I'm Not High On....

[Trader_Joe]

Seems like every thread and all of us tend to use the expression I'm not high on XXX player when discussing trades. It's a very arbitrary and easy expression to use. But what if we tried quantifying or expanding on it? Let's also do it the other way, players we are higher on than most. I think it would also help us know poster's better and what they look for in players.

Please list 3 players you are not high on relative to others and 3 players you are higher on than others.

For each list, explain what you think the general consensus is on that player, where you sit in relation to the general consensus and why you diverge as much as you do. And to make it more interesting, 1 player from each list much be a player from your favorite team and each player must be a full time rotation player.

Feel free to add more than 3.

[Texas Chuck]

and each player must be a full time rotation player.

What about highly regarded prospects? For instance we had a thread not too long ago where some posters were suggesting Skal is the 2nd best prospect from last year's draft. He's not a full time rotation player, but clearly opinions can vary significantly on this type of player's value and they come up in deals a lot too.

[Trader_Joe]

and each player must be a full time rotation player.

What about highly regarded prospects? For instance we had a thread not too long ago where some posters were suggesting Skal is the 2nd best prospect from last year's draft. He's not a full time rotation player, but clearly opinions can vary significantly on this type of player's value and they come up in deals a lot too.

He is full time now for the Kings no?

And he might be on my I am high on him list coincidentally. Love his potential.

[Texas Chuck]

I'll start by saying I'm high on talented proven veterans. So anytime there is a Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Marc Gasol etc trade I'm going to need to be blown away by a package of picks/prospects to think the value is there for those players.

I'm also lower on draft picks than most. I think people overvalue the picks because they unintentionally view the BCS instead of a more realistic one. Plus too much stock is put into the rookie deals. Rookie deals are going up, but you are better off with a highly compensated proven vet than you are with a cheap but wildly inconsistent rookie in most cases.

Will try specifics later.

[Hedda Gambler]

Nice thread.

I`m not high on...

1: Rodney Hood (own team, Utah Jazz)
I see all this love for Rodney Hood and how great he is, while what I see is an extremely streaky player who is not very good on defense, is injured too much and has not improved at all really since he entered the league. When I started a thread about hm in this forum a while ago, people thought I was insane for wanting to gauge his value.

2: Kyrie Irving
One of the most talented offensive players in the league who IMO gets too much love, especially from media figures. What I hear when they talk about him on ESPN is that he`s this elite player who is a real stud. As a number 2 to LeBron, sure, he`s great. As a leader and a true superstar, he just does`t bring enough on both ends.

3: Steven Adams
This one I just don`t get. On Dunc`d on and other podcasts, they talk about Adams being one of the great young centers in the league. He`s a good player who brings a lot of energy, but I just can`t see anything that he is truly elite at.

[stitches]

I'm high on Skal, Jaylen Brown, Derrick Favors
I think Skal and Brown are future all-stars. I think Derrick Favors is a top 30 player in the league and people suffer from collective amnesia when it comes to him. They have very quickly forgotten how good he is when healthy.

I'm not high on DeMarcus Cousins, LaMarcus Aldridge, Gorgui Dieng - (From my team... Hood - too inconsistent and too much impacted by injuries)

I think Dieng is the type of player you reluctantly give a starting spot to but the moment you do it, you realize he's not good enough and you need something better. In other words - the search for a starter doesn't end, it just begins with Dieng. And he's paid like a starter so... yeah... he's overpaid IMO. I think Cousins is probably top 10 talent in the league, but his toxic attitude and behavior poisons every chance of your team being great with him. It's true the Kings haven't been the best organization in the world, but it's also clear Cousins was part of the problem, not part of the solution. I actually like their future now better than with Cousins. About Aldridge - I never bought in completely with him. He's an inefficient scorer, who's alright on D. Give me healthy Favors over him any day of the week.

[FNQ]

I'm not high on:

- Paul George: relative to my perception of what his value is to most fans. I have him as a top 15/20 player and I'm not sure a team that has him as their best player is a strong contender.

