2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[-Sammy-]

He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.

LeBron has been fabulous all season; even his most ardent haters have to admit that; therefore, the discussion concerns the quality of the rest of the team. You can't have it both ways-- you can't observe that they're under-performing in an attempt to dismiss LeBron's contribution, then turn around and proclaim that they have two all-stars to negate the importance of said contribution.

The evidence speaks for itself; they're been under-performing this season (as you rightly observed), yet they're a 50-plus-win team leading the entire conference; LeBron is the reason for that.

You can't be an MVP player if your team underperforms though, that's kind of a huge point of being an MVP during the year I would think.

That's debatable in the sense that one player can only do so much to coax the best out of another. What if you worked all year for a promotion only to have your boss say, 'you aren't getting promoted because the guy who works next to you did a lousy job'; that wouldn't be fair.

Obviously, LBJ is the leader of the team, but that doesn't change the reality that someone can only do so much to make someone else better; otherwise, let's criticize Jordan for never turning Bill Wennington into Bill Russell.

I agree that Bron has been great this season as well, but your job as a leader is to get the team to perform.. which they haven't.

51 wins, leading the conference = not performing?

So he's responsible for it.

I can flip that on you; I can point out that they're the conference leader despite how poorly they've performed in the second half of the season. If you say LBJ is responsible for them underperforming, I say he's responsible for them being in such a great position despite how badly they've struggled. Where does that leave us? Back to the ageless question of what an MVP actually is.

This seems like the only season where NBA fans are making a lot of changes on what's expected out the MVP.

Eh... this debate rages every season; it's just more pointed this year because the front-runners in the race are so tightly-arrayed in the home-stretch.

And for what it's worth, LBJ isn't my MVP (Harden is); I just take issue with your original assertion that he doesn't belong in the conversation. That team would be a wreck if he weren't there, so even if he's not the most valuable guy this year, it's silly to pretend like he isn't in the thick of the discussion.

[therealbig3]

Is this a joke?

The team under preforms and Lebron take's no responsibility? It's called being a **** leader.

Lebron EASILY has the 2nd most talented team in the NBA. They have 3 All-Stars, and they are winning way less games than they should.

The fact that the Cavaliers are not a 60 win team in the East is laughable.

When someone wins the MVP award, they usually over achieve. Lebron is woefully under achieving.

He shouldn't even be considered for the MVP.

The Cavs play well when he's on the court, and then play like crap when he's off the court.

Yup, it's LeBron's fault that nobody else on the team knows how to play defense or run an efficient offense without him.

I mean, I already explained this, but I expect you to totally ignore it and act indignant, as per usual.

Yeah I already heard Lebron cry about how nobody could run the offense and needed a play maker.

Then Griffin went out and got him the best backup Point Guard in the league.

Not exactly buying that excuse.

Hard for me to believe that the 2nd most talented roster in the NBA is just so terrible and awful. The problem then is either leadership or coaching.

Lebron is in charge of both.

Deron Williams took a terrible backup PG situation and somehow made it worse. They've been **** ing awful with Deron Williams as their backup.

I don't really care about what you believe. It's factual, they've sucked without him. Their 2 "All-Stars" also never led a team anywhere until they played with LeBron.

Can't believe I have to defend LeBron being the best player in the game to you people.

[therealbig3]

Yeah I'm pretty sure this isn't a random game, and is indicative of what Westbrook has been doing throughout the season.

Hard to have a bad plus minus when you have the highest usage rate in NBA HISTORY.

Except it's not indicative of what Westbrook has been doing all season. When he has a triple double this season, they have an extremely high winning percentage. He's been an efficient scorer and overall efficient offensive player all season long as well.

Usage rate and +/- are two totally different things and have nothing to do with each other. A ball hog that's stat padding to the detriment of the team would have a terrible +/-. Westbrook has one of the best. That means what he's doing works, and that he's doing a great job.

I'm not talking about his Triple Doubles. Westbrook is shooting 42% from the field. That's below league average.

I expect good efficiency from the MVP of the league, not worse than most of the NBA.

FG%?

