NBAWOWY Stats: 2008~11 Lakers (Kobe, Gasol + Odom)

[NO-KG-AI]

All 3 of their individual numbers and accolades speak for themselves, but this confirms what the eye test always suggested... The synergy made these guys better than the individual parts would suggest.

Testament to all of their versatility, and ability to adapt to a complex offensive system.


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[andrewww]

All 3 of their individual numbers and accolades speak for themselves, but this confirms what the eye test always suggested... The synergy made these guys better than the individual parts would suggest.

Testament to all of their versatility, and ability to adapt to a complex offensive system.


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Which begs the question is it better to be an elite individual who is able to adapt to a system, or having almost equal success but making other stars adapt to your game so that you are the system (ala what happened with the 2011-2014 Heat)?

[NO-KG-AI]

I think the Heat "problem" if you could call it that, was that Wade really offered nothing that LeBron didn't already do better, and then he declined swiftly. Same with Bosh really. The only thing he did at an elite level before Miami was score, and mostly from slashing and faceup drives.

I think your peripheral stars need other skill sets. I think if you put Michael, Kobe, etc in place of Lebron, the Heat would still have redundancy issues. Their biggest problem was they had no rebounding or true paint presence because all their resources were tied up into slashers.


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[andrewww]

I think the Heat "problem" if you could call it that, was that Wade really offered nothing that LeBron didn't already do better, and then he declined swiftly. Same with Bosh really. The only thing he did at an elite level before Miami was score, and mostly from slashing and faceup drives.

I think your peripheral stars need other skill sets. I think if you put Michael, Kobe, etc in place of Lebron, the Heat would still have redundancy issues. Their biggest problem was they had no rebounding or true paint presence because all their resources were tied up into slashers.


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Agreed, though at least the role players for the Heat were elite shooters and able to space the floor for Lebron/Wade/Bosh a lot more than the Laker role players who outside of Fisher and Ariza were not very consistent 3pt shooters.

[Colbinii]

All 3 of their individual numbers and accolades speak for themselves, but this confirms what the eye test always suggested... The synergy made these guys better than the individual parts would suggest.

Testament to all of their versatility, and ability to adapt to a complex offensive system.


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Which begs the question is it better to be an elite individual who is able to adapt to a system, or having almost equal success but making other stars adapt to your game so that you are the system (ala what happened with the 2011-2014 Heat)?

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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[andrewww]

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

[Colbinii]

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

There may be less portability, but we should also remember that Bosh was not only relegated by LeBron but also Wade.

Who is underselling Kobe's portability? It is obvious he is one of the greatest players at adapting to a single, dominant big man (like Shaq and Gasol). Kobe, unlike LeBron, never had to try and adapt to a perimeter player that was all-star caliber though. That would have been interest to see, as throughout history big/small have adapted far better than small/small.

[G35]

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

I agree Bosh, was clearly at a top 10 player level at the time of the trade.

PPG 24.0
REB 10.8
AST 2.4
BLK 1.0
TOV 2.4
FG% .518
PER 25.0
USG 28.7

He was 9th in scoring, 4th in PER, 6th in rebounding, 9th in USG, 7th in OWS. Those are the numbers.

What he was, was a poor man's David Robinson. Elite off the dribble, leading to his high FTr, athletic enough to get around nearly all big men and big enough to go over smaller players. Was not as good on defense as you would like, but he was the Raptors offense and he had Bargnani as the other big so you know that was a problem. Did not have the supporting cast, which likely led to his leaving Toronto.

With that skillset, what he brought to the team was also overlapped by Lebron and Wade. Athletic players who liked to penetrate and get to the line. You can't have three of those on the same team and not expect someone to get severely marginalized, that was Bosh.

With Kobe, he likes to penetrate as well but his ability to score without having to go to the FT line makes him markedly different than other perimeter stars. He supplied a different sort of gravity than say a James Harden. It opened the floor up for Bynum and Gasol......

[deezerweeze]

This was Pau's resume in six seasons before he joined LA.