- Isaiah Thomas: think he's a niche player thats found a good one, but I question if it will work in the playoffs. As gaudy as the #s are, I still think he's better suited as a 6th man (a 30mpg 6th, but still)

- DeMarcus Cousins: when talent and maturity level don't add up, problems can arise. He can always mature, but right now, I wouldnt want him on my team. If he cant succeed next to the extremely level-headed AD, I really dont know what to do with the guy

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm very high on:

- draft picks in this CBA: picks are always valuable as cost-controlled assets, but now even more so with the cap rising and draft picks' salary not rising in lockstep. More especially, I value players in the back half of the 1st round who look like role players - the cost difference between them and established role players is astronomical

- Brandon Ingram: I see him as a long-term Durant type. Needs another year or two, but I'm ridiculously sold on his upside. In 2 years, will be the face of the Lakers franchise.

- Frank Ntkilina: Will be underdrafted because he's a Euro guard. IMO, he's the 4th best player in this draft. I'd take him after Fultz/Ball/Jackson were off the board. And if I'm being honest, I might even take him over Ball. I'm not super sold on that guy.

[Trader_Joe]

Nice thread.

I`m not high on...

1: Rodney Hood (own team, Utah Jazz)
I see all this love for Rodney Hood and how great he is, while what I see is an extremely streaky player who is not very good on defense, is injured too much and has not improved at all really since I entered the league. When I started a thread about hm in this forum a while ago, people thought I was insane for wanting to gauge his value.

2: Kyrie Irving
One of the most talented offensive players in the league who IMO gets too much love, especially from media figures. What I hear when they talk about him on ESPN is that he`s this elite player who is a real stud. As a number 2 to LeBron, sure, he`s great. As a leader and a true superstar, he just does`t bring enough on both ends.

3: Steven Adams
This one I just don`t get. On Dunc`d on and other podcasts, they talk about Adams being one of the great young centers in the league. He`s a good player who brings a lot of energy, but I just can`t see anything that he is truly elite at.

Exactly what I was hoping for.. thanks Hedda.

[stitches]

Nice thread.

I`m not high on...

1: Rodney Hood (own team, Utah Jazz)
I see all this love for Rodney Hood and how great he is, while what I see is an extremely streaky player who is not very good on defense, is injured too much and has not improved at all really since he entered the league. When I started a thread about hm in this forum a while ago, people thought I was insane for wanting to gauge his value.

2: Kyrie Irving
One of the most talented offensive players in the league who IMO gets too much love, especially from media figures. What I hear when they talk about him on ESPN is that he`s this elite player who is a real stud. As a number 2 to LeBron, sure, he`s great. As a leader and a true superstar, he just does`t bring enough on both ends.

3: Steven Adams
This one I just don`t get. On Dunc`d on and other podcasts, they talk about Adams being one of the great young centers in the league. He`s a good player who brings a lot of energy, but I just can`t see anything that he is truly elite at.

Disagree about Hood. He's improved markedly on defense since he entered the league. Right now I'd say he's about average defender. The other part, you are right on - he's been inconsistent and he seem to be impacted by injuries a lot. And by that I mean not only the frequency of the injuries, but the fact that his game suffers a lot(more than it's natural) whenever something is not 100% right with him. He doesn't seem great playing through nicks and bruises.

[QRich3]

I'll start by saying I'm high on talented proven veterans. So anytime there is a Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Marc Gasol etc trade I'm going to need to be blown away by a package of picks/prospects to think the value is there for those players.

I'm also lower on draft picks than most. I think people overvalue the picks because they unintentionally view the BCS instead of a more realistic one. Plus too much stock is put into the rookie deals. Rookie deals are going up, but you are better off with a highly compensated proven vet than you are with a cheap but wildly inconsistent rookie in most cases.

Will try specifics later.

Yeah, I agree with this and can't stress it enough. So many guys like Wall, Irving, Wiggins, were can't miss superstars with Hall Of Fame upside, and they end up being just average allstars at best. Not to talk about other can't miss stars like Derrick Williams, Favors, Bogut, MKG, Thabeet, etc. People should take this into consideration when thinking how much blue chip draft picks are valued against an actual All-NBA player that already got there.

[Mystical Apples]

Weak play making, high usage scorers. DeRozan, Kanter, and Wiggins are the obvious choices but relatively speaking I'd include Anthony Davis who for some reason avoids similar scrutiny.

Davis is an ultra talent player who lacks passing awareness tying everything together as a primary scorer. Which is ultimately why his individual stats don't consistently translate to improved team offensive efficiency.

Porzingas gets honorable mention here, too. Another high-user who doesn't make plays for others. And I'm unconvinced his overall ceiling is as purported.