Ok, I'm done here. Anyone that still uses FG% to measure offensive efficiency just hasn't been paying attention, or is willfully ignorant. Either way, this is a waste of my time.

[gmoney411]

Will be interesting to see how the Thunder finish the season. None of their games are gimmies at this point. I just can't imagine Russ getting the MVP if they end up 46-36.

[Hello Brooklyn]

The Cavs play well when he's on the court, and then play like crap when he's off the court.

Yup, it's LeBron's fault that nobody else on the team knows how to play defense or run an efficient offense without him.

I mean, I already explained this, but I expect you to totally ignore it and act indignant, as per usual.

Yeah I already heard Lebron cry about how nobody could run the offense and needed a play maker.

Then Griffin went out and got him the best backup Point Guard in the league.

Not exactly buying that excuse.

Hard for me to believe that the 2nd most talented roster in the NBA is just so terrible and awful. The problem then is either leadership or coaching.

Lebron is in charge of both.

Deron Williams took a terrible backup PG situation and somehow made it worse. They've been **** ing awful with Deron Williams as their backup.

I don't really care about what you believe. It's factual, they've sucked without him. Their 2 "All-Stars" also never led a team anywhere until they played with LeBron.

Can't believe I have to defend LeBron being the best player in the game to you people.

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

"They've sucked without him/they've played pretty badly with him over the past 3 months."

Also Kyrie Irving was like 20 when Lebron arrived, so it totally makes sense to say he never lead his team anywhere. His third best player put up 26/12. LOL

But that's not enough for Lebron. Lebron should not only have multiple all-stars on his team, these all-stars should also have lead their teams to the NBA Finals.

Next season I expect the Cavaliers to acquire Curry/Harden/Anthony Davis. Anything less would be insulting to the GOAT/King and would prove that he didn't have enough help.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Except it's not indicative of what Westbrook has been doing all season. When he has a triple double this season, they have an extremely high winning percentage. He's been an efficient scorer and overall efficient offensive player all season long as well.

Usage rate and +/- are two totally different things and have nothing to do with each other. A ball hog that's stat padding to the detriment of the team would have a terrible +/-. Westbrook has one of the best. That means what he's doing works, and that he's doing a great job.

I'm not talking about his Triple Doubles. Westbrook is shooting 42% from the field. That's below league average.

I expect good efficiency from the MVP of the league, not worse than most of the NBA.

FG%?

Ok, I'm done here. Anyone that still uses FG% to measure offensive efficiency just hasn't been paying attention, or is willfully ignorant. Either way, this is a waste of my time.

The percent you shoot from the field isn't the most important indicator of efficiency?

Are you sure you know how basketball works?

[-Sammy-]

Deron Williams took a terrible backup PG situation and somehow made it worse. They've been **** ing awful with Deron Williams as their backup.

I don't really care about what you believe. It's factual, they've sucked without him. Their 2 "All-Stars" also never led a team anywhere until they played with LeBron.

Can't believe I have to defend LeBron being the best player in the game to you people.

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

I don't think LeBron wanted a worse-than-terrible backup PG.

[ckman]

Please stop this Cavs is a trash team without Lebron argument. They won a damn ring last year. You can't just give all the credit to Lebron when they won and blame it all on his teammates when they don't. It's about the whole team performing or not, can't have it both way.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Deron Williams took a terrible backup PG situation and somehow made it worse. They've been **** ing awful with Deron Williams as their backup.

I don't really care about what you believe. It's factual, they've sucked without him. Their 2 "All-Stars" also never led a team anywhere until they played with LeBron.

Can't believe I have to defend LeBron being the best player in the game to you people.

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

I don't think LeBron wanted a worse-than-terrible backup PG.

I'm pretty sure Lebron hand picked Deron Williams to come to the Cavaliers. He literally runs the franchise.

There were plenty of other backup Point Guards, he could have gotten instead if Deron wasn't good enough.

[therealbig3]

Yeah I already heard Lebron cry about how nobody could run the offense and needed a play maker.

Then Griffin went out and got him the best backup Point Guard in the league.

Not exactly buying that excuse.

Hard for me to believe that the 2nd most talented roster in the NBA is just so terrible and awful. The problem then is either leadership or coaching.

