I'm Not High On....

[daoneandonly]

Higher than Most On:

Justuf Nurkic: If only this thread was a few months back, I always though he was an incredible talent and he seems to be proving me right. I mention him because there were some low ball offers on these forums, funny thing is, many of those lowball offers ended up being better than the actual trade the Nuggets did.

Emmanuel Mudiay: it seems people think the guys is just straight garbage, whereas I think there's still potential there. Is his shooting terrible? Sure, but same holds true for many other PGs, I don't think he'll ever be elite, but I think he can be in the area of a Jeff Teague in terms of PG rankings.

Kelly Oubre: Though I'm a Mavs fan, I live in MD so see pretty much all of the Wizards game, I think this guy can be a straight up lock down defender and have an above average offensive game to boot. I actually think he's better than.........

Not so High on....

Otto Porter: I know the general consensus is he's going to get a max, I just don't see it. yes he's having a career year shooting the 3, but if Wall or Beal were to go down or miss extended time, he will be exploited as I think he's extremely flawed.

Brook Lopez: I know there are several who are in agreement that his value is low, and rightfully so, but I feel it's worth noting how low. He is complete and utter garbage, can't rebound or defend, which at the very least are the things you'd want from a C at the bare minimum, I wouldn't touch him for anything. How can you not rebound at over 7 ft tall?

George Hill: To me, should always be known as the guy who the pacers traded Kawhi for. I just don't see a star here, I see a serviceable role player who is more suited for the bench than a starting role. If Utah maxes him out (or comes close to it), they will regret it by the start of 2018, believe that.

I'd be remiss if I did not mention that Wes Matthews sucks, and my one hope in the offseason is the Mavs rid themselves of Mr. 3 for 10 at 17 million a year.

[daoneandonly]

I'm not high on:



- Isaiah Thomas: think he's a niche player thats found a good one, but I question if it will work in the playoffs. As gaudy as the #s are, I still think he's better suited as a 6th man (a 30mpg 6th, but still)

He no longer fits in the other category, but he's my personal poster child for it. I was his lone champion on this board for at least 2 years so I feel a little vindication with the recognition he's getting for being an elite offensive player. I eat a lot of crow so I like having IT where I stuck my neck out against the board consensus.


My list:

I value less:

1. Boogie. People talk about him in superstar terms but he's never actually been that effective. Big box score numbers on a bad team need to be examined more closely than I think they were. I still think he was worth more than the Kings got, but not much.

2. Jae Crowder -- Now I think he's valuable, don't get me wrong, but I think too much emphasis is placed on his amazing contract. He's a good, but not great player.

3. Skal -- I get a lot of you are really high on him. I'm still a skeptic. Toolsy doesn't always translate. I'm not sure he's not Magic Randolph 2.0.

I don't see any Mavs who really fit this list. No current Mav has significant trade value. I'd say I'm lower on Barnes and Curry than most Mavs fans, but IDK that non-Mavs fans value either guy very highly so I'm probably in line.


I value more:

1. Rubio -- consensus seems to be he might be worth a late 1st. I think he's better and more valuable than that. Mavs will pick 9-11 or so and I would gladly give that pick for Rubio.

2. Marc Gasol -- I know his age and contract, but this guy is still such a great basketball player. I'd have him more valuable than Cousins without question and he's absolutely the better player right now

3. Dorian Finney-Smith --- again hard to pick a Mav for this list as I don't place a high value on any of them, but he was an undrafted guy who still has a long ways to go offensively. I can't imagine anyone sees his value as much, but if I re-drafted last year I'd have him as a late 1st

Honest question from a fellow Mavs fan, wasn't one of the big issues with the Rondo debacle the fact that a PG who can't shoot just does not fit Carlisle's system? If so, wouldn't this just perpetuate that problem?

Or was it more the Rondo/Ellis incompatibility which our FO should have known from the get go?

[RaptorsLife]

I'm very high on

1. Paul George. He reminds me of Vince carter in toronto. He shows up for the marquee games and playoffs and coasts against everyone else. Top 10 player when locked in

2. Deandre jordan

3. Stanley Johnson


Not high on

1. Andre Drummond

2. Gordan Hayward

3. D'Angelo Russell

[Texas Chuck]

Honest question from a fellow Mavs fan, wasn't one of the big issues with the Rondo debacle the fact that a PG who can't shoot just does not fit Carlisle's system? If so, wouldn't this just perpetuate that problem?

Or was it more the Rondo/Ellis incompatibility which our FO should have known from the get go?

