2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[Rastas]

In the history of the award, no one has won it on a team that didn't finish in the top 4 record wise. The Thunder have the 9th best record in the league.

That's okay. GOATbrook making history for so many things this year

Then there was this other guy who had a 50pt 25reb season with the no2 seed and he never won it ........so!

[harrybobarry]

Harden today drops 35 points/15 assists/11 rebounds - triple double in a relatively easy win against the Kings with multiple role players resting (Nene, Ariza, Gordon). Just because his opposition hits a clutch shot to win doesn't mean it's better, a W is a W. Harden's Rockets up to 54 wins and 24 losses. Currently up +13 in wins from last season with 2 more to play.

Come on man. That's an MVP signature moment if I've ever seen one. Encapsulates his whole season. 50-16-10, breaks the triple double record, 13 points in a little over 2 minutes to bring his team back from being down 10... Denver was cheering and that shot knocked their team out the playoffs. Come on man.

See this is sort of falling for the hype. Great season accomplishment of breaking the triple double record, in the end this will be the decisive factor in his winning the MVP or not, however for this game, being clutch to win the game shouldn't factor into him being a stronger MVP candidate. Facts say, both MVP candidates posted wins, both posted triple doubles with Harden's 35 point, 15 assists, 11 rebound nothing to sneeze at. Just asking that Harden's day also needs to be discussed compared to the amount of talk in Russell's favor.

At the end of the day both candidates are doing amazing things for the their teams. I just feel it is unfairly in Russell's favor since he has more flash, where Harden has more substance. It will be interesting to see what wins out, in the end.

[wonkrazyz28]

Damn, cant argue with that anymore. Its over.

Its crazy see how Harden has lost 2 MVP's in his career so far. In the 30 years I have been watching basketball, I just cant wrap my head around it.

[ckman]

Read on Twitter

Lol what a desperate post using some random tweet from some random guy.
This is straight up not true at all, Westbrook 0.553 ts% is about the same as last year 0.554% and of course OKC is not a better team than last year, they lost some guy who name is Durant remember? This year OKC efg% drop from 0.511 to 0.481 with Westbrook off. Their offensive rating drop from 111.5 to 101.0 when he's off. At least do some research yourself before you post.

[RightToCensor]

People need to stop with the "stat padding" nonsense and give this guy the credit he deserves. His stats are better than Harden, and if Harden fans point to team record, than they should be throwing their hats in Kawhi's court. There are several good picks, and if Kawhi (my personal choice) doesn't win, I'm totally on board with Westbrook because he lifted this team up after KD left and turned them into a strong 6th seed.

Westbrook has been getting credit for what he's done. The accusations of "stat padding" weren't serious until the game where he clinched the triple double average against Phoenix where he was clearly doing his best Andray Blache impersonation in trying to force a triple double in an ugly fashion. That sequence went unnoticed by the media, which is why RealGM was more vocal about it than them. Both Westbrook and Harden are having historic seasons that haven't been replicated since Oscar. so give both guys credit on their eye-popping production.

The people that are really paying close attention to the MVP race haven't counted out Kawhi, either. He's in there with Westbrook and Harden, what he's lacking compared to the two are godly stats but he makes up for it in wins. Harden is balancing godly stats (again, which we've never seen since Oscar) with wins. Harden is sporting the third best record in the league averaging 29/11/8 without an All-Star teammate, that can't get swept under the rug in any MVP race. Harden is deserving to be on everyone's first place ballot unless you have a personal agenda against him or a personal narrative that doesn't work in his favor. Will he win MVP? I don't know, the momentum is in favor of Westbrook, but I also don't know the voting criteria for all the selected media members that'll vote for all the awards. If you're counting out any of Westbrook, Harden, or Kawhi (or even Lebron) at this point of time then you clearly have an agenda or narrative and shouldn't be complaining about other people with agendas or narratives.

