2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
I'm sure if Lebron had other superstar players like Ryan Anderson and Patrick Beverly, he would be dominating the regular season. That's the real issue.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Last impression and narrative is the strongest one. Houston is not finishing well. Jh narrative is hushed.
Rw clinched TD average and probable will break record for most in the season.
I was picking jh but now i am moving rw over him.
For me its either best player on best team Curry/Kawhi or RW
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Rw clinched TD average and probable will break record for most in the season.
I was picking jh but now i am moving rw over him.
For me its either best player on best team Curry/Kawhi or RW
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Hello Brooklyn wrote:therealbig3 wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?
The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"
Meanwhile, Harden is taking a team of nobodies to more wins in the West.
When the numbers stop showing LeBron having MASSIVE impact, we'll stop saying he's carrying the team.
As it stands though...he's carrying the team.
Does massive impact equal 23-20 over the last 43 games?
But wait, its not Lebrons fault. He only has two other all-stars and one of the best benches in the league.
But that has nothing to o with Lebron, its just that every time his team starts losing the rest of teammates magically transform into a bunch of scrubs.
Has nothing to do with him! Look at what the advanced stats say!!!
There you go, now you're getting it.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
A strange thing is happening on the way to the MVP coronation. Curry has zero chance to win but he is still clearly the MVP according to the most important stat out there. The purpose of basketball is to win, not accumulate arbitrary box score stats. Curry destroys the other MVP candidates when it comes to winning.
If a player has only the best On/Off then you can argue that a player with a better Oncourt is leading their team more despite having a better bench. If a player has only the best Oncourt then you can argue that the better On/Off player is more important to their team. But if a player has the best Oncourt and On/Off then it gets really difficult to argue that they aren't the actual MVP.
Curry annihilates every non-Warrior in Oncourt. James is in the ballpark if you want to only look at On/Off. Westbrook, Harden and Leonard aren't even in the discussion no matter how you interpret things.
----------------On----Off----On/Off
Curry--------18.2---2.2-----20.4
James---------8.4---9.0----17.4
Westbrook--4.3----8.1----12.4
Harden-------7.2--+3.2-----4.0
Leonard-----9.0---+5.3-----3.7
Green-------16.1--+3.7----12.4
Durant------15.8--+7.1------8.7
Thompson-14.3--+6.0------8.3
But Curry is on a superteam and Westbrook has terrible teammates?
The numbers strongly refute this. If the Warriors really were a superteam then some other Warrior should have a similar On/Off to Curry. Curry has by far the best On/Off among the Warriors. A superteam would not collapse when one player doesn't play, which is what happens when Curry is not in the game.
If Westbrook's team is so terrible then he should at least be able to beat Curry in On/Off due to such weak teammates. The
reverse is true. Curry easily beats Westbrook.
But arbitrary box score numbers are so irrefutable!
Even by box score numbers Westbrook doesn't look nearly as good vs Curry when you look closer.
Curry is scoring at a dramatically more efficient rate. 62.3 vs 55.5. The higher PPG does not outweigh this huge efficiency
difference. Westbrook's rebounds are a complete joke, as pointed out by others. Westbrook has by far the highest usage rate ever. If Curry had the ball as much he would get a lot more assists also. Curry's Ast/TO and Ast/Usg- 2.2, .236. Westbrook's Ast/TO and Ast/Usg- 1.9, .259- pretty much a wash.
As a bonus, let's look at how Curry has done with a less super team-
Curry without Durant this year has an Oncourt rating of 14.2, which of course still destroys every other MVP candidate. It's
not a direct comparison, but last year Westbrook with Durant had a really good 13.1 rating. Still, Curry without Durant is
better than Westbrook with Durant. This is just getting embarrassing. But it gets worse. According to box score supremacists, PER is a great stat. But if you use PER then Green and Thompson are dramatically overrated. So if you believe in PER(and by extension box scores) you're now going to have to explain how Curry is dominating the rest of the league without any other stars to help him out.
But doesn't Westbrook having a historical season outweigh anything that Curry does?
Definitely not. Because by the stat that matters most Curry might actually be having the best season ever. Oncourt data goes back 20 years. From that we know that Curry's Oncourt rating is much better this year than Lebron, Duncan, Shaq and most likely Jordan ever had. There are only a couple other players in history that possibly could have been better than Curry this year and most likely they were not either.
The only two players in history we know about that match Curry's output this year are Curry and Green last year. But this year Green is not close, so it's possible that Curry has been more relatively valuable than last year when you adjust for teammates.
