2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[Frozzy]

I just don't see Harden winning it anymore and Co MVP's would be such a buzzkill. Rockets fanbase already seems to be having a meltdown. Oh man reading Clutchfans the last couple of games... Every time Westbrook 1 ups Harden every time he has a good game.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Westbrook is gonna get it, because Harden's play has curtailed over the last few games.

If you were to ask me, the MVP should be the same as the last two years. If we value winning as the most important thing.

[Pillendreher]

To be honest I believed Westbrook can do the triple double for a season even in 2015. When Durant was out, he had similar numbers as now. I don't think Westbrook is much better than then, just more usage and worse team around him.

Last 27 games of 2015 season without Durant: 31.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 9.9 apg. Obviously this year he rebounds better but it's because his teammates allow him to grab much more uncontested rebounds than in 2015.

It's 50 vs 50 right now for me, but Westbrook is paying out of his mind lately, so I guess he will win.

That team was very good offensively tho. And all he had to work with was Kanter, a couple of weeks of Adams and Ibaka, McGary, Morrow, Waiters, Singler and Augustin. Not exactly great either.

They couldn't defend tho.

[CnG]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

[Pillendreher]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

There not hiding him though. He's lazy at times, but they're not parking him on some dude who can't score. And I've never seen opponents actively seeking him out.

I don't like his lack of defensive effort either, but in the end I can't really fault him given his offensive load.

[CnG]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

There not hiding him though. He's lazy at times, but they're not parking him on some dude who can't score. And I've never seen opponents actively seeking him out.

I don't like his lack of defensive effort either, but in the end I can't really fault him given his offensive load.

I don't think they seek him out for ISOs because he's not that bad an on ball defender, but off ball is a different matter. I believe the Warriors matched Steph on Russ off the ball anytime they could to exploit him, that's what I meant in 'exploit'.

I also think having elite/very good (Roberson, Adams) or good (Oladipo) around him probably results in less effort. He can slack off knowing someone else is likely to do a bit more work, which also ties in with doing so much on one end. Obviously it's pure speculation/theory but if his lack of effort is due to thinking 'hey, I do damn near everything on the other end, you can try harder than me here', that'd make sense, and fair enough.

Only qualm with the whole lazy due to offensive load point was his horrific defence v Warriors in last year's playoffs. That was worse than anything we've seen this year with a smaller load to carry. But again, he could've been a bit burnt out by then.

For me, the defensive issues don't impact on his MVP campaign a lot, I've still got him ahead. And you're comparing him to Harden, it's not like he's up against Kawhi on that end.

[karkinos]

my rationale for harden over westbrook
1. historically it has been best player on one of the best/contending teams. houston is expected to get past the first round and will be a darkhorse in the playoffs, while okc is expected to exit in the first round
2. harden's team has significantly more Ws than westbrook's (yes people will argue the supporting cast but hold on)
3. westbrook has gotten a significant number of wins that correlate with his triple doubles. surely he is the sole reason his team is winning games. the question is, how necessary are triple doubles to achieve the same outcome (a victory)? could you replace westbrook with harden, lebron, or even chris paul or john wall and get 45ish wins? my answer is yes. i think there are other candidates that are far more efficient who can achieve the same outcome without needing a triple double to do it. westbrook puts the game on his shoulders because he wants to, and i would argue it isn't necessary to because i believe if you swap him with other great players in the league, he then becomes replaceable. he's making the best of his situation for his individual career, but certainly is not making his team better.
4. the best player in the league is lebron. if i had to pick ONE player to start a franchise with, it still wouldn't be westbrook, and would be painful to try to build around him. why? because getting the most out of westbrook requires that the rest of his cast is garbage or else he will have to take turns with the ball if there is another superstar next to him rather than complementing each other, which IMO will limit your ceiling until he learns more bball iq compared to his peers. so if he's not the best player in the league, and i'd pick a number of other mvp candidates over him if i had to start a franchise, what the hell is he winning the mvp for?

don't give westbrook a participation trophy for winning 47 games "the cool way".

[RightToCensor]

Shame on Rockets fans for being passionate about their MVP candidate. Are we really making fun of them for doing that?

