2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[bwgood77]

Wow, pretty sad watching Westbrook blatantly chase two assists at the 3-4 minute mark of the 4th, while his team was down 20+ points. Passing up shots just to pass, to the point that Phoenix started intentionally fouling everyone. He finally took himself out when the Suns started to just foul him. That's a mockery of the game.

Stat chasing at its worst. How can any of y'all defend that? That's how history is made?

Yup. I have no problem with it. They're down 20 points. It's a team game. Westbrook feeds them the ball. His teammates can't make the shots. That's not Westbrook's fault.

I went through the Derrick Rose vs. LeBron MVP race. The comments were much worse here on RealGM than Westbrook getting the triple doubles against Harden. A lot of you ignored Chicago's best record of 62-20 entirely and kept talking about Rose's inefficiency and why Rose's stats do not match up to LeBron. Yes, Rose's individual numbers were not close to LeBron's.

The story lines and praise from Hall of Famers, towards the end of the season, which have nothing to do with stats and win record, drive the MVP race, too. Rose got Michael Jordan's and NBA.com's praise. LeBron did not. I knew it was over.

Same goes for Westbrook. He got MJ's praise along with other Hall of Famers and coaches. Harden didn't get that. Westbrook is currently number one on NBA.com's MVP ladder.

Tonight's game against the Suns showed how crappy Westbrook's teammates are. They really do suck. Oladipo, Taj Gibson, McDermott, Roberson, and Steven Adams. Couldn't even make a clean jump shot for a Big Mac if they tried. Awful roster and Westbrook force fed them the ball to make shots.

I disagree with most of what you said, but I was specifically referring to the last 3-5 minutes. Westbrook was still in the game and they were down 20+. He wasn't trying to win the game. He was trying to get two more assists to hit a statistical benchmark. That's blatant stat chasing. It has nada to do with playing to win the game or be competitive. That's how he tried to break a record tonight....passing the ball around in a blowout trying to pad stats.

The crowd was cheering him on to do it. I don't think he cares that much, honestly. I mean, I think he cares, but more because everyone else does, not because he does. He wants to appease them to get it over with.

[Young_Star11]

Tonight's game against the Suns showed how crappy Westbrook's teammates are. They really do suck. Oladipo, Taj Gibson, McDermott, Roberson, and Steven Adams. Couldn't even make a clean jump shot for a Big Mac if they tried. Awful roster and Westbrook force fed them the ball to make shots.

You are spot on. Roberson was trash tonight. 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals. It was almost like he wasn't even on the court tonight.

Don't get me started on Gibson, Adams, Victor, and Doug. They were an awful 17/38. You can't win with supporting players shooting 45%.

Russ did all he could but sometimes going 6/25 just isn't enough to carry a team. Damn shame.

Hard for Roberson to do anything when he was inactive tonight.

[therealbig3]

Tonight's game against the Suns showed how crappy Westbrook's teammates are. They really do suck. Oladipo, Taj Gibson, McDermott, Roberson, and Steven Adams. Couldn't even make a clean jump shot for a Big Mac if they tried. Awful roster and Westbrook force fed them the ball to make shots.

You are spot on. Roberson was trash tonight. 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals. It was almost like he wasn't even on the court tonight.

Don't get me started on Gibson, Adams, Victor, and Doug. They were an awful 17/38. You can't win with supporting players shooting 45%.

Russ did all he could but sometimes going 6/25 just isn't enough to carry a team. Damn shame.

Hard for Roberson to do anything when he was inactive tonight.

Sarcasm.

[kingmalaki]

Yup. I have no problem with it. They're down 20 points. It's a team game. Westbrook feeds them the ball. His teammates can't make the shots. That's not Westbrook's fault.

I went through the Derrick Rose vs. LeBron MVP race. The comments were much worse here on RealGM than Westbrook getting the triple doubles against Harden. A lot of you ignored Chicago's best record of 62-20 entirely and kept talking about Rose's inefficiency and why Rose's stats do not match up to LeBron. Yes, Rose's individual numbers were not close to LeBron's.

The story lines and praise from Hall of Famers, towards the end of the season, which have nothing to do with stats and win record, drive the MVP race, too. Rose got Michael Jordan's and NBA.com's praise. LeBron did not. I knew it was over.

Same goes for Westbrook. He got MJ's praise along with other Hall of Famers and coaches. Harden didn't get that. Westbrook is currently number one on NBA.com's MVP ladder.