If a player has only the best On/Off then you can argue that a player with a better Oncourt is leading their team more despite having a better bench. If a player has only the best Oncourt then you can argue that the better On/Off player is more important to their team. But if a player has the best Oncourt and On/Off then it gets really difficult to argue that they aren't the actual MVP.
Curry annihilates every non-Warrior in Oncourt. James is in the ballpark if you want to only look at On/Off. Westbrook, Harden and Leonard aren't even in the discussion no matter how you interpret things.
----------------On----Off----On/Off
Curry--------18.2---2.2-----20.4
James---------8.4---9.0----17.4
Westbrook--4.3----8.1----12.4
Harden-------7.2--+3.2-----4.0
Leonard-----9.0---+5.3-----3.7
Green-------16.1--+3.7----12.4
Durant------15.8--+7.1------8.7
Thompson-14.3--+6.0------8.3
But Curry is on a superteam and Westbrook has terrible teammates?
The numbers strongly refute this. If the Warriors really were a superteam then some other Warrior should have a similar On/Off to Curry. Curry has by far the best On/Off among the Warriors. A superteam would not collapse when one player doesn't play, which is what happens when Curry is not in the game.
If Westbrook's team is so terrible then he should at least be able to beat Curry in On/Off due to such weak teammates. The
reverse is true. Curry easily beats Westbrook.
But arbitrary box score numbers are so irrefutable!
Even by box score numbers Westbrook doesn't look nearly as good vs Curry when you look closer.
Curry is scoring at a dramatically more efficient rate. 62.3 vs 55.5. The higher PPG does not outweigh this huge efficiency
difference. Westbrook's rebounds are a complete joke, as pointed out by others. Westbrook has by far the highest usage rate ever. If Curry had the ball as much he would get a lot more assists also. Curry's Ast/TO and Ast/Usg- 2.2, .236. Westbrook's Ast/TO and Ast/Usg- 1.9, .259- pretty much a wash.
As a bonus, let's look at how Curry has done with a less super team-
Curry without Durant this year has an Oncourt rating of 14.2, which of course still destroys every other MVP candidate. It's
not a direct comparison, but last year Westbrook with Durant had a really good 13.1 rating. Still, Curry without Durant is
better than Westbrook with Durant. This is just getting embarrassing. But it gets worse. According to box score supremacists, PER is a great stat. But if you use PER then Green and Thompson are dramatically overrated. So if you believe in PER(and by extension box scores) you're now going to have to explain how Curry is dominating the rest of the league without any other stars to help him out.
But doesn't Westbrook having a historical season outweigh anything that Curry does?
Definitely not. Because by the stat that matters most Curry might actually be having the best season ever. Oncourt data goes back 20 years. From that we know that Curry's Oncourt rating is much better this year than Lebron, Duncan, Shaq and most likely Jordan ever had. There are only a couple other players in history that possibly could have been better than Curry this year and most likely they were not either.
The only two players in history we know about that match Curry's output this year are Curry and Green last year. But this year Green is not close, so it's possible that Curry has been more relatively valuable than last year when you adjust for teammates.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
laika wrote:But Curry is on a superteam and Westbrook has terrible teammates?
The numbers strongly refute this. If the Warriors really were a superteam then some other Warrior should have a similar On/Off to Curry. Curry has by far the best On/Off among the Warriors. A superteam would not collapse when one player doesn't play, which is what happens when Curry is not in the game. If Westbrook's team is so terrible then he should at least be able to beat Curry in On/Off due to such weak teammates.
What a ridiculous thing to say. I don't care what weird stat you use, if it suggests that Curry doesn't play on one of the most loaded teams in history and that Westbrook's teammates are not terrible, it's just wrong. If it suggests the Warriors collapse more than the Thunder do when Curry/Westbrook come out, then it's flawed. The Thunder play THREE rookies in their second unit. Curry has Iggy, SLivingston, David West (two solid vets, 1 Finals MVP) To suggest otherwise is really just out of touch. Nice research though. This is not how MVP will be chosen.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
therealbig3 wrote:Impuniti wrote:BombsquadSammy wrote:
The way they've been playing, they'd be a bottom-five lottery team without LeBron, instead of a 51-win conference leader. That's a huge argument in favor of him as the MVP.
He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.
Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.
Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.
Over in Houston they began the year with a team that fell off a cliff when Harden went to the bench, but they use D'Antoni's system, so they eventually learned to get good at it too watching Harden & co kill with it.