That's a very fair question. I think Rubio is just flat a better player than Rondo. I think even worse than his shooting was his ball stopping. Rubio doesn't just stand there pounding the dribble for 15 seconds every possession. And yes Curry/Matthews is a better complement to Rubio than Monta was to Rondo.

Plus I think Rubio would always take the open shots he got if Rick asked him to--and I think Rick would ask him to. It wasn't just the relative inability to make perimeter shots that hurt Rondo, but also his hesitance to take them. Rubio probably couldn't be quite as effective a shooter as old man Kidd was, butI think he could shoot 35% which is good enough to make teams have to honor him.

Also interesting to note Cuban coming out last night and saying a pass-first PG was the team's top priority for next year.

[giberish]

I'll go more for types of players, with some examples.

High on:

Wings who help a teams offenses without needing the ball much - especially if they're also strong on D. Most NBA players are used to playing with the ball that guys who move well and are threats to the defense without the ball IMO have extra value. Otto Porter, Trevor Ariza, etc.

Guards who play defense. While guards overall are worse on defense then bigs, the gap between the best and worst defensive guards is similar to the gap between the best and worst defensive bigs. So the top defensive guards are bringing real value. Rubio, Bledsoe, Smart (health permitting for Rubio/Bledsoe).

I'm not sure he fits a type that gets underrated, but Cody Zellar certainly is. Charlotte's center problem this year was just about the games he missed to injury, not a need for a better starter. Perhaps 'bigs who catch and finish well, make FT's and don't demand post-ups for ego'.

Not so high on:

Wings who need to dominate the ball, but aren't good enough to justify it. Evan Turner is the classic case. Some aging stars who can't/won't transition into more of a role player also fit here at times. Wade riight now for instance.

Offensive bigs who can't pass effectively. To make up for weak D they need to upgrade a teams offense, but without passing they'll score themselves but don't really help a team's offensve that much. Al Jefferson was a long-time example, Okafor a new one. Vucevic for a while as well (though his D quietly improved this year to have some value).

Yonng players who score a lot without providing much else. Lots of young guys in high-usage roles have bad +/- impacts. The ones who improve are usually the ones who are showing at least some other box-score impact - assists/rebounds/steals/blocks. The ones who only score are less interesting. Wiggins, Parker, Barnes (Dallas version).

[loserX]

Fun thread...love the "home team" inclusion.

Higher than most:

Unconventional centres. I understand it's harder to build around plodding post scorers than around high-flying rim protectors, but I don't think that makes the former useless. I still see value in guys like Brook Lopez, Greg Monroe, Nik Vucevic, and even Big Al Jefferson (although he's clearly winding down now).

Carmelo Anthony. Don't get me wrong, I don't much like the guy either and it irks me to defend him. But I still believe the NBA's rarest bird is a legit #1 option, especially if he's also a "star"...and Melo is that. He'll never get his peak value back but I personally don't buy into the "Knicks would be lucky to get expirings" narrative I sometimes see on this board. He's not THAT bad.

Home team - Derrick Favors. Obviously his injury issues this season sap his value, no question. But much like my comments on unconventional centres, I do *not* think the Jazz should rush to dump him so they can add a stretch 4 and play like every other team does. His pluses outweigh his minuses and give us a different wrinkle, and as long as his knee heals up I hope we keep him.

Lower than most:

Rim protectors who can't play offence. Like Chuck mentioned, I too am wrong much of the time so I'll thump my chest on the occasion I'm right I said at the start: the Biyombo contract was terrible (especially for an already limited offence like Orlando's). A number of people said it was at least defensible if not ideal; I remember Raps fans wanting to dump JV in order to keep him also. Rim protection is great, but if a guy cannot catch the ball, coaches won't start him. And you shouldn't pay him as such.

Courtney Lee. This is more of a long-standing one than anything recent. I like the guy and how he plays, but he's been traded a few times and his value is *never* what the TTB seems to expect it to be. (Darren Collison used to be the poster boy for this syndrome.) I suspect if he gets traded again, his value won't be as high as expected this time either.

Home team - Rodney Hood. Others have pointed out some of his shortcomings...he's a good player and we need his skillset, but he also needs to grow a bit offensively. Another guy with injury issues wherein I hope getting past them lets him focus a bit more.

[Nolan]

I am not high on:

1. DeMarcus Cousins - Never was really. Puts up numbers but really doesn't seem to care all that much about winning really.

2. Klay Thompson - Amazing shooter and a great scorer and all but it bothers me when he get's called one of the best two way players in the league. I'm really not all that impressed with his defensive abilities, he's above average but nothing special in my opinion.