It's not like Harden is a 2x MVP and has his legacy stamped already, he's still looking for his first MVP trophy after coming second in 2015. He might come in second this year, too, which is really frustrating for a guy who you think is better than that (and for most of the season he was better than second). Harden led the MVP ladder for most of the regular season, but lost steam the last two or three weeks which opened the door for Westbrook to get the last hurrah from fans and voters. At this point, Rockets fans want a real, decisive, and explained answer on who the MVP is. There are four real candidates all with a real chance of winning, so you should expect voters to recap the entire season for each player fairly and base their decision off of that research, not who had the best games to end the season. This MVP race is way closer than people think of it now. There isn't one player towering over the other: one guy is averaging 30-10-10, one guy is averaging 29-11-8, one guy is the only All-Star on a 60+ win team, and another is the undisputed best player in the world. Don't get fooled into thinking that whoever has the most people talking about him at the time is the unanimous MVP.

There is a clear bias for recent success, just look at when Kawhi Leonard beat the Rockets and had that clutch block on Harden. Kawhi jumped to the front of the MVP race after an article from Zach Lowe and a couple of steller games, he had all the momentum going for him at the time. Leonard voters did come back to Earth a week after, but I don't think there's enough time in the regular season to know if Westbrook's momentum would have cooled down.

[ProfessorJM]

Just interesting on a larger sample of last five minutes -- always like reading this kind of information about how % changes compared to normal minutes.

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

[The Box Office]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

No I get it. Russ earned the MVP. There is no right or wrong. There is THE BEST choice. That's what we have. I don't understand why you're knocking Westbrook for his defense. Harden is downright terrible himself ever since he got drafted. What are you on? So you knock Westbrook down on his MVP and then get give cheap sarcastic props at the end. Kudos to you.

[ShotCreator]

Westbrook is gonna get it, because Harden's play has curtailed over the last few games.

If you were to ask me, the MVP should be the same as the last two years. If we value winning as the most important thing.

Curry really doesn't have a great case over Westbrook's season, and I don't even think Westbrook is a better player.


I think there are around 3 better players than Westbrook this season, but he's probably having the best season in the NBA, maybe second behind LeBron.

Harden is clearly lower than the field to me at this point.

As players:
LeBron
Paul
Curry
Westbrook
Kawhi
Durant
Harden
Lowry

Best seasons:
Westbrook
LeBron
Curry
Harden
Kawhi
Paul

Gobert
Durant
'

I feel this way because in terms of game impact, Westbrook is clearly one of the best in the world, but where he has separated himself this season is his late-game motor on both ends, which has single-handedly won OKC games and caused this huge over-achievement. It remind me of '15 Harden, where he was probably a worse player than Curry but impacted the W/L on almost a superior level because of his late-game dominance, which obviously ran out during the playoffs because I usually feel things like that are aberrations against weaker NBA defenses. I wouldn't really want a guy who relies on pure late game heroics to win games, especially in the playoffs, and I specifically remember harden flaming out late in games during the LAC and GS series of the 2015 playoffs...


SO yeah, basically Westbrook is my 2017 regular season MVP, despite me questioning whether or not his game is technically sound enough to beat great defenses like Utah, SA, or GS late in post season games(Westbrook, like Harden did, relies a lot on getting to the foul-line late in games, along with an increased activity on the glass in the passing lanes, I just don't think he has the skillset to crush the sound teams with the same playing style in playoff clutch time, we will see.).

[CnG]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

No I get it. Russ earned the MVP. There is no right or wrong. There is THE BEST choice. That's what we have. I don't understand why you're knocking Westbrook for his defense. Harden is downright terrible himself ever since he got drafted. What are you on? So you knock Westbrook down on his MVP and then get give cheap sarcastic props at the end. Kudos to you.

Lol, cool.

Harden got KILLED for his defence when he was terrible. Russ gets a pass a lot of the time because he scowls and 'plays hard'. All I said was Harden has that over him, but then said it wasn't enough to impact his MVP campaign too much because Harden himself isn't an elite/good defender.

Perhaps you can try to understand that?

Kudos to you for taking it like you're Russ' cousin.

[The Box Office]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

No I get it. Russ earned the MVP. There is no right or wrong. There is THE BEST choice. That's what we have. I don't understand why you're knocking Westbrook for his defense. Harden is downright terrible himself ever since he got drafted. What are you on? So you knock Westbrook down on his MVP and then get give cheap sarcastic props at the end. Kudos to you.

Lol, cool.