[E-Balla]

Harden today drops 35 points/15 assists/11 rebounds - triple double in a relatively easy win against the Kings with multiple role players resting (Nene, Ariza, Gordon). Just because his opposition hits a clutch shot to win doesn't mean it's better, a W is a W. Harden's Rockets up to 54 wins and 24 losses. Currently up +13 in wins from last season with 2 more to play.

Come on man. That's an MVP signature moment if I've ever seen one. Encapsulates his whole season. 50-16-10, breaks the triple double record, 13 points in a little over 2 minutes to bring his team back from being down 10... Denver was cheering and that shot knocked their team out the playoffs. Come on man.

See this is sort of falling for the hype. Great season accomplishment of breaking the triple double record, in the end this will be the decisive factor in his winning the MVP or not, however for this game, being clutch to win the game shouldn't factor into him being a stronger MVP candidate. Facts say, both MVP candidates posted wins, both posted triple doubles with Harden's 35 point, 15 assists, 11 rebound nothing to sneeze at. Just asking that Harden's day also needs to be discussed compared to the amount of talk in Russell's favor.

At the end of the day both candidates are doing amazing things for the their teams. I just feel it is unfairly in Russell's favor since he has more flash, where Harden has more substance. It will be interesting to see what wins out, in the end.

More substance? There's a significant argument that Russ has more substance. I mean look at today for example. Harden had a great game with 35/11/15. Russ had a better and flashier game with 50/16/10. Its absurd to try to say triple doubles got Russ the MVP. What got him the MVP was being the best player in basketball.

[RightToCensor]

PSA to Rockets and Thunder fans: Don't go at each other's throats over this MVP race. The people causing most of the commotion are of other fanbases with clear hatred for either of our star players.

[Basileus777]

If you're counting out any of Westbrook, Harden, or Kawhi (or even Lebron) at this point of time then you clearly have an agenda or narrative and shouldn't be complaining about other people with agendas or narratives.

It's clearly a two person race at this point. The Cavs struggles have undercut LeBron's chances, and Kawhi was never going to win it over the crazy statistical seasons Harden and Westbrook are having.

[Hello Brooklyn]

There is no way James Harden can get it after the media's obsession with Westbrook.

But Harden still had the better season. A near triple double with more wins, is better than a triple double with less wins. At least in my book.

[ckman]

People need to stop with the "stat padding" nonsense and give this guy the credit he deserves. His stats are better than Harden, and if Harden fans point to team record, than they should be throwing their hats in Kawhi's court. There are several good picks, and if Kawhi (my personal choice) doesn't win, I'm totally on board with Westbrook because he lifted this team up after KD left and turned them into a strong 6th seed.

Westbrook has been getting credit for what he's done. The accusations of "stat padding" weren't serious until the game where he clinched the triple double average against Phoenix where he was clearly doing his best Andray Blache impersonation in trying to force a triple double in an ugly fashion. That sequence went unnoticed by the media, which is why RealGM was more vocal about it than them. Both Westbrook and Harden are having historic seasons that haven't been replicated since Oscar. so give both guys credit on their eye-popping production.

The people that are really paying close attention to the MVP race haven't counted out Kawhi, either. He's in there with Westbrook and Harden, what he's lacking compared to the two are godly stats but he makes up for it in wins. Harden is balancing godly stats (again, which we've never seen since Oscar) with wins. Harden is sporting the third best record in the league averaging 29/11/8 without an All-Star teammate, that can't get swept under the rug in any MVP race. Harden is deserving to be on everyone's first place ballot unless you have a personal agenda against him or a personal narrative that doesn't work in his favor. Will he win MVP? I don't know, the momentum is in favor of Westbrook, but I also don't know the voting criteria for all the selected media members that'll vote for all the awards. If you're counting out any of Westbrook, Harden, or Kawhi (or even Lebron) at this point of time then you clearly have an agenda or narrative and shouldn't be complaining about other people with agendas or narratives.