Tonight's game against the Suns showed how crappy Westbrook's teammates are. They really do suck. Oladipo, Taj Gibson, McDermott, Roberson, and Steven Adams. Couldn't even make a clean jump shot for a Big Mac if they tried. Awful roster and Westbrook force fed them the ball to make shots.

I disagree with most of what you said, but I was specifically referring to the last 3-5 minutes. Westbrook was still in the game and they were down 20+. He wasn't trying to win the game. He was trying to get two more assists to hit a statistical benchmark. That's blatant stat chasing. It has nada to do with playing to win the game or be competitive. That's how he tried to break a record tonight....passing the ball around in a blowout trying to pad stats.

The crowd was cheering him on to do it. I don't think he cares that much, honestly. I mean, I think he cares, but more because everyone else does, not because he does. He wants to appease them to get it over with.

The crowd was cheering for Lance Stephenson the other night too.

Whatever the reason, it was blatant stat chasing.

[-Sammy-]

You can't be an MVP player if your team underperforms though, that's kind of a huge point of being an MVP during the year I would think.

That's debatable in the sense that one player can only do so much to coax the best out of another. What if you worked all year for a promotion only to have your boss say, 'you aren't getting promoted because the guy who works next to you did a lousy job'; that wouldn't be fair.

Obviously, LBJ is the leader of the team, but that doesn't change the reality that someone can only do so much to make someone else better; otherwise, let's criticize Jordan for never turning Bill Wennington into Bill Russell.

They did it last year. They did it in the first half of this season.

That's the point-- they did it last year; they did it in the first half of the season; now they are not doing it.

LeBron =/= 'they'. LeBron's play isn't what's fallen off-- it's the play (and the coaching) of they. That's why they are who we're blaming. LeBron has a +18 on/off; he's giving them 26, 9 and 9 on 27 PER and 62% TS, leading the entire league in minutes-per-game. What else would you like him to do to help they?

We're talking about a team that has 3 all stars, one the best in the world, highest payroll in the league, current champions. When they won last year, everyone was praising Lebron for being an ATG AND for being so amazing that he elevates everyone's play. Now?

The 'oh, but he's an all-star' angle is weak. I mean, Jamal Magloire was an all-star. All-time chucker Antoine Walker made three all-star teams. Are they playing like all-stars? Are they playing like the league champs with the highest payroll? And if not, why would we blame the only guy who actually is playing like an all-star and a champion right now? Should I mention the +18 on/off again, or all the stats?

So which is it? These guys were better, even in the first half this season. They won the championship.

There's the 'they' again. Perhaps if 'they' all had +18 on/offs or 27 PERs, the team would look better. Dammit, LeBron.

Gets all the credit when things go well, but it's "different" when it goes bad.

Do you know why? Because when things were going well, LeBron was playing like LeBron. Right now, when things are going poorly, LeBron is playing like... LeBron. LeBron is what hasn't changed in the equation. He's the constant; it's everything else that's been the variable. Surely you can see why it makes little sense to attack the one positive that hasn't stopped being positive.

I don't get this. By this logic, you literally can never fault Lebron for anything. When they killed it at last year's final, was Lebron not responsible for his team getting it together? Kyrie crushing it, TT killing the Warriors in rebounds, and Swish making clutch shots?

Kyrie = 'they'
TT = 'they'
Smith = 'they'

So if LeBron and his team were killing it last year, and now LeBron is still killing it but his team isn't, we should blame... LeBron? That doesn't work.

People weren't praising LeBron for the play of Kyrie and TT and Smith last year; they were praising LeBron for the play of LeBron. If LeBron is still playing that way but his teammates aren't...

His team is underperforming with the quality level they have and should be doing better. They're not, therefore, he shouldn't be considered. I'm sure he could be a top 5 MVP or whatever arbitrary number you want to use, he's just not the top guy to vote for. He doesn't deserve it. No MVP winner before has had an underperforming team, and we're not all going to change our minds because people are big fans of Lebron.

Fine, then; you don't get your promotion, since the guy who works next to you should be performing better. That's the logic you're using, no matter how you try to spin it. At some point, a guy does all he can and you can't blame him for his teammates' failures to live up to their billing anymore. 26, 9, and 9 with 27 PER, 62% TS, and a +18 on/off, leading the league in minutes-- do you want him to literally work the other guys' arms and legs with strings like puppets, to get them to do what they're supposed to do, too? 'But they're all-stars'-- then they should play like it. It's not LeBron's fault if they don't.