Harden got KILLED for his defence when he was terrible. Russ gets a pass a lot of the time because he scowls and 'plays hard'. All I said was Harden has that over him, but then said it wasn't enough to impact his MVP campaign too much because Harden himself isn't an elite/good defender.

Perhaps you can try to understand that?

Kudos to you for taking it like you're Russ' cousin.

Yep. I win. I'm right. So oh damn. dude. You need to chill. Russ and his scowl? Puahahahah oh daang.

[RightToCensor]

Can we do without the fighting and snarky remarks. That'll weed out the people who have serious agendas against certain players.

[ken6199]

A few weeks ago it was Kawhi's. Then 'omg just give it to Harden already'. Now it's Westbrook.

I think the race has officially entered the part of 'final impression' phase. In that sense, Harden might reserve a bit because the Rockets have bigger plans in the playoffs, and Harden is still nursing his dominant wrist. OKC know they won't go far, WB knows that too, so we can expect him to go all out for the remaining games to get what he wants with *no restrictions*. We've seen it in his all star MVP, and scoring title last year.

Cant' say he doesn't deserve it though.

Pretty confident the Rockets will beat the Thunder in the playoffs? Would be hilarious if OKC beat them after reading this (which isn't out of the realm of possibility)

Sent from my VS990 using RealGM mobile app

Oh man don't put words in my mouth. I respect OKC, and never said I am confident to beat OKC in the playoffs. If u look at our regular season games, first 3 games were decided by a combined of 7 points. Only the last game we shot 51% from three (Ariza 6/8, LouWill 7/8) that we blew them out. If u give me Ariza and LouWill 13/16 from three in the playoffs, I go sell my house tomorrow and give it to you.

That said, Rockets are the favorite. OKC surely have less of a focus to go deep in the playoffs compared to Rockets, not saying we will go all the way, but at least reaching conference final can be a realistic goal. Regular season or not, these days if you don't shoot 3 well u won't have a big chance to keep up the score with opponents. Just look at the finals teams last year, one holds the nba single game 3pt record, one has historical shooters. It's a must.

[bmurph128]

A few weeks ago it was Kawhi's. Then 'omg just give it to Harden already'. Now it's Westbrook.

I think the race has officially entered the part of 'final impression' phase. In that sense, Harden might reserve a bit because the Rockets have bigger plans in the playoffs, and Harden is still nursing his dominant wrist. OKC know they won't go far, WB knows that too, so we can expect him to go all out for the remaining games to get what he wants with *no restrictions*. We've seen it in his all star MVP, and scoring title last year.

Cant' say he doesn't deserve it though.

Pretty confident the Rockets will beat the Thunder in the playoffs? Would be hilarious if OKC beat them after reading this (which isn't out of the realm of possibility)

Sent from my VS990 using RealGM mobile app

Oh man don't put words in my mouth. I respect OKC, and never said I am confident to beat OKC in the playoffs. If u look at our regular season games, first 3 games were decided by a combined of 7 points. Only the last game we shot 51% from three (Ariza 6/8, LouWill 7/8) that we blew them out. If u give me Ariza and LouWill 13/16 from three in the playoffs, I go sell my house tomorrow and give it to you.

That said, Rockets are the favorite. OKC surely have less of a focus to go deep in the playoffs compared to Rockets, not saying we will go all the way, but at least reaching conference final can be a realistic goal. Regular season or not, these days if you don't shoot 3 well u won't have a big chance to keep up the score with opponents. Just look at the finals teams last year, one holds the nba single game 3pt record, one has historical shooters. It's a must.

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth...just reading a Rockets fan that says these two quotes in the same post:

"OKC know they won't go far" and "Rockets have bigger plans in the playoffs", it comes off that the Rockets fan would be confident in that series. Not saying you should or shouldn't be - probably should be. The games have just been pretty close, as you pointed out. But you're right that the Rockets are the favorite obviously.

I'm sure Russ knows the Thunder have an uphill battle, but I would think that he as a player would also want to go as far as he can. I think that's the point that I was hung up on.

[Ballerhogger]

I still want harden to win it. His numbers are still there and clearly he's the leader locker room player.

[The Box Office]

A few weeks ago it was Kawhi's. Then 'omg just give it to Harden already'. Now it's Westbrook.

