2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[draftnightsuit]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

[Andre Roberstan]

No I get it. Russ earned the MVP. There is no right or wrong. There is THE BEST choice. That's what we have. I don't understand why you're knocking Westbrook for his defense. Harden is downright terrible himself ever since he got drafted. What are you on? So you knock Westbrook down on his MVP and then get give cheap sarcastic props at the end. Kudos to you.

Lol, cool.

Harden got KILLED for his defence when he was terrible. Russ gets a pass a lot of the time because he scowls and 'plays hard'. All I said was Harden has that over him, but then said it wasn't enough to impact his MVP campaign too much because Harden himself isn't an elite/good defender.

Perhaps you can try to understand that?

Kudos to you for taking it like you're Russ' cousin.

Fun fact, Westbrook not only had the best defensive rating for OKC but also ranked 12 among the whole league. His on/off defensive rating for OKC is +2.1 while Harden is -5.2
I know defensive rating doesn't tell the whole story, but OKC indeed playing better defense with Westbrook on the court and you can't say the same about Harden. So i really don't know it's a good idea using defense to dish Westbrook against Harden.

They're probably both about the same, though Russ grades out better on advanced stats due to his DRBs.

Individual DRtg is a very bad measure of defense. In this case, it indicates that Russ spends the majority of his time playing with Oladipo/Roberson/Gibson/Adams, which is a murderer's row of good to elite defenders for their position. And then when those guys sit, the bench is Christon/Abrines/Grant/Sabonis/Kanter, which has maaaaaybe 2 average defenders and a bunch of bad ones.

[Andre Roberstan]

At this point, Rockets fans want a real, decisive, and explained answer on who the MVP is. There are four real candidates all with a real chance of winning, so you should expect voters to recap the entire season for each player fairly and base their decision off of that research, not who had the best games to end the season. This MVP race is way closer than people think of it now. There isn't one player towering over the other: one guy is averaging 30-10-10, one guy is averaging 29-11-8, one guy is the only All-Star on a 60+ win team, and another is the undisputed best player in the world. Don't get fooled into thinking that whoever has the most people talking about him at the time is the unanimous MVP.

There never will be, because everyone's criteria are different. It's a subjective award. For me, it's kind of a combination of storyline, stats, clutch play, quality of teammates and wins (but my criterion for wins is basically "over .500"). For some they only care about the storyline. For others they only care about who's the best player. Some people with calculator souls base it on stats alone.

And I agree on the MVP race being close. FWIW, I had Harden as my MVP over Curry 2 years ago. And I truly think Westbrook deserves it, but if Harden gets it he's got plenty good enough a case for me to be fine with it. Same to some degree with Kawhi, Bron and Curry, who are the next 3 in my order, though I'd probably be a little annoyed. Recency bias being a thing, though, Harden's fading a little due to injury and Russ's recent tear will affect people, cause we're freaking human beings and not computers and that's how the human mind works.

I've not seen people agonize over an MVP vote like this in a long time. We're witnessing greatness on every side this season. Cherish it.

[The Box Office]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

No. There are exceptions. Those are super rare like Westbrook in this case. Averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring is a Unicorn season and OKC are locks to make the playoffs with a crappy roster. If the Thunder were not going to make the playoffs then Westbrook was not going to get the MVP regardless of the triple double.

[draftnightsuit]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

No. There are exceptions. Those are super rare like Westbrook in this case. Averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring is a Unicorn season and OKC are locks to make the playoffs with a crappy roster. If the Thunder were not going to make the playoffs then Westbrook was not going to get the MVP regardless of the triple double.

Westbrook's triple doubles are not impressive. He shamelessly pads his stats, plays no defense so he can grab cheap rebounds (which his big men get out of the way for him to get), and he shoots 42.6% which would be the second lowest for an MVP in the post-shotclock era (only Iverson is worse).

On top of that, his team won't even win 50 games. He's no MVP.

[RoyalWun]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

No. There are exceptions. Those are super rare like Westbrook in this case. Averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring is a Unicorn season and OKC are locks to make the playoffs with a crappy roster. If the Thunder were not going to make the playoffs then Westbrook was not going to get the MVP regardless of the triple double.