Both Harden and Westbrook performance clearly good enough to win the MVP. Westbrook momentum to end the season and hitting the milestone of averaging triple double and breaking triple double season record probably push him over Harden.
There's no need to put down one to prop up another. Hence that's why so many argument started.
One things is wrong in your post though, the accusation and discrediting started earlier than the Phoenix game. It started when Westbrook starting to overtake Harden as the favorite of MVP race 2-3 weeks ago. Instead of praising Harden great performance,some Harden fans who felt insecure decided to create thread after thread and posted in every game thread about how overrated triple double, how Westbrook stole uncontested rebounds from teammates etc.
That's when i felt irk and leaning towards rooting Westbrook to win the award.

[RightToCensor]

If you're counting out any of Westbrook, Harden, or Kawhi (or even Lebron) at this point of time then you clearly have an agenda or narrative and shouldn't be complaining about other people with agendas or narratives.

It's clearly a two person race at this point. The Cavs struggles have undercut LeBron's chances, and Kawhi was never going to win it over the crazy statistical seasons Harden and Westbrook are having.

There's an argument to be made for Kawhi's candidacy. His 26 PPG average with All-Defensive 1st-Team efforts on a 61-62 win team won't go unnoticed with voters when the season is over. If you're already counting him out before you even reflect on the season then you're clearly being irresponsible at your job as a basketball analyst. Succumbing to the pressure of Twitter fans and media-narratives is doing an injustice to what is an amazing MVP race.

For good reason, I'm hesitant to keep Lebron as a candidate. The losing his team has done since David Griffin "upgraded" the team with his midseason trades can't go unnoticed either. The #1 argument I see when people make a case for Lebron as MVP is that he'll be the best player in June, so it'd be stupid to not give him the MVP award. You can't hand out an MVP award when you're having an underwhelming season compared to expectations. You're projected production in May and June shouldn't matter when discussing a regular season award. Lebron does have on-off stats to make a real MVP case, that I can get behind and understand but other than that I would need a lot more convincing to choose him over someone like Harden or Leonard.

[Basileus777]

If you're counting out any of Westbrook, Harden, or Kawhi (or even Lebron) at this point of time then you clearly have an agenda or narrative and shouldn't be complaining about other people with agendas or narratives.

It's clearly a two person race at this point. The Cavs struggles have undercut LeBron's chances, and Kawhi was never going to win it over the crazy statistical seasons Harden and Westbrook are having.

There's an argument to be made for Kawhi's candidacy. His 26 PPG average with All-Defensive 1st-Team efforts on a 61-62 win team won't go unnoticed with voters when the season is over. If you're already counting him out before you even reflect on the season then you're clearly being irresponsible at your job as a basketball analyst. Succumbing to the pressure of Twitter fans and media-narratives is doing an injustice to what is an amazing MVP race.

For good reason, I'm hesitant to keep Lebron as a candidate. The losing his team has done since David Griffin "upgraded" the team with his midseason trades can't go unnoticed either. The #1 argument I see when people make a case for Lebron as MVP is that he'll be the best player in June, so it'd be stupid to not give him the MVP award. You can't hand out an MVP award when you're having an underwhelming season compared to expectations. You're projected production in May and June shouldn't matter when discussing a regular season award. Lebron does have on-off stats to make a real MVP case, that I can get behind and understand but other than that I would need a lot more convincing to choose him over someone like Harden or Leonard.

I was talking about how the voters would vote, Kawhi isn't a serious candidate to win. But if we want to play that card, Curry probably has a better case than him anyway.

[ocelot17]

PSA to Rockets and Thunder fans: Don't go at each other's throats over this MVP race. The people causing most of the commotion are of other fanbases with clear hatred for either of our star players.

I don't think anyone hates Westbrook. They're hating on the media for putting too much stress on a trivial stat that ultimately means nothing.

[TinmanZBoy]

since it is too hard to decide between Goatbrook and Harden, lets give it to Kawhi

[Dadouv47]

Actually, the unfair thing for Harden is that is team is good enough that he doesn't need to try (and didn't have many opportunities) to make clutch plays like Westbrook did all season long (and came back from huge deficit alone). On the other hand, we don't know if Harden would be anywhere near decisive and clutch as Westbrook was.