[pacers33granger]

Not high on:

1. IT - he's having a crazy good offensive season, but I feel it's almost completely offset by his defense. I also feel, relative to trade value, that any team trading for him will likely not be totally sold on paying him big bucks which will drive his value down. I also feel that teams will believe they can make Boston (or anyone trading for him) blink by giving him a massive deal and just get him free.

2. Tyler Johnson - I get Miami matching the contract to keep the asset but I have not been overly impressed with him anytime I've watched him. By no means is he a bad player and I think he's fine as a bench guard, but not making that kind of money.

3. PJ Tucker - never understood how he got the 3+D designation. One of the best wing defenders in the league, but he's only an ok shooter imo and has terrible form. The value Toronto gave for him was just right.

Honorable mention: Draft picks - have to agree with Chuck here, especially where so many guys are coming out super young which negates most of the cheap rookie years as they are usually net negative players during their cheap contract. A lot of people also tend to put value as the best possible scenario for a pick/player it seems.

High on:

1. Drummond - I feel people are disappointed because they want him to be something he's not and the value for him on these boards lately just seems really off to me. He's still one of the best rebounders in the league. He has a lot of holes that will likely never get patched and he's not a franchise player, but he's elite in a couple areas and rebounding is huge (perhaps this is a bias after watching a horrid rebounding frontcourt all year).

2. Demar - Yeah he's paid a lot, but he's been worth it and has proven it's not some hot streak or contract year thing. I don't think he's worth a superstar haul, but people on here seem to say they'd take on his contract and that's it, which is much lower than his actual value.

3. Okafor - I still believe he can be an effective starting center with the right training and focus.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not high on:



- Isaiah Thomas: think he's a niche player thats found a good one, but I question if it will work in the playoffs. As gaudy as the #s are, I still think he's better suited as a 6th man (a 30mpg 6th, but still)

He no longer fits in the other category, but he's my personal poster child for it. I was his lone champion on this board for at least 2 years so I feel a little vindication with the recognition he's getting for being an elite offensive player. I eat a lot of crow so I like having IT where I stuck my neck out against the board consensus.


My list:

I value less:

1. Boogie. People talk about him in superstar terms but he's never actually been that effective. Big box score numbers on a bad team need to be examined more closely than I think they were. I still think he was worth more than the Kings got, but not much.

2. Jae Crowder -- Now I think he's valuable, don't get me wrong, but I think too much emphasis is placed on his amazing contract. He's a good, but not great player.

3. Skal -- I get a lot of you are really high on him. I'm still a skeptic. Toolsy doesn't always translate. I'm not sure he's not Magic Randolph 2.0.

I don't see any Mavs who really fit this list. No current Mav has significant trade value. I'd say I'm lower on Barnes and Curry than most Mavs fans, but IDK that non-Mavs fans value either guy very highly so I'm probably in line.


I value more:

1. Rubio -- consensus seems to be he might be worth a late 1st. I think he's better and more valuable than that. Mavs will pick 9-11 or so and I would gladly give that pick for Rubio.

2. Marc Gasol -- I know his age and contract, but this guy is still such a great basketball player. I'd have him more valuable than Cousins without question and he's absolutely the better player right now

3. Dorian Finney-Smith --- again hard to pick a Mav for this list as I don't place a high value on any of them, but he was an undrafted guy who still has a long ways to go offensively. I can't imagine anyone sees his value as much, but if I re-drafted last year I'd have him as a late 1st

[Mystical Apples]

Higher than others would be similar to Chuck's list.... IQ guys who make plays for others or at least the potential is there. These types tend to figure it out:

Jokic obviously. Gasol, Winslow, Rubio, Iggy, Kaminsky, RHJ, and Batum. And I still have a thing for Kyle Anderson.

[Laerai]

Weak play making, high usage scorers. DeRozan, Kanter, and Wiggins are the obvious choices but relatively speaking I'd include Anthony Davis who for some reason avoids similar scrutiny.

Davis is an ultra talent player who lacks passing awareness tying everything together as a primary scorer. Which is ultimately why his individual stats don't consistently translate to improved team offensive efficiency.

I concur. I think Davis is more 10-15 range than 5-10 in terms of the best players in the NBA right now. He's still ridiculously young so obviously that makes him an untouchable as far as the Pels are concerned, but his actual impact is overrated. His assist percentage is too low in conjuction with his usage and I also think his defense and his rim protection in particular is only a little above average, despite what his BLK/STL numbers say. He also hasn't developed 3pt range like some of his peers this season.