1 All-Star team
0 All-NBA teams
0 MVP votes
Made post-season three times, swept in all three appearances
Not even regarded as top five at his own position
Consensus top 20-25 type in the league

These were his RAPM numbers:
2002: -0.3 (256)
2003: -0.8 (254)
2004: -0.2 (153)
2005: 1.4 (61)
2006: 1.3 (64)
2007: 0 (140

"Dominant" big.

A level above what Bosh ever reached? Please. 2010 & 2011 Bosh was at least as good as any version of Pau.

It's crazy that 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) completely crushes anything we saw from LBJ/Wade/Bosh.

2011 Heat: +12.5
2012 Heat: +14.3
2013 Heat: +10.7
2014 Heat: +5.3

And of course the way Kobe and Pau instantly had amazing synergy from their very first game was also remarkable, and it led to the 08 Lakers playing at a GOAT level over the second half of that season, and of course the 09 Lakers were one of the best teams ever.

Peak Kobe's portability, versatility, and ability to create synergy was so underrated and underappreciated..unlike some.

[sp6r=underrated]

All 3 of their individual numbers and accolades speak for themselves, but this confirms what the eye test always suggested... The synergy made these guys better than the individual parts would suggest.

Testament to all of their versatility, and ability to adapt to a complex offensive system.


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It also goes to show Phil was doing a lot more with those clubs than people appreciate it. Phil gets underrated because a lot of people think that he more or less just rolled the ball out for guys like Shaq and MJ who anyone could have coached to a title. I don't think he enjoyed some overwhelming high end talent advantage from 08-11.

The lakers were still the most successful franchise over that period. The only series they underachieved was the 2011 WCSF. That same group returned the next year without Phil and didn't at all resemble title contenders. Jackson deserves more credit than he gets.

[deezerweeze]

It wasn't anywhere near the same team in 2012. Because they replaced Phil with a crap coach in Brown, and they lost Odom, who was very valuable, and gave a much more prominent role to an inferior player/far worse fit and total blackhole in Bynum. And truthfully the 2011 Lakers didn't look like anything resembling a contender when it actually mattered. They limped past a mediocre NOH and got obliterated when they ran up against an actual contender.

It's clear that Bryant falling off a cliff from the last of his prime years (09/10) is the biggest reason for their total decline. Jackson was a great coach, but he gets more credit than he deserves.

[Senior]

I don't think the 08-11 Lakers were particularly stacked either but a coach can only do so much for his team - if the talent on the court isn't playing or executing well, then it doesn't matter what the coach does. Remember how Phil was getting in Pau's face in the Mavs series? Didn't matter. I think Phil managed that team well but he couldn't replace the stars no matter what he did. They had underperformed badly against NOH that lost David West right before the playoffs, so the writing was on the wall.

And yeah, the 2012 Lakers were missing than just Phil - they gave Odom away for nothing and Odom fit way better with Pau than Bynum did. They were forced to play the Bynum/Pau pairing way more which messed up their offense (down to 10th from 6th) but they still played at a 51 win pace in the RS. Phil with that team would be forced to play the Bynum/Pau pairing because they were a really top-heavy team. They were down to like 7 guys in the playoffs and only Pau/Kobe/Bynum were scoring more than 8 ppg until the Sessions trade. Everyone's efficiency was going down the drain because of all their offensive issues also (terrible spacing, redundant offensive stars) and Phil wouldn't have made them a contender. Just too far removed from what made them elite in 08-10.

[NO-KG-AI]

The Lakers weren't stacked in terms of superstar talent, but they checked off the boxes you need as a great team pretty well. Superstar offensive scorer that is a pretty strong passer... elite rebounding and size, good rim protection, great passing and ball movement as a team. Those are incredibly strong building blocks, and way surpasses just having big names that all contribute to the same areas of the game.

[Volcano]

Lakers were frontcourt heavy (Lamar/Gasol/Bynum), so Gasol's dropoff kind of makes sense.