Lebron is in charge of both.

Deron Williams took a terrible backup PG situation and somehow made it worse. They've been **** ing awful with Deron Williams as their backup.

I don't really care about what you believe. It's factual, they've sucked without him. Their 2 "All-Stars" also never led a team anywhere until they played with LeBron.

Can't believe I have to defend LeBron being the best player in the game to you people.

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

"They've sucked without him/they've played pretty badly with him over the past 3 months."

Also Kyrie Irving was like 20 when Lebron arrived, so it totally makes sense to say he never lead his team anywhere. His third best player put up 26/12. LOL

But that's not enough for Lebron. Lebron should not only have multiple all-stars on his team, these all-stars should also have lead their teams to the NBA Finals.

Next season I expect the Cavaliers to acquire Curry/Harden/Anthony Davis. Anything less would be insulting to the GOAT/King and would prove that he didn't have enough help.

Kyrie is the same player now that he was then. A score-first PG who has serious flaws running a team offense and playing defense. Love's 26/12 came on a lottery team. In fact, anything Love did before coming to Cleveland was on a lottery team, and he had been in the NBA for a while.

The rest of your post is pointless.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Deron Williams took a terrible backup PG situation and somehow made it worse. They've been **** ing awful with Deron Williams as their backup.

I don't really care about what you believe. It's factual, they've sucked without him. Their 2 "All-Stars" also never led a team anywhere until they played with LeBron.

Can't believe I have to defend LeBron being the best player in the game to you people.

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

"They've sucked without him/they've played pretty badly with him over the past 3 months."

Also Kyrie Irving was like 20 when Lebron arrived, so it totally makes sense to say he never lead his team anywhere. His third best player put up 26/12. LOL

But that's not enough for Lebron. Lebron should not only have multiple all-stars on his team, these all-stars should also have lead their teams to the NBA Finals.

Next season I expect the Cavaliers to acquire Curry/Harden/Anthony Davis. Anything less would be insulting to the GOAT/King and would prove that he didn't have enough help.

Kyrie is the same player now that he was then. A score-first PG who has serious flaws running a team offense and playing defense. Love's 26/12 came on a lottery team. In fact, anything Love did before coming to Cleveland was on a lottery team, and he had been in the NBA for a while.

The rest of your post is pointless.

If your argument is that Lebron can't win regular season games because Lebron doesn't have any all-star teammates that lead a team in the playoffs, then your argument is pretty trash.

Because the same can be said of James Harden, Curry (before Durant) or Kawhi.

None of their teams are under preforming.

[Young_Star11]

Will be interesting to see how the Thunder finish the season. None of their games are gimmies at this point. I just can't imagine Russ getting the MVP if they end up 46-36.

Depends if voters can see past the triple-double average.

[therealbig3]

I'm not talking about his Triple Doubles. Westbrook is shooting 42% from the field. That's below league average.

I expect good efficiency from the MVP of the league, not worse than most of the NBA.

FG%?

Ok, I'm done here. Anyone that still uses FG% to measure offensive efficiency just hasn't been paying attention, or is willfully ignorant. Either way, this is a waste of my time.

The percent you shoot from the field isn't the most important indicator of efficiency?

Are you sure you know how basketball works?

I know how basketball works just fine. I know that FTs matter, as do 3s.

Try TS%, or Orating.

Not to mention, whether or not if he shoots below league average, if he makes his team a lot better...who cares? Without Westbrook, the Thunder would be the worst team in the league.

[-Sammy-]

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

I don't think LeBron wanted a worse-than-terrible backup PG.

I'm pretty sure Lebron hand picked Deron Williams to come to the Cavaliers. He literally runs the franchise.

There were plenty of other backup Point Guards, he could have gotten instead if Deron wasn't good enough.

Please link to the data source(s) that led you to be 'pretty sure' LeBron hand-picked Williams. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it isn't an unfounded assumption on your part based on the equally-assumptive notion that he 'literally runs the franchise'.

[HotRocks34]

30/10/10 season average is clinched.

Still 1 triple-double game away from having the season record to himself.