Cleveland doesn't have a sophisticated scheme like because LeBron didn't want it. When he's out there things run through him, and when he goes to the bench they can't play the same way so they suffer.
None of this is to say I don't knock Love & Irving - I do, and they aren't anywhere near my All-NBA teams whereas LeBron is a lock for 1st team - but when you buy expensive talent and they underperform en masse, there's more going on there than just bad luck in my humble opinion.
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Hello Brooklyn wrote:I'm sure if Lebron had other superstar players like Ryan Anderson and Patrick Beverly, he would be dominating the regular season. That's the real issue.
Who wouldn't, honestly
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Doctor MJ wrote:therealbig3 wrote:Impuniti wrote:He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.
Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.
Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.
No, when they play with LeBron they are All-Stars. When LeBron is out and they are asked to carry the load they are horrific.
This year when LeBron has been out of the game the Cavs are -8.6 points/100 possessions. The Nets are -6.3pts/100 possessions for the season. This isn't even a small sample size. Its a full season.
fishnc wrote:If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and LeBron, I would shoot LeBron twice.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
HurricaneKid wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:therealbig3 wrote:
Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.
Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.
No, when they play with LeBron they are All-Stars. When LeBron is out and they are asked to carry the load they are horrific.
This year when LeBron has been out of the game the Cavs are -8.6 points/100 possessions. The Nets are -6.3pts/100 possessions for the season. This isn't even a small sample size. Its a full season.
Or maybe because Cavs are build to use LeBron's strength and not Kyrie's or Love's. Remove LeBron, give them a training camp to build own system and the are top 5 team in the East. Even Warriors needed 3-4 games when Durant injured his leg to switch to the old system. It's not like a video game to change your style when your best player is out for just a game or two.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Hello Brooklyn wrote:BombsquadSammy wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Lebron makes the decision for the Cavaliers. This was even cited as one of the main reasons he left Miami.
It's as clear as night and day.
If you can't see that, you're just not being honest with yourself.
Restating your initial assumption without providing any corroborative sources-- right on.
Does everything you believe have to based on peer reviewed sources all the time?
I didn't state it as a definitive fact. I said pretty sure, based on his behavior and based on the reporting I have heard about how the team operates.
IF you're looking for a **** dossier that states Lebron is the defacto GM of the Cavaliers, then you're just being naive.
You're missing the point. When you make the statement 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers', that is a statement of fact; there's an unstated expectation on your part that the rest of us should accept it as fact in the context of the discussion, and I'm saying no-- I'm not going to go along with your unfounded assumptions just because you want them to be true because that makes it easier for you to blame LeBron for everything that goes wrong with that team.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?
Somehow, Antoine Walker made three all-star teams. How did he do that? By playing like garbage?
When your answer to everything is 'oh, but they have two all-stars', I'm entitled to flip that faulty logic back on the argument. If they're not playing well, they're not playing well; what does the fact that they're all-stars have to do with it anyhow? 'Oh, Kyrie's an all-star; therefore, if he plays bad defense, it's LeBron's fault.' How in the world does that make any sense?
Hello Brooklyn wrote:The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"
The LeBron-haters will stop at nothing to blame him for everything; when someone else plays poorly, it's his fault.

Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
mihail_petkov wrote:HurricaneKid wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.
No, when they play with LeBron they are All-Stars. When LeBron is out and they are asked to carry the load they are horrific.
This year when LeBron has been out of the game the Cavs are -8.6 points/100 possessions. The Nets are -6.3pts/100 possessions for the season. This isn't even a small sample size. Its a full season.
Or maybe because Cavs are build to use LeBron's strength and not Kyrie's or Love's. Remove LeBron, give them a training camp to build own system and the are top 5 team in the East. Even Warriors needed 3-4 games when Durant injured his leg to switch to the old system. It's not like a video game to change your style when your best player is out for just a game or two.
WTF does this mean? It is pretty evident to me that the team is built on surrounding LeBron with shooters. If Kyrie were anything close to the player people suggest he should want the ball with shooters everywhere. Only when that is the team on the floor they get destroyed. They can run PnR with Ky/TT, they can run PNR with Ky and KLove. What they cannot seem to do is make any of that work. Which to me shows that they aren't the players people believe them to be. Which is largely what the advanced stats say.
fishnc wrote:If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and LeBron, I would shoot LeBron twice.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Doctor MJ wrote:therealbig3 wrote:Impuniti wrote:He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.
Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.
Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.