I'd be interested in seeing Odom's numbers in other years. Seems like his dropoff/absence also coincided with the Lakers becoming non-contenders.

[tone wone]

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

Gasol (2nd option) Per36:
2008: 19.9ppg
2009: 18.3ppg
2010: 17.8ppg
2011: 18.3ppg

Bosh (3rd option) Per36:
2011: 18.5ppg
2012: 18.4ppg
2013: 18.1ppg
2014: 18.2ppg

The guy splitting touches with 2 all-nba 1st and 2nd teammates somehow managed to match the non-marginalized 2nd options scoring output. You know whats even crazier....

USG%
Pau
2008: 21.2%
2009: 20.4%
2010: 21.4%
2011: 21.8

Bosh
2011: 23.5
2012: 24.2
2013: 22.7
2014: 22.6

So odd that a 3rd option scores the same with a greater usage all while being "relegated" to a jumpshooter

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Im just baffled that people could watch Bryant from 2008-2011 and James from 2011-2014 and come to the conclusion that Kobe's the one who adjusted his game. Like how? I saw him "adapt" to declining athleticism. What you may see as "adapting" I see as "Triangle offense"

[Colbinii]

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

Gasol (2nd option) Per36:
2008: 19.9ppg
2009: 18.3ppg
2010: 17.8ppg
2011: 18.3ppg

Bosh (3rd option) Per36:
2011: 18.5ppg
2012: 18.4ppg
2013: 18.1ppg
2014: 18.2ppg

The guy splitting touches with 2 all-nba 1st and 2nd teammates somehow managed to match the non-marginalized 2nd options scoring output. You know whats even crazier....

USG%
Pau
2008: 21.2%
2009: 20.4%
2010: 21.4%
2011: 21.8

Bosh
2011: 23.5
2012: 24.2
2013: 22.7
2014: 22.6

So odd that a 3rd option scores the same with a greater usage all while being "relegated" to a jumpshooter

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Im just baffled that people could watch Bryant from 2008-2011 and James from 2011-2014 and come to the conclusion that Kobe's the one who adjusted his game. Like how? I saw him "adapt" to declining athleticism. What you may see as "adapting" I see as "Triangle offense"

Andrew is in love with Kobe Bryant and thinks he is a top 3-6 player of all time. Just letting you know that discussing anything LeBron/Kobe related with him is difficult as it lacks objectivity.

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[andrewww]

Well, Bosh and Wade were far more similar to LeBron in terms of how they operated compared to Gasol and Kobe.

We should also keep in mine that Gasol was in his prime throughout his time with Kobe, wherw Wade clearly wasn't, and Bosh simply was never on the level that Gasol reached.


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I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

Gasol (2nd option) Per36:
2008: 19.9ppg
2009: 18.3ppg
2010: 17.8ppg
2011: 18.3ppg

Bosh (3rd option) Per36:
2011: 18.5ppg
2012: 18.4ppg
2013: 18.1ppg
2014: 18.2ppg

The guy splitting touches with 2 all-nba 1st and 2nd teammates somehow managed to match the non-marginalized 2nd options scoring output. You know whats even crazier....

USG%
Pau
2008: 21.2%
2009: 20.4%
2010: 21.4%
2011: 21.8

Bosh
2011: 23.5
2012: 24.2
2013: 22.7
2014: 22.6

So odd that a 3rd option scores the same with a greater usage all while being "relegated" to a jumpshooter

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Im just baffled that people could watch Bryant from 2008-2011 and James from 2011-2014 and come to the conclusion that Kobe's the one who adjusted his game. Like how? I saw him "adapt" to declining athleticism. What you may see as "adapting" I see as "Triangle offense"

The Heat didnt win until Wade took a back seat and let Lebron be top dog. Thats ter players adjusting to him. It was the right move for them, and also Spoelstra realizing going small with Lebron at the 4 made floor spacing more optimal.

Kobe adapts because of the tools in his tool belt, if he couldnt hit jumpers and consistently forced the issue in the paint his bigs wouldnt be nearly as productive.