[kingmalaki]

Wow, pretty sad watching Westbrook blatantly chase two assists at the 3-4 minute mark of the 4th, while his team was down 20+ points. Passing up shots just to pass, to the point that Phoenix started intentionally fouling everyone. He finally took himself out when the Suns started to just foul him. That's a mockery of the game.

Stat chasing at its worst. How can any of y'all defend that? That's how history is made?

[Hello Brooklyn]

I don't think LeBron wanted a worse-than-terrible backup PG.

I'm pretty sure Lebron hand picked Deron Williams to come to the Cavaliers. He literally runs the franchise.

There were plenty of other backup Point Guards, he could have gotten instead if Deron wasn't good enough.

Please link to the data that led you to be 'pretty sure' LeBron hand-picked Williams. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it isn't an unfounded assumption on your part based on the equally-assumptive notion that he 'literally runs the franchise'.

Lebron makes the decision for the Cavaliers. This was even cited as one of the main reasons he left Miami.

It's as clear as night and day.

If you can't see that, you're just not being honest with yourself.

[K_chile22]

I don't think it's necessarily fair, but I think Russ lost some respect from voters today, and a ton of them were watching

[therealbig3]

Yeah, so basically Lebron is getting everything he wanted and they're still not a great team. But that's the mark of the MVP?

"They've sucked without him/they've played pretty badly with him over the past 3 months."

Also Kyrie Irving was like 20 when Lebron arrived, so it totally makes sense to say he never lead his team anywhere. His third best player put up 26/12. LOL

But that's not enough for Lebron. Lebron should not only have multiple all-stars on his team, these all-stars should also have lead their teams to the NBA Finals.

Next season I expect the Cavaliers to acquire Curry/Harden/Anthony Davis. Anything less would be insulting to the GOAT/King and would prove that he didn't have enough help.

Kyrie is the same player now that he was then. A score-first PG who has serious flaws running a team offense and playing defense. Love's 26/12 came on a lottery team. In fact, anything Love did before coming to Cleveland was on a lottery team, and he had been in the NBA for a while.

The rest of your post is pointless.

If your argument is that Lebron can't win regular season games because Lebron doesn't have any all-star teammates that lead a team in the playoffs, then your argument is pretty trash.

Because the same can be said of James Harden, Curry (before Durant) or Kawhi.

None of their teams are under preforming.

James Harden and Kawhi Leonard have teams that can actually play well when they go to the bench. Curry before Durant had a team that could win a playoff series without him.

LeBron doesn't have that luxury. This is provable, check the on/off. Check their record when he rests. But you seem hell bent on blaming other players playing like crap on LeBron, even when he's not on the court when the majority of poor play happens. Because he has recognizable names on his team.

Cool.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Kyrie is the same player now that he was then. A score-first PG who has serious flaws running a team offense and playing defense. Love's 26/12 came on a lottery team. In fact, anything Love did before coming to Cleveland was on a lottery team, and he had been in the NBA for a while.

The rest of your post is pointless.

If your argument is that Lebron can't win regular season games because Lebron doesn't have any all-star teammates that lead a team in the playoffs, then your argument is pretty trash.

Because the same can be said of James Harden, Curry (before Durant) or Kawhi.

None of their teams are under preforming.

James Harden and Kawhi Leonard have teams that can actually play well when they go to the bench. Curry before Durant had a team that could win a playoff series without him.

LeBron doesn't have that luxury. This is provable, check the on/off. Check their record when he rests. But you seem hell bent on blaming other players playing like crap on LeBron, even when he's not on the court when the majority of poor play happens. Because he has recognizable names on his team.

Cool.

Lebron James team is FAR SUPERIOR to either Kawhi's or Harden's. It's not even close. I can't even fathom you making an argument other wise.

If they're under preforming then Lebron as the leader of the team should get them to improve. But he hasn't.

You seem hell bent on making every excuse in the book for Lebron and blaming everything on one of the most talented teams in the NBA.

If Lebron wanted to win the MVP, he should have won 60 games and got his team to preform up to par like they did last season. But he didn't.

So he doesn't get it. Not that hard to rationalize.