3. LaMarcus Aldridge - I'm not that down on LMA but since I had to pick someone from my team and everyone else seems to be as down on Tony as I am he's gotta be my pick by default.

I am high on:

1. JaMychal Green - Love him. One of those guys that has mastered all the little things that impact winning on both ends of the court. He really understands the game well, moves well off the ball on both ends, solid man to man defender, stretches the floor and is actually fairly athletic. He should get paid this summer.

2. Kyle Anderson - He's barely in the rotation but he is at the moment so he's my pick. He always wants to pass and he moves kinda awkwardly but he's super talented and really has an amazing feel for the game. He's one of our best defenders (right behind Kawhi and Green) and lately he's been looking for his own shot more often and it's working for him. With some more minutes and a little more confidence in his own shot he'll become a great role player for us.

3. Avery Bradley - Thomas and Horford get most of the attention in Boston but Avery's awesome. Efficient scorer, good shooter, amazing defender and one of the best rebounding guards in the league which is impressive considering that he's 6'2.

[Djh7475]

Guys I'm high on (Celtics fan):

1. Marcus Smart - might be the most unique player in the game - very few metrics/stats come close to quantifying his impact
2. Kelly Olynyk - extremely inconsistent but overall an extremely underrated 2 way player
3. Klay Thompson - gets 4th wheel treatment in Golden State, but he's still one of the best 2 way players in the game
4. Patty Mills - has been the best 2 way guard on the Spurs for a little while now
5. Khris Middleton - gives the Bucks a combination of what AB and Crowder give the Celtics but with better playmaking ability
6. Jaylen Brown - think he's going to be a special 2 way player in the mold of Jimmy Butler
7. Andre Drummond - could thrive if used like Deandre but the Pistons are asking for too much
8. Joe Ingles - thought he was younger than he is until recently, but he's a perfect complementary player in today's NBA

Guys I don't like:
1. Kyrie Irving - regularly rated higher than guys that score more more efficiently without guys like Lebron and Love giving them regular single coverage
2. Hassan Whiteside - lack of shooting and mobility make him a poor fit against the upper echelon teams in the NBA
3. Russell Westbrook - seems like most guys would hate to play with him and his stat hunting and absurd ball dominance makes it hard for teammates to get into any sort of rhythm (and then they get blamed for missing open shots)
4. Steven Adams - doesn't seem like he's developed in a few years and is still just a solid but unspectacular big
5. Deangelo Russell - just think he's wildly overrated despite being an inefficient non-playmaking guard who can't defend
6. Brook Lopez - I don't think you can build a contender with him making starter money

[wolves_89]

Higher than most:

Ricky Rubio - Watching Wolves games with him on and off the court makes it pretty clear the impact he has on the game. Advanced stats also consistently rate him very highly.

Amir Johnson - A guy who makes a huge contribution but doesn't get much respect.

Greg Monroe - Style doesn't fit the modern NBA, but he is still a highly productive player.


Lower on than most:

KCP - He's a decent player who is in line for a very large contract. I just don't see the upside or production to warrant him being considered among the top SGs in the league.

Evan Fournier - Good shooter who doesn't do a lot else.

Paul George - While still a very good player it seems like his production has fallen out of the super star category.

[KqWIN]

Trevor Booker - he can rebound, but rebounds with his hops and athleticism, not by boxing out trying very hard. He also thinks he's LBJ on the fastbreak..or at least what he thinks is a fast break (i.e. I rebounded the ball and am going to dribble down the court and take it to the hoop). I think people think he's a good rebounder, defender and a great teammate, but I think he's overrated (though productive) in each.

This gave me a chuckle. I love Book, but he was maddening to watch. My least favorite plays where when he whiffed on an offensive rebound and gave up a layup on the other end. Couldn't stand it!

[BBallFreak]

I'm going to stay away from my own team because I don't want my homerism to play a part in all of this.

High on:
Kenneth Faried - underrated dirty work power forward. Overpaid to a degree, but certainly serviceable. I look at him as a throwback.

Kris Middleton - Perfect 3&D guy with enough offense to justify being a part of any core.

Seth Curry - i wanted this guy in Miami coming off the bench with Tyler Johnson. Would have been dynamic together IMO.

Not high on:
Kyrie Irving - I know, I know, he's great, yada yada. Just something about him I don't trust as a player.

Kemba Walker - undersized and unable to distribute. I feel like he should be doing more with what he has.

Joel Embiid *covers his head, ready for a shoe to be thrown* - Hear me out; he's great. I'm not disputing that. It's the injuries. I just don't trust he'll have a longer career than Greg Oden from here on out. I wouldn't invest a penny in him at this point. I understand why Philly won't trade him, because the potential is certainly there, but because of the injuries, I wouldn't be willing to take him in anything but a steal of a deal.