[therealbig3]

Spoiler:

That's debatable in the sense that one player can only do so much to coax the best out of another. What if you worked all year for a promotion only to have your boss say, 'you aren't getting promoted because the guy who works next to you did a lousy job'; that wouldn't be fair.

Obviously, LBJ is the leader of the team, but that doesn't change the reality that someone can only do so much to make someone else better; otherwise, let's criticize Jordan for never turning Bill Wennington into Bill Russell.

They did it last year. They did it in the first half of this season.

That's the point-- they did it last year; they did it in the first half of the season; now they are not doing it.

LeBron =/= 'they'. LeBron's play isn't what's fallen off-- it's the play (and the coaching) of they. That's why they are who we're blaming. LeBron has a +18 on/off; he's giving them 26, 9 and 9 on 27 PER and 62% TS, leading the entire league in minutes-per-game. What else would you like him to do to help they?

We're talking about a team that has 3 all stars, one the best in the world, highest payroll in the league, current champions. When they won last year, everyone was praising Lebron for being an ATG AND for being so amazing that he elevates everyone's play. Now?

The 'oh, but he's an all-star' angle is weak. I mean, Jamal Magloire was an all-star. All-time chucker Antoine Walker made three all-star teams. Are they playing like all-stars? Are they playing like the league champs with the highest payroll? And if not, why would we blame the only guy who actually is playing like an all-star and a champion right now? Should I mention the +18 on/off again, or all the stats?

So which is it? These guys were better, even in the first half this season. They won the championship.

There's the 'they' again. Perhaps if 'they' all had +18 on/offs or 27 PERs, the team would look better. Dammit, LeBron.

Gets all the credit when things go well, but it's "different" when it goes bad.

Do you know why? Because when things were going well, LeBron was playing like LeBron. Right now, when things are going poorly, LeBron is playing like... LeBron. LeBron is what hasn't changed in the equation. He's the constant; it's everything else that's been the variable. Surely you can see why it makes little sense to attack the one positive that hasn't stopped being positive.

I don't get this. By this logic, you literally can never fault Lebron for anything. When they killed it at last year's final, was Lebron not responsible for his team getting it together? Kyrie crushing it, TT killing the Warriors in rebounds, and Swish making clutch shots?

Kyrie = 'they'
TT = 'they'
Smith = 'they'

So if LeBron and his team were killing it last year, and now LeBron is still killing it but his team isn't, we should blame... LeBron? That doesn't work.

People weren't praising LeBron for the play of Kyrie and TT and Smith last year; they were praising LeBron for the play of LeBron. If LeBron is still playing that way but his teammates aren't...

His team is underperforming with the quality level they have and should be doing better. They're not, therefore, he shouldn't be considered. I'm sure he could be a top 5 MVP or whatever arbitrary number you want to use, he's just not the top guy to vote for. He doesn't deserve it. No MVP winner before has had an underperforming team, and we're not all going to change our minds because people are big fans of Lebron.

Fine, then; you don't get your promotion, since the guy who works next to you should be performing better. That's the logic you're using, no matter how you try to spin it. At some point, a guy does all he can and you can't blame him for his teammates' failures to live up to their billing anymore. 26, 9, and 9 with 27 PER, 62% TS, and a +18 on/off, leading the league in minutes-- do you want him to literally work the other guys' arms and legs with strings like puppets, to get them to do what they're supposed to do, too? 'But they're all-stars'-- then they should play like it. It's not LeBron's fault if they don't.

[Fico92]

Praising him when things go well, because HE'S by far the most important reason that things are going well, is warranted.

Criticizing him when things go bad, even though HE'S by far the most important reason why they're not a complete dumpster fire this season, is not warranted.

It would make sense if the Cavs weren't playing all that much better even when he's on the court, or they played bad with or without him, but the fact that they're only bad without him on the court means that he's not the issue here. And the fact that they actually play REALLY well when he's on the court means that he's actually the main reason why they don't completely suck.

Put that all together, combined with the fact that he's still the best player in the world...and you have a legitimate MVP candidate.

And actually, the media has been talking about him being in the conversation this entire time, so I'm far from the only person that feels this way. In fact, acting like he has no business to be in the conversation is what's the minority opinion here.

So regular season MVP should be based on when he turns it on in the Playoffs? Could he average 5/5/5 in the regular season and 30/10/10 in Playoffs and deserve REGULAR SEASON MVP?

Bruh.....

Where did I say that?

When you said just because he's the best player in the world (which he is, in the playoffs), he deserves to be in the convo. So if he is still the best player in the world and putting up crappy stats because he's coasting, by your reasoning he should still be in the convo?