I'm also tenatively low on Danny Green. Great defender but his shooting has been a lot more erratic the last few seasons and he has never been able to create for himself. Hope to see a return to 40% 3PT form soon.

[Trader_Joe]

I am high on:
Ricky Rubio - Seems he his building back his reputation some and maybe people are more in line with my perceived value but his shooting was always a huge knock that people used against him. After watching Kidd for years, I overlooked the shooting and focused on the D, passing and rebounding. People may think the Wolves should move on, but considering he's young, good and Dunn isn't good, I keep the guy unless a big offer is thrown my way.

Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot - Now that he's in the rotation I can mention him. Love his length, athleticism and his name just flows really nicely which I think his game can flow nicely as well as he develops. Poor stats and limited sample, so I'm not sure people think much of him, but I think he's got good value.

B.Lopez - Come on now, you knew I would say that. Plus how can I not be higher than most as most regard him as garbage? Love his new found 3 point game and passing.

H.M. Skal, Olynyk


I am not high on:
Trevor Booker - he can rebound, but rebounds with his hops and athleticism, not by boxing out trying very hard. He also thinks he's LBJ on the fastbreak..or at least what he thinks is a fast break (i.e. I rebounded the ball and am going to dribble down the court and take it to the hoop). I think people think he's a good rebounder, defender and a great teammate, but I think he's overrated (though productive) in each.

Andre Dummond - so inconsistent in his effort it's frustrating. Reminds me of Reggie Evans to certain extent in that he can rebound and not much else, though he certainly has the tools. Not sure what most would give for him, but I don't find his contract appealing.

Gallinari - I've seen such high expectations for a return when he was eligible to be traded, but I really don't trust his health and think the expected return was too high to begin with.

H.M. KCP

[bondom34]

Lower on than most:

Wiggins: I just see a poor defender who's essentially a volume scorer with not a ton else coming up for his career. Not at all a bad player, but not the number 1 pick type he's been played off as at times.

Derozan: Same as Wiggins but older and paid a ton

Draft picks for superstars: Chuck covered this, but people dream of the best scenario, when it almost never turns out that way. You're better off keeping the star in nearly every case to me.

Higher on than most:
Bledsoe: I see a well above average starter on a solid contract when healthy. If my med staff was good with it he's worth a late lotto pick to me.

Butler: He's on a bad team right now, but I'm not sure people realize the kind of season he's having. He's been amazing this year and isn't getting a ton of media for it. He's also signed relatively long term for a star on a cheaper deal with the new cap.

Lavine: I'd take him over Wiggins, if that means anything.

[GeorgeMarcus]

3: Steven Adams
This one I just don`t get. On Dunc`d on and other podcasts, they talk about Adams being one of the great young centers in the league. He`s a good player who brings a lot of energy, but I just can`t see anything that he is truly elite at.

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. The funny thing is I really like Adams' style, and he's clearly a worthy starting C, but so many people make him out to be more than he is IMO.

[Mystical Apples]

Yeah with Adams it depends on expectations and what teams are looking for. Clearly elite rim protectors who finish PnR are desirable but those guys don't grow on trees....it gets real thin after Gobert and Deandre.

I'd also prioritize elite playmaking 5's so Gasol and Jokic. But after that there's a case for young mobile bigs who accentuate - not eat or hinder - efficient usage from their perimeter teammates.

Viewed that way I'd rank Adams and Cody Zeller way higher than numbers suggest because DREBs and scoring can be achieved elsewhere, their mobility from 5 cannot.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Yeah with Adams it depends on expectations and what teams are looking for. Clearly elite rim protectors who finish PnR are desirable but those guys don't grow on trees....it gets real thin after Gobert and Deandre.

I'd also prioritize elite playmaking 5's so Gasol and Jokic. But after that there's a case for young mobile bigs who accentuate - not eat or hinder - efficient usage from their perimeter teammates.

Viewed that way I'd rank Adams and Cody Zeller way higher than numbers suggest because DREBs and scoring can be achieved elsewhere, their mobility from 5 cannot.

Cody Zeller is for sure underrated. He's having a comparable season to Adams and doesn't get treated that way at all.