Over in Houston they began the year with a team that fell off a cliff when Harden went to the bench, but they use D'Antoni's system, so they eventually learned to get good at it too watching Harden & co kill with it.
Cleveland doesn't have a sophisticated scheme like because LeBron didn't want it. When he's out there things run through him, and when he goes to the bench they can't play the same way so they suffer.
None of this is to say I don't knock Love & Irving - I do, and they aren't anywhere near my All-NBA teams whereas LeBron is a lock for 1st team - but when you buy expensive talent and they underperform en masse, there's more going on there than just bad luck in my humble opinion.
I disagree with this assertion for the simple fact that when you don't have any other playmakers, then you need a sophisticated system in order to make things work. That's why it works in Houston, that's why it works in SA.
Kyrie and Love are both used to being the system, in which case, they shouldn't need a coach to implement a D'Antoni style offense that can make even role players flourish for extended periods of time without their best player. I mean, that's why they're All-Stars, no?
The fact that they can't even keep the Cavs from playing horrific basketball while LeBron goes to the bench is not on LeBron, because Kyrie and Love are supposedly stars that don't need a complicated system in order to play well.
To me, the fact that they can't means they are flawed players that are largely overrated. They are being asked to play the same way they've always played in the past, but they can't lead the team anywhere when they do. Which is kind of the story of their careers without LeBron.
I'm also really not understanding what LeBron is doing out there that makes it so restrictive of Kyrie and Love. Especially when he's on the bench and isn't even touching the ball.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
The problem with Cleveland is coaching, and that falls at Lebrons feet. Blatt was doing a wonderful job, but Lebron wanted a worse coach that he could get along with, and this is what he gets. Terrible defensive gameplan and a DIY offense
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
BombsquadSammy wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:BombsquadSammy wrote:
Restating your initial assumption without providing any corroborative sources-- right on.
Does everything you believe have to based on peer reviewed sources all the time?
I didn't state it as a definitive fact. I said pretty sure, based on his behavior and based on the reporting I have heard about how the team operates.
IF you're looking for a **** dossier that states Lebron is the defacto GM of the Cavaliers, then you're just being naive.
You're missing the point. When you make the statement 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers', that is a statement of fact; there's an unstated expectation on your part that the rest of us should accept it as fact in the context of the discussion, and I'm saying no-- I'm not going to go along with your unfounded assumptions just because you want them to be true because that makes it easier for you to blame LeBron for everything that goes wrong with that team.Hello Brooklyn wrote:Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?
Somehow, Antoine Walker made three all-star teams. How did he do that? By playing like garbage?
When your answer to everything is 'oh, but they have two all-stars', I'm entitled to flip that faulty logic back on the argument. If they're not playing well, they're not playing well; what does the fact that they're all-stars have to do with it anyhow? 'Oh, Kyrie's an all-star; therefore, if he plays bad defense, it's LeBron's fault.' How in the world does that make any sense?Hello Brooklyn wrote:The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"
The LeBron-haters will stop at nothing to blame him for everything; when someone else plays poorly, it's his fault.
Its not a statement of fact if I say "pretty sure." If you're acting like Deron Williams is not a satisfactory backup Point Guard in the NBA then you're just being delusional. Sorry.
I didn't say you have to "go along" with my assumptions. Go ahead and pretend like Lebron isn't the decision maker for the Cavaliers. As long as it suits your fan boy narrative.
Again, you want to pretend like its all about Kyrie and Love when the Cavaliers are under preforming.
If a team is playing badly and is talented, I put it on the leadership. If you can't get your team to maximize it's abilities, then you're not the MVP.
And I promise you the voters will agree with me. Lebron will not even be close to winning it, just like he hasn't for the last 3 years.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
mademan wrote:The problem with Cleveland is coaching, and that falls at Lebrons feet. Blatt was doing a wonderful job, but Lebron wanted a worse coach that he could get along with, and this is what he gets. Terrible defensive gameplan and a DIY offense
Exactly. Lebron wanted a coach that would be his puppet and do whatever he wanted.
He wanted to be the de facto coach.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
HurricaneKid wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:therealbig3 wrote:
Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.
Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.
No, when they play with LeBron they are All-Stars. When LeBron is out and they are asked to carry the load they are horrific.
This year when LeBron has been out of the game the Cavs are -8.6 points/100 possessions. The Nets are -6.3pts/100 possessions for the season. This isn't even a small sample size. Its a full season.
You don't understand what I'm saying.