[Mr Swagtastic]

Demarre Carroll take him for free hell I will give you a first next year as well

[LightTheBeam]

I'm high on

WCS - His rebounding has improved immensely. I think hes much better than say Nerlens Noel but he doesn't seem to get the same love around here.

Draymond Green - He seems like an afterthought. I'd argue hes probably the best PF in the entire league. This guy does everything and is the toughest guy in the league.

Seth Curry - This guy shoots off the hook. I wanted the Kings to keep him badly and was sorely disappointed he left. He has/will become a 6th man of the year candidate or a solid starter on a winning team.

Honorable mention - Kawhi Leonard I would have put him in the list. I've been saying hes the 2nd best player in the league for a few years now. Give me him over Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Durant easily.

Im not high on

Ricky Rubio - I hate pg's who can shoot above average from 3. It makes the game more difficult for the entire team.

Cam Payne - prior to the season Thunder fans were telling me this kid would become a solid starter and looks amazing. I question his ability to stay in the league past his rookie contract.

D'Angalo Russel - Inefficient and Inconsistent. I think he can become a good scorer in this league I just don't see future star type player. I also completely lost respect for him after the Nick Young debacle, if I cant trust you in my locker room I really don't want you on my team.

Honorable mention - Enes Kanter - Not a fan of big men like this. To slow for PF, not a shot blocker. Has a high usage but can't stretch the floor. I'd want him on my team off the bench at 8-12 mil. I definitely do not want to pay him 18 million a year for the next 2 to play off my bench. You can put Greg Monroe, Okafor in this list as well.

[penbeast0]

Guys I'm high on (Celtics fan):

1. Marcus Smart - might be the most unique player in the game - very few metrics/stats come close to quantifying his impact
2. Kelly Olynyk - extremely inconsistent but overall an extremely underrated 2 way player
3. Klay Thompson - gets 4th wheel treatment in Golden State, but he's still one of the best 2 way players in the game
4. Patty Mills - has been the best 2 way guard on the Spurs for a little while now
5. Khris Middleton - gives the Bucks a combination of what AB and Crowder give the Celtics but with better playmaking ability
6. Jaylen Brown - think he's going to be a special 2 way player in the mold of Jimmy Butler
7. Andre Drummond - could thrive if used like Deandre but the Pistons are asking for too much
8. Joe Ingles - thought he was younger than he is until recently, but he's a perfect complementary player in today's NBA

Guys I don't like:
1. Kyrie Irving - regularly rated higher than guys that score more more efficiently without guys like Lebron and Love giving them regular single coverage
2. Hassan Whiteside - lack of shooting and mobility make him a poor fit against the upper echelon teams in the NBA
3. Russell Westbrook - seems like most guys would hate to play with him and his stat hunting and absurd ball dominance makes it hard for teammates to get into any sort of rhythm (and then they get blamed for missing open shots)
4. Steven Adams - doesn't seem like he's developed in a few years and is still just a solid but unspectacular big
5. Deangelo Russell - just think he's wildly overrated despite being an inefficient non-playmaking guard who can't defend
6. Brook Lopez - I don't think you can build a contender with him making starter money

Was looking for a Celtic you weren't high on (per OP) . . .

[NashtyNas]

Not high on:

DeAndre Jordan - unless you're Shaq, being that poor of a free throw shooter is a detriment to your team. The fact that he can't play in crucial parts of the game because he can't hit the side of a barn from the free throw line makes me value his actual skillset far less than others. If your best players can't be on the court when you need them most, what are they really good for? He can put up all the gaudy numbers he wants - until he can be played in crunch time in the playoffs, he's just not worth it IMO.

Rodney Hood - much like others here, I think he's far too streaky and easily affected by minor (albeit nagging) injuries. He's also not a + defender which hurts given his streakiness on offense - if his shot is off, he can look really lost out on the court for long stretches.

Andre Drummond - Same reasoning as Jordan, except he's worse in almost every aspect. You can't build a team around these guys IMO.

Brook Lopez - despite stringing together some games, I don't trust his health and although he's good at what he does, his skillset is just not as valuable as it once was in the NBA. I don't think any team should give up a 1st for him, but someone probably will.

Demar Derozan - he's made huge strides from where he was just a season ago, but reasoning here is similar to Lopez. His skillset isn't as valuable because he is a wing that can't hit 3's and that has bitten Toronto in the rear end in the playoffs already. I think he's a glorified ISO scorer who isn't nearly as good as a guy like Melo but has had better team success in recent years due to the team around him.

