read 3diamantidis posts and come again if you please ,he is for sure the one guy you can't say that for,but you know what i believe,you all here Bucks fans,you post here for many years,many of you know each other in person,that means that you cannot be objective.
For example,we were speaking about how Giannis was playing last month,the opinions were different,some of us believe he was very good,not great tho,others believe he was not good and others that he is negative,and i ask you again,they gave him the Player of the month award ,what you expect us to do?not say anythin about it,not to use it to have some fan with the other posters who believe he was negative?

And i ask you now,why you posted after that and call us Giannis fanboys,why you needed to tell us that you love Giannis from day 1?
Of course posters And 1 you for that ,sorry but all of you are wrong.

No one said that you don't love Giannis,the opposite i believe,that you gave him a lot of love,you believed that he is going to be a great player before even me and many Greeks,no one said that he is a perfect player,no one believes that,this is not what we were speaking about when you said that,

To call one poster Giannis fanboy is not a bad thing,to call it like we are blind when we speak about him then yes, its wrong,when you can use it all the times that someone from Greece says something good about Giannis then you know that its not fair for him right?
When i 'm saying something bad about Giannis its all good when i disagree and i say something good about him then i'm from Greece and i'm a fanboy.

I don't like Giannis because he is the perfect player,i like him because he can die in the court for his team and his teammates,and sorry man we maybe don't know about Nba superstars,most important we don't see the game as one man show like you do but Greek teams have won 9 of the last 20 euroleague titles ,we lost many in final 4 too,all the time we criticize our players when they not perform well even if the game is not important,imagine what we are doing to them when they are not perform well in a final 4..