Westbrook's triple doubles are not impressive. He shamelessly pads his stats, plays no defense so he can grab cheap rebounds (which his big men get out of the way for him to get), and he shoots 42.6% which would be the second lowest for an MVP in the post-shotclock era (only Iverson is worse).

On top of that, his team won't even win 50 games. He's no MVP.

Team wins = team accomplishment.

[RoyalWun]

As good as Harden and the Rockets have been this year, Westbrook is having a historic season.

Historic season > Good season

[HotRocks34]

Getting ready for the Phoenix game. This could be the clincher.

[RightToCensor]

As good as Harden and the Rockets have been this year, Westbrook is having a historic season.

Historic season > Good season

Let's not act like Harden's season is not historic in it's own way. Oscar is the only player that has put up averages of 29 points, 11 assists, and 8 rebounds per game.

[Impuniti]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

No. There are exceptions. Those are super rare like Westbrook in this case. Averaging a triple double while leading the league in scoring is a Unicorn season and OKC are locks to make the playoffs with a crappy roster. If the Thunder were not going to make the playoffs then Westbrook was not going to get the MVP regardless of the triple double.

He's on 24 FGA/G, he should be leading in ppg.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-field-goal-attempts-per-game/2016/

[ocelot17]

As good as Harden and the Rockets have been this year, Westbrook is having a historic season.

Historic season > Good season

Harden 29 ppg, 11 apg, 8 rpg, leads team 3rd best record in the league = "good" season.

But, Westbrook averages two more rebounds a game leading his team to a 45-33 record and it's a historic season.

[primopastalove2]

At the mid-point of the season I thought excluding LBJ it was Harden's MVP to lose, but during these last two weeks that just happened and Westbrook is my MVP.

[Young_Star11]

I've got to a point where I'll be mad if Harden doesn't win. Nothing against Westbrook though, he would be a worthy winner.

What a lot people don't understand is that Harden is having a historic season on many levels too.

[bmurph128]

It's crazy how it's swung from "Harden's a lock" to "Westbrook is the favorite" - in terms of the general perception here.

Someone should make a BCS-esque formula for determining MVP and let a computer do it. It's not important enough that we would mind having a computer do it, but at the same time it's too important to not have a solid criteria.

[Gil]

Westbrook's already won imo. I thought it was Harden's to lose after they blew out the Thunder but he picked up that wrist injury & the rest is history.

Media has been begging to give it to him all season anyway.

[Young_Star11]

Funny how the last two weeks have supposedly swung it in Westbrook's favor. Never mind the rest of the season.

[ken6199]

At the mid-point of the season I thought excluding LBJ it was Harden's MVP to lose, but during these last two weeks that just happened and Westbrook is my MVP.

Fair take.

So last two weeks overwhelms half a season, is that what you are saying?

I assume not, just curious though.

[Doctor MJ]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

It's fascinating to me that people have all of these rules for MVP that aren't written anywhere in stone and would, rightfully, seem completely arbitrary to outsiders.

The more rigidly we view what is required in order to be "MVP", the less value the award has.

[draftnightsuit]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

It's fascinating to me that people have all of these rules for MVP that aren't written anywhere in stone and would, rightfully, seem completely arbitrary to outsiders.

The more rigidly we view what is required in order to be "MVP", the less value the award has.

50 wins is not arbitrary.

Kobe won 47 games with scrubs in '06 but lost to freaking Nash, who won 54 games.

Unless we're changing the rules, 50 wins is required.

[Doctor MJ]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

It's fascinating to me that people have all of these rules for MVP that aren't written anywhere in stone and would, rightfully, seem completely arbitrary to outsiders.

The more rigidly we view what is required in order to be "MVP", the less value the award has.

50 wins is not arbitrary.

Kobe won 47 games with scrubs in '06 but lost to freaking Nash, who won 54 games.

Unless we're changing the rules, 50 wins is required.

50 wins is not arbitrary, it's just so happens that we absolutely required a critical threshold of team success to evaluate individual performance that is a multiple of the number of fingers we have.

Also, you do realize guys have won the MVP before with less than 50 team wins, right?