Higher on than most:

Carmelo Anthony - this guy is now not even top 20 in a lot of peoples list which I find ludicrous. He's still one of the top 5-10 scorers in the league when healthy and in the right situation can be the second best player on a perennial contender. It's sad what he's done to himself by sticking with the Knicks for this long. I don't think he's worth a whole lot in a trade due to a plethora of reasons, but he's a far better player than he's been given credit for over the past several seasons.

Eric Bledsoe - I think he's top 5 PG material but injuries and inconsistency have been his problem. He's a bargain at his current price and plays well on both ends. Size and injuries have always hurt his value for others but I think he's worth far more than people give him credit for.

Bradley Beal - This guy is quitely having a monster season. It seems like every time something goes wrong with the Wiz, Beal gets blamed.. and every time something goes right, all the credit goes to Wall. Beal has quitely put up 23 PPG on nearly 50%/40%/80% efficiency and he's playing some decent defense to boot. I've got him as the 3rd best SG in the game behind Harden and Klay (because I view Butler as more of a 3) and ahead of Derozan... mostly because he's a far better shooter than Derozan is.

[BringtheD]

i try not to get too high or low on another teams guy. for the jazz it would have to be lyels. in most people eyes hes either already busted on on his way there. i think we still have hope here, even if lindsey was definitely high when he drafted him ahead of booker, its sad to see one of our players suffer from the mistake of being drafted to high because the gm had unrealistic expectations, which is what i thought the case was from the beginning. i know denver is bummed out with mudiay.

[Hedda Gambler]

I`m high on...

1: Rudy Gobert. People who don`t watch him much perceive him as this defense beast who doesn`t do anything else. What I see, is a man who is just as determined as Westbrook to win not every single game he plays in, but every single duel within a game. Rudy has surpassed my expectations by a lot this year with his offensive impact. If he keeps on developing his offensive game, the league better watch out.

2: Dante Exum. The league perception of him, watched through my eyes, is that Dante is a bust who doesn`t do anything at all on the court. What I see, is an extremely quick first step and great length. His step gives him the tools to become an offensive treath. His lenght gives him the opportunity to become a very good defensive player for his position.

3: Julius Randle. I`m not to sure on this one, but I believe most casual non-laker fans see Randle as more or less of a bust. I see a player who can do a bit of everything who could turn out to be a very impactful player when he gets a bit older.

[Trader_Joe]

Not high on:


Brook Lopez - despite stringing together some games, I don't trust his health and although he's good at what he does, his skillset is just not as valuable as it once was in the NBA. I don't think any team should give up a 1st for him, but someone probably will.

Wondering what this means as he is one of the best 3 point shooting bigs in the game (who is going to fall just short of Dirk's record as a 7 footer) and is best as a face up player taking his man off the dribble.. and is putting up some of his best efficiency in the fastest pace offense in the NBA. Basically he's got the game of a SF in a 7'1 260 pound body. He's not a good back to the basket/back his man down post up player and gone away from that for a few years. He's also become a much better passing C and been healthy for years as one of the more durable C's during that span. Seems his game became more valuable this season with the added 3 at minumum, no?

[stitches]

Yeah with Adams it depends on expectations and what teams are looking for. Clearly elite rim protectors who finish PnR are desirable but those guys don't grow on trees....it gets real thin after Gobert and Deandre.

I'd also prioritize elite playmaking 5's so Gasol and Jokic. But after that there's a case for young mobile bigs who accentuate - not eat or hinder - efficient usage from their perimeter teammates.

Viewed that way I'd rank Adams and Cody Zeller way higher than numbers suggest because DREBs and scoring can be achieved elsewhere, their mobility from 5 cannot.

You can find a thread or two around arguing about whose contract is better - Gobert or Adams'... Not insignificant portion of the people preferred Adams when those contracts were signed.

[bondom34]

Yeah with Adams it depends on expectations and what teams are looking for. Clearly elite rim protectors who finish PnR are desirable but those guys don't grow on trees....it gets real thin after Gobert and Deandre.

I'd also prioritize elite playmaking 5's so Gasol and Jokic. But after that there's a case for young mobile bigs who accentuate - not eat or hinder - efficient usage from their perimeter teammates.

Viewed that way I'd rank Adams and Cody Zeller way higher than numbers suggest because DREBs and scoring can be achieved elsewhere, their mobility from 5 cannot.

You can find a thread or two around arguing about whose contract is better - Gobert or Adams'... Not insignificant portion of the people preferred Adams when those contracts were signed.

Yeah that was a massive crow eating for me. Adams has been incredibly disappointing.