[RightToCensor]

Yup. I have no problem with it. They're down 20 points. It's a team game. Westbrook feeds them the ball. His teammates can't make the shots. That's not Westbrook's fault.

There is a negative stigma to assist hunting. Force feeding passes to teammates in spite of being open is what got Rondo some flack back in his later days in Boston. Westbrook is head and shoulders better than any of his teammates in terms of scoring the ball, so at that point of the game I'd expect an All-NBA player to do whatever it takes to cut the deficient (which means shooting open shots) rather than hunt for a triple double. That was Andray Blache-levels of foolery.

Same goes for Westbrook. He got MJ's praise along with other Hall of Famers and coaches. Harden didn't get that. Westbrook is currently number one on NBA.com's MVP ladder.

There were other factors that led to Lebron not winning the 2011 MVP award, such as his controversial summer of 2010. Durant would have been a more serious MVP candidate this season if it wasn't for the perception of him taking the easy road with the best team in the league. I don't believe the MJ comparison/MVP thing, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade would both have way more MVP awards than 1 between the two players. Westbrook has indeed gotten more praise by famed athletes, current veterans, and coaches. He's clearly the most electrifying player of all the MVP candidates, but just like with Bryant and Wade, there are team-based factors that swing MVP votes just as much. A question that was asked two months ago that has gone unasked now is "Can a player with wins in the mid-40s get crowned the league MVP over three other qualified candidates each with at least 10 more wins?"

Tonight's game against the Suns showed how crappy Westbrook's teammates are. They really do suck. Oladipo, Taj Gibson, McDermott, Roberson, and Steven Adams. Couldn't even make a clean jump shot for a Big Mac if they tried. Awful roster and Westbrook force fed them the ball to make shots.

I don't like when people belittle good NBA players to drive biased agendas. Gibson, Roberson, and Adams were all players you could rely on in a deep playoff setting, if they were indeed bad players then they wouldn't have been given that responsibility. Oladipo is a good NBA starter so I don't see how you can think he sucks, McDermott is not reliable in my opinion but people believe there's promise in him. When Westbrook is hunting for assists and he's making all of those players into shoot-first guys, that's going to be a recipe for horrendous basketball. Roberson, Gibson, and Adams aren't score-first players, so why should you depend on them to consistently do something that is out of their reach. Westbrook's forcing them to do things that are not in their skillet and is making them look bad while making himself look bad as well. He'll make it up with voters and fans the next game if he gets a natural triple-double, but another one of these games could really tarnish his momentum.

[therealbig3]

So regular season MVP should be based on when he turns it on in the Playoffs? Could he average 5/5/5 in the regular season and 30/10/10 in Playoffs and deserve REGULAR SEASON MVP?

Bruh.....

Where did I say that?

When you said just because he's the best player in the world (which he is, in the playoffs), he deserves to be in the convo. So if he is still the best player in the world and putting up crappy stats because he's coasting, by your reasoning he should still be in the convo?

I'm saying he's still the best based on what he's doing this RS. He's an elite scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender. He can essentially play any position you ask him, on both sides of the court. Nobody covers as many holes in a team as LeBron does. And he has the box score stats to support it...he has a 27 PER, which is basically tied with Harden and isn't that far behind Westbrook.

I'd then point to the +/- to show that the eye test and the box score stats are actually translating into impact for his team, moreso than anyone else in the league.

[primopastalove2]

The Cavs bench got outscored by like 50 to 10 and yet some people have the audacity of questioning LBJ as the best player in the game and putting the blame on him, such blasphemy.

[Hello Brooklyn]

James Harden and Kawhi Leonard have teams that can actually play well when they go to the bench. Curry before Durant had a team that could win a playoff series without him.

LeBron doesn't have that luxury. This is provable, check the on/off. Check their record when he rests. But you seem hell bent on blaming other players playing like crap on LeBron, even when he's not on the court when the majority of poor play happens. Because he has recognizable names on his team.

Cool.

Lebron James team is FAR SUPERIOR to either Kawhi's or Harden's. It's not even close. I can't even fathom you making an argument other wise.

If they're under preforming then Lebron as the leader of the team should get them to improve. But he hasn't.

You seem hell bent on making every excuse in the book for Lebron and blaming everything on one of the most talented teams in the NBA.

If Lebron wanted to win the MVP, he should have won 60 games and got his team to preform up to par like they did last season. But he didn't.

So he doesn't get it. Not that hard to rationalize.

So Kawhi and Harden are better leaders than LeBron?

LMAO. Kawhi doesn't even speak, the MVP and leader of the Spurs is Popovich. Harden doesn't even try to play any defense, that's the reason why they don't fall apart without him, because they play way better defense with him on the bench. He's not really setting an example with his leadership.

On/off:

LeBron: +17.5

Harden: +1.5
Kawhi: +2.0

Not to mention that the Spurs have won all but one game that Kawhi has sat out this year.

The difference isn't LeBron not being a good enough leader, it's that Kawhi and Harden have better team situations, whether you want to believe it or not. The actual evidence backs that up.

They have been this season. They are winning more games, with less talent, in a harder conference.

Its a regular season award.

We all know what Lebron does in the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

Westbrook shouldn't even be listed. 50 wins is mandatory for MVP.

It's fascinating to me that people have all of these rules for MVP that aren't written anywhere in stone and would, rightfully, seem completely arbitrary to outsiders.

The more rigidly we view what is required in order to be "MVP", the less value the award has.

Isn't the triple double stat arbitrary though? I mean you have to ask yourself is he'd still be in the MVP discussion if he was averaging 9 rebounds instead 10.

Quite true.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Hello Brooklyn]

Lebron James team is FAR SUPERIOR to either Kawhi's or Harden's. It's not even close. I can't even fathom you making an argument other wise.

If they're under preforming then Lebron as the leader of the team should get them to improve. But he hasn't.

You seem hell bent on making every excuse in the book for Lebron and blaming everything on one of the most talented teams in the NBA.

If Lebron wanted to win the MVP, he should have won 60 games and got his team to preform up to par like they did last season. But he didn't.

So he doesn't get it. Not that hard to rationalize.

Not to mention that the Spurs have won all but one game that Kawhi has sat out this year

I remember in high school when they taught us that context is important.

Remind me which teams were playoff teams at the time the Spurs beat them without Kawhi?

1. Raptors - missing 28ppg scorer
2. Warriors - missing top 4 players

That's it.

Nice try tho brah

Yeah pretty small and useless sample size.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Please link to the data that led you to be 'pretty sure' LeBron hand-picked Williams. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it isn't an unfounded assumption on your part based on the equally-assumptive notion that he 'literally runs the franchise'.

Lebron makes the decision for the Cavaliers. This was even cited as one of the main reasons he left Miami.

It's as clear as night and day.

If you can't see that, you're just not being honest with yourself.

Restating your initial assumption without providing any corroborative sources-- right on.

Does everything you believe have to based on peer reviewed sources all the time?

I didn't state it as a definitive fact. I said pretty sure, based on his behavior and based on the reporting I have heard about how the team operates.

IF you're looking for a **** dossier that states Lebron is the defacto GM of the Cavaliers, then you're just being naive.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?

The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"

Meanwhile, Harden is taking a team of nobodies to more wins in the West.

[therealbig3]

LeBron kills Harden in terms of RPM and on/off. When Harden and LeBron both go to the bench, the Rockets have played WAY better than the Cavs (the Rockets are like +6, while the Cavs are like -9). When Harden and LeBron are on the court, the Cavs outplay the Rockets (the Rockets are like +7, while the Cavs are like +9).

I don't see anything that shows Harden doing more for his team than LeBron this year, other than the fact that the Cavs have sexier names on their team, who aren't doing their part when LeBron is on the bench.

[therealbig3]

Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?

The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"

Meanwhile, Harden is taking a team of nobodies to more wins in the West.

When the numbers stop showing LeBron having MASSIVE impact, we'll stop saying he's carrying the team.

As it stands though...he's carrying the team.

[Fico92]

The Cavs bench got outscored by like 50 to 10 and yet some people have the audacity of questioning LBJ as the best player in the game and putting the blame on him, such blasphemy.

How does it taste?

[Fico92]

Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?

The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"

Meanwhile, Harden is taking a team of nobodies to more wins in the West.

LeBron will finish 4th in voting, deservedly so. Quote this brahs.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?

The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"

Meanwhile, Harden is taking a team of nobodies to more wins in the West.

When the numbers stop showing LeBron having MASSIVE impact, we'll stop saying he's carrying the team.

As it stands though...he's carrying the team.

Does massive impact equal 23-20 over the last 43 games?

But wait, its not Lebrons fault. He only has two other all-stars and one of the best benches in the league.

But that has nothing to o with Lebron, its just that every time his team starts losing the rest of teammates magically transform into a bunch of scrubs.

Has nothing to do with him! Look at what the advanced stats say!!!