I think the race has officially entered the part of 'final impression' phase. In that sense, Harden might reserve a bit because the Rockets have bigger plans in the playoffs, and Harden is still nursing his dominant wrist. OKC know they won't go far, WB knows that too, so we can expect him to go all out for the remaining games to get what he wants with *no restrictions*. We've seen it in his all star MVP, and scoring title last year.

Cant' say he doesn't deserve it though.

Pretty confident the Rockets will beat the Thunder in the playoffs? Would be hilarious if OKC beat them after reading this (which isn't out of the realm of possibility)

Sent from my VS990 using RealGM mobile app

Oh man don't put words in my mouth. I respect OKC, and never said I am confident to beat OKC in the playoffs. If u look at our regular season games, first 3 games were decided by a combined of 7 points. Only the last game we shot 51% from three (Ariza 6/8, LouWill 7/8) that we blew them out. If u give me Ariza and LouWill 13/16 from three in the playoffs, I go sell my house tomorrow and give it to you.

That said, Rockets are the favorite. OKC surely have less of a focus to go deep in the playoffs compared to Rockets, not saying we will go all the way, but at least reaching conference final can be a realistic goal. Regular season or not, these days if you don't shoot 3 well u won't have a big chance to keep up the score with opponents. Just look at the finals teams last year, one holds the nba single game 3pt record, one has historical shooters. It's a must.

Yep. Russ gets the league MVP. That's final. But the Rockets will knock out The Thunder if they face each other in the first round. I think the series will go 6 games. The reason I say 6 games is because there is a lot of playoff experience with the Thunder even though they are bad.

[ken6199]

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth...just reading a Rockets fan that says these two quotes in the same post:

"OKC know they won't go far" and "Rockets have bigger plans in the playoffs", it comes off that the Rockets fan would be confident in that series. Not saying you should or shouldn't be - probably should be. The games have just been pretty close, as you pointed out. But you're right that the Rockets are the favorite obviously.

I'm sure Russ knows the Thunder have an uphill battle, but I would think that he as a player would also want to go as far as he can. I think that's the point that I was hung up on.

Certainly didn't mean to come off that way. Not long ago western conference first round all went down to 7 games (Houston Portland almost), and the game slowing down in the post season would probably also help OKC's big men better. Russ can score 50pt if he wants, and he as an efficient shooter, does have those 17/24 shooting nights here and there.

On the other hand, the league #2 offense regardless of the game slowing down or not, also have less of a chance to get cold across the entire 7 game series, and if they don't get cold, team like OKC will have a hard time keeping up the score with.

[ckman]

I think Russ will win for the wrong reasons despite it probably being the right decision, if that makes sense.

He's been fantastic, as has Harden, and I'm at the point where I wouldn't really consider either to be the wrong choice. It's just preference, and the Rockets fans on the first page of this are such homers it hurts.

I had Harden streaks ahead of Westbrook but Russ has improved his efficiency (to the point where he's actually better than Harden from 3 I believe, wow) whilst increasing volume too.

The one knock on Russ as an individual vs Harden is his defence. Russ is a pretty terrible defender (scowling and looking angry don't count) but when you put such a solid defensive cast around him it doesn't hurt the team much (apart from the smart team that exploit it). That's another reason I hate 'well Harden has shooters around him Russ doesnt' - yeah, because you can't hide people like Morrow when you have to hide Russ as well.

Props to Russ, absolutely fantastic season.

No I get it. Russ earned the MVP. There is no right or wrong. There is THE BEST choice. That's what we have. I don't understand why you're knocking Westbrook for his defense. Harden is downright terrible himself ever since he got drafted. What are you on? So you knock Westbrook down on his MVP and then get give cheap sarcastic props at the end. Kudos to you.

Lol, cool.

Harden got KILLED for his defence when he was terrible. Russ gets a pass a lot of the time because he scowls and 'plays hard'. All I said was Harden has that over him, but then said it wasn't enough to impact his MVP campaign too much because Harden himself isn't an elite/good defender.

Perhaps you can try to understand that?

Kudos to you for taking it like you're Russ' cousin.

Fun fact, Westbrook not only had the best defensive rating for OKC but also ranked 12 among the whole league. His on/off defensive rating for OKC is +2.1 while Harden is -5.2
I know defensive rating doesn't tell the whole story, but OKC indeed playing better defense with Westbrook on the court and you can't say the same about Harden. So i really don't know it's a good idea using defense to dish Westbrook against Harden.