Also Colbinii is another resident Kobe detractor so just because most in this forum (but not outside of here) arent as high on Bean doesnt mean theyre right. Its all opinions at the end of the day.

[Colbinii]

I dont see it that way entirely.

Wade was still Wade in 2011. Bosh avged 24/11 on 52FG/80FT in his last season in TOR.

Conversely, Bosh was relegated to a jump shooter in Miami while he played out of the post and hit jumpers in TOR. While there was certainly overlap with Wade, I think its worth nothing that having the type of system they ran by adapting to Lebron illustrates less portability than you realize.

Gasol (2nd option) Per36:
2008: 19.9ppg
2009: 18.3ppg
2010: 17.8ppg
2011: 18.3ppg

Bosh (3rd option) Per36:
2011: 18.5ppg
2012: 18.4ppg
2013: 18.1ppg
2014: 18.2ppg

The guy splitting touches with 2 all-nba 1st and 2nd teammates somehow managed to match the non-marginalized 2nd options scoring output. You know whats even crazier....

USG%
Pau
2008: 21.2%
2009: 20.4%
2010: 21.4%
2011: 21.8

Bosh
2011: 23.5
2012: 24.2
2013: 22.7
2014: 22.6

So odd that a 3rd option scores the same with a greater usage all while being "relegated" to a jumpshooter

I think Kobe's ability to adapt is being understated a bit here. He loved to operate from the left elbow in the pinch post, which Gasol also did. But he was able to adapt.

Im just baffled that people could watch Bryant from 2008-2011 and James from 2011-2014 and come to the conclusion that Kobe's the one who adjusted his game. Like how? I saw him "adapt" to declining athleticism. What you may see as "adapting" I see as "Triangle offense"

The Heat didnt win until Wade took a back seat and let Lebron be top dog. Thats ter players adjusting to him. It was the right move for them, and also Spoelstra realizing going small with Lebron at the 4 made floor spacing more optimal.

Kobe adapts because of the tools in his tool belt, if he couldnt hit jumpers and consistently forced the issue in the paint his bigs wouldnt be nearly as productive.

Also Colbinii is another resident Kobe detractor so just because most in this forum (but not outside of here) arent as high on Bean doesnt mean theyre right. Its all opinions at the end of the day.

I am actually not a detractor, I just seem like one because you are extremely high on him and I am more middling on him (I have him 10-12 all time, a few have him 5-8, and a few have him 13-18, but I am in the middle).



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[tone wone]

The Heat didnt win until Wade took a back seat and let Lebron be top dog. Thats ter players adjusting to him. It was the right move for them, and also Spoelstra realizing going small with Lebron at the 4 made floor spacing more optimal.

Kobe adapts because of the tools in his tool belt, if he couldnt hit jumpers and consistently forced the issue in the paint his bigs wouldnt be nearly as productive.

Also Colbinii is another resident Kobe detractor so just because most in this forum (but not outside of here) arent as high on Bean doesnt mean theyre right. Its all opinions at the end of the day.

Wade's knees forced him to take a backseat. Yet with that...per36:
2011
Wade: 17.6fga 31.6usg%
James: 17.5fga 31.5usg%

2012
Wade: 18.5fga 31.3usg%
James 18.1fga 32.0%usg

2013
Wade: 16.5fga 29.5usg%
James: 16.9fga 30.2usg%

2014
Wade: 15.4fga 27.9usg%
James: 16.8fga 31.0usg%

The only year with any real separation is 2014....the year Wade fell out of his prime officially.

Fact is you're wrong. Not only have you completely overstated Bryants ability to adapt....but, you've completely whiffed on MIAs big 3 and how they made it work. It was not "let Lebron be Lebron and we'll adjust to him." Those 3 guys ALL adjusted. They ALL added aspects to their games to better fit with one another. You can do the same exercise with James-Irving-Love.

[HHera187]

Is that regular season numbers? What is the sample size?

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