I'm saying that the players in question are not able to play up to their potential because the team hasn't crafted effective strategies to reliably get them to way they reliably played before LeBron. I say "they", but at this point I should make clear that I had Kevin Love in mind specifically when I wrote that last part.
I really still think LeBron & Love have the talents to be complete dynamite together, and when they acquired Love I thought that meant LeBron had a specific thing in mind, but Love just plays a totally different role with different positioning on the court than what is ideal for him. You can blame him perhaps for not being able to be more dynamic adjusting his the players on the floor, but the fact remains that Love doesn't cease to be a star simply because a team decided to acquire him despite not being able to utilize him to his fullest.
People want to say that LeBron shouldn't get penalized as a player for bad fit, but HE is the one who rejected a more sophisticated scheme that would have (potentially) more seamless flow and hence effectively a better fit.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Hello Brooklyn wrote:BombsquadSammy wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Does everything you believe have to based on peer reviewed sources all the time?
I didn't state it as a definitive fact. I said pretty sure, based on his behavior and based on the reporting I have heard about how the team operates.
IF you're looking for a **** dossier that states Lebron is the defacto GM of the Cavaliers, then you're just being naive.
You're missing the point. When you make the statement 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers', that is a statement of fact; there's an unstated expectation on your part that the rest of us should accept it as fact in the context of the discussion, and I'm saying no-- I'm not going to go along with your unfounded assumptions just because you want them to be true because that makes it easier for you to blame LeBron for everything that goes wrong with that team.Hello Brooklyn wrote:Wow did you really just compare Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love to Jamal Magloire and Antoine Walker?
Somehow, Antoine Walker made three all-star teams. How did he do that? By playing like garbage?
When your answer to everything is 'oh, but they have two all-stars', I'm entitled to flip that faulty logic back on the argument. If they're not playing well, they're not playing well; what does the fact that they're all-stars have to do with it anyhow? 'Oh, Kyrie's an all-star; therefore, if he plays bad defense, it's LeBron's fault.' How in the world does that make any sense?Hello Brooklyn wrote:The Lebron apologists will stop at nothing, to absolve him of blame. He NEVER has enough "help,"
The LeBron-haters will stop at nothing to blame him for everything; when someone else plays poorly, it's his fault.
Its not a statement of fact if I say "pretty sure."
You wrote 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers. This was even cited as one of the main reasons he left Miami.' That's a direct quote. You didn't write 'I'm pretty sure LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers', and you didn't provide the citation you claim exists.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:If you're acting like Deron Williams is not a satisfactory backup Point Guard in the NBA then you're just being delusional. Sorry.
Have you seen him play at all in the last five years? If you this is still the Deron Williams of 2010, then you're delusional.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:I didn't say you have to "go along" with my assumptions.
No, you just insult people who don't by saying they're delusional and calling them fan-boys.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:As long as it suits your fan boy narrative.
Case in point. Not a fan-boy, dude; a fan-boy is someone who props his guy despite any and all evidence to the contrary. I've presented rational points and, most importantly, evidence that supports my position. Frankly, someone who would call me a fan-boy given my case is most likely the opposite of a fan-boy-- a hater.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:Again, you want to pretend like its all about Kyrie and Love when the Cavaliers are under preforming.
And you want to maintain that the guy putting up 26,9, and 9, with a 27 PER and a +18 on/off, leading the league in minutes, is the problem. I guess LeBron's just not 'leading enough', huh? He should just 'lead more.'
We'll let the other readers decide which one of us sounds sillier.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:And I promise you the voters will agree with me. Lebron will not even be close to winning it, just like he hasn't for the last 3 years.
Well, he's not going to win it, but he'll be top-five-- probably top-four, behind Harden, Russ, and Kawhi. I don't know what your criteria for being 'close' is, but he's already got four MVPs, so he doesn't have to prove he's MVP-caliber; the burden of proof is on you to prove he isn't.

Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
BombsquadSammy wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:BombsquadSammy wrote:
You're missing the point. When you make the statement 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers', that is a statement of fact; there's an unstated expectation on your part that the rest of us should accept it as fact in the context of the discussion, and I'm saying no-- I'm not going to go along with your unfounded assumptions just because you want them to be true because that makes it easier for you to blame LeBron for everything that goes wrong with that team.
Somehow, Antoine Walker made three all-star teams. How did he do that? By playing like garbage?