In the end, Westbrook is the second player to average a triple double for a season, something NO ONE think would be possible to do in the modern NBA, he made the most triple doubles in a regular season EVER, he's the clutchest player in the NBA right now (with some luck obviously), he made his crappy team relevant and bounced back after cupcake departure (which is far from easy), and he's the most entertaining player in the league (which shouldn't be a reason to get votes).
And yeah, Harden makes his teammates and his team way better, but the winning ratio when WB averages a triple double is also impressive.
With all that said, it's pretty hard not giving Westbrook the award. A month ago I think Harden was ahead because of team winnings, but Westbrook had maybe the best month of his career, with so many impressive comebacks and winnings shots (while his team is worse than ever).

[Fico92]

Harden today drops 35 points/15 assists/11 rebounds - triple double in a relatively easy win against the Kings with multiple role players resting (Nene, Ariza, Gordon). Just because his opposition hits a clutch shot to win doesn't mean it's better, a W is a W. Harden's Rockets up to 54 wins and 24 losses. Currently up +13 in wins from last season with 2 more to play.

Come on man. That's an MVP signature moment if I've ever seen one. Encapsulates his whole season. 50-16-10, breaks the triple double record, 13 points in a little over 2 minutes to bring his team back from being down 10... Denver was cheering and that shot knocked their team out the playoffs. Come on man.

See this is sort of falling for the hype. Great season accomplishment of breaking the triple double record, in the end this will be the decisive factor in his winning the MVP or not, however for this game, being clutch to win the game shouldn't factor into him being a stronger MVP candidate. Facts say, both MVP candidates posted wins, both posted triple doubles with Harden's 35 point, 15 assists, 11 rebound nothing to sneeze at. Just asking that Harden's day also needs to be discussed compared to the amount of talk in Russell's favor.

At the end of the day both candidates are doing amazing things for the their teams. I just feel it is unfairly in Russell's favor since he has more flash, where Harden has more substance. It will be interesting to see what wins out, in the end.

Lol dude cmon...literally a few weeks ago Rocket fans were saying Harden being the only player ever to have two games of 50+ triple doubles....now it's not a big deal that it's a 50+ point triple double and can just be compared to a 35/15/11?

.....

I didn't want WB to win it myself, but after the last 3 weeks...how can you give it to anyone else?

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

[Basileus777]

PSA to Rockets and Thunder fans: Don't go at each other's throats over this MVP race. The people causing most of the commotion are of other fanbases with clear hatred for either of our star players.

I don't think anyone hates Westbrook. They're hating on the media for putting too much stress on a trivial stat that ultimately means nothing.

It means a 23-9 record, not nothing. Even if you want to argue that the stat is arbitrary, it correlates with winning and Russ doing it at a modern NBA pace is still extraordinary.

[PaulieWal]

PSA to Rockets and Thunder fans: Don't go at each other's throats over this MVP race. The people causing most of the commotion are of other fanbases with clear hatred for either of our star players.

I don't think anyone hates Westbrook. They're hating on the media for putting too much stress on a trivial stat that ultimately means nothing.

The triple double is just the cherry on the top but Russ has been a better player than Harden this year. It's not just because of "OMG hurr durr triple double".

[ocelot17]

PSA to Rockets and Thunder fans: Don't go at each other's throats over this MVP race. The people causing most of the commotion are of other fanbases with clear hatred for either of our star players.

I don't think anyone hates Westbrook. They're hating on the media for putting too much stress on a trivial stat that ultimately means nothing.

The triple double is just the cherry on the top but Russ has been a better player than Harden this year. It's not just because of "OMG hurr durr triple double".

The triple double is the ONLY thing everyone is talking about.

If Westbrook wasn't averaging a TD, would he even be in the MVP discussion? No.

[The