When your answer to everything is 'oh, but they have two all-stars', I'm entitled to flip that faulty logic back on the argument. If they're not playing well, they're not playing well; what does the fact that they're all-stars have to do with it anyhow? 'Oh, Kyrie's an all-star; therefore, if he plays bad defense, it's LeBron's fault.' How in the world does that make any sense?
The LeBron-haters will stop at nothing to blame him for everything; when someone else plays poorly, it's his fault.
Its not a statement of fact if I say "pretty sure."
You wrote 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers. This was even cited as one of the main reasons he left Miami.' That's a direct quote. You didn't write 'I'm pretty sure LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers', and you didn't provide the citation you claim exists.Hello Brooklyn wrote:If you're acting like Deron Williams is not a satisfactory backup Point Guard in the NBA then you're just being delusional. Sorry.
Have you seen him play at all in the last five years? If you this is still the Deron Williams of 2010, then you're delusional.Hello Brooklyn wrote:I didn't say you have to "go along" with my assumptions.
No, you just insult people who don't by saying they're delusional and calling them fan-boys.Hello Brooklyn wrote:As long as it suits your fan boy narrative.
Case in point. Not a fan-boy, dude; a fan-boy is someone who props his guy despite any and all evidence to the contrary. I've presented rational points and, most importantly, evidence that supports my position. Frankly, someone who would call me a fan-boy given my case is most likely the opposite of a fan-boy-- a hater.Hello Brooklyn wrote:Again, you want to pretend like its all about Kyrie and Love when the Cavaliers are under preforming.
And you want to maintain that the guy putting up 26,9, and 9, with a 27 PER and a +18 on/off, leading the league in minutes, is the problem. I guess LeBron's just not 'leading enough', huh? He should just 'lead more.'
We'll let the other readers decide which one of us sounds sillier.Hello Brooklyn wrote:And I promise you the voters will agree with me. Lebron will not even be close to winning it, just like he hasn't for the last 3 years.
Well, he's not going to win it, but he'll be top-five-- probably top-four, behind Harden, Russ, and Kawhi. I'm not sure what your criteria for being 'close' is, but he's already got four MVPs, so he doesn't have to prove he's MVP-caliber; you're the one who has to prove he isn't.
For the 10,000 time I said "I'm pretty sure." That doesn't mean it's a statement of fact.
Yeah I'm a Nets fan, I haven't seen Deron Williams play.
He averaged 10/5 this year and started for the Mavs. But somehow he's a terrible backup Point Guard. That is completely delusional. You don't even believe that.
Yeah it totally sounds silly to expect the Most Valuable Player to prove his value by showing leadership and getting his team to play better. What a crazy thing to expect?
Get your eyes off of the stat sheet for 5 seconds and watch at how terribly the Cavaliers have been playing for the past 3 months. It'll do you some good.
Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Hello Brooklyn wrote:For the 10,000 time I said "I'm pretty sure." That doesn't mean it's a statement of fact.
You typed 'LeBron makes the decision for the Cavaliers. This was even cited as one of the main reasons he left Miami.' That's a direct quote.
For the 10,000th time.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:Yeah I'm a Nets fan, I haven't seen Deron Williams play.
He averaged 10/5 this year and started for the Mavs. But somehow he's a terrible backup Point Guard. That is completely delusional. You don't even believe that.
Have you watched him play with the Cavs? What do his Brooklyn days or even his Dallas days have to do with anything? He's been terrible for the Cavs. I guess LeBron isn't leading him well enough; LeBron should just start leading him some more. That'll fix everything.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:Yeah it totally sounds silly to expect the Most Valuable Player to prove his value by showing leadership and getting his team to play better. What a crazy thing to expect?
Totally. Their defense is awful because LeBron just isn't leading enough. Deron looks like a stiff because LeBron isn't leading hard the way he ought to. Lue's rotations suck because LeBron is only leading 85% of the amount he should be leading. He just needs to get his 'leading' stats up.
Hello Brooklyn wrote:Get your eyes off of the stat sheet for 5 seconds and watch at how terribly the Cavaliers have been playing for the past 3 months. It'll do you some good.
Canvas the league-- the analysts and journalists and scouts; find someone knowledgable who will corroborate your position that LeBron is the reason the Cavs aren't winning. All you'll find are people who agree that he's the only reason they're leading their conference instead of bottoming it out.

Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)
Literally like arguing with a brick wall.
I'm done bruh.
Can't wait to be vindicated when Lebron doesn't even finish in the top 3.
I'm done bruh.
Can't wait to be vindicated when Lebron doesn't even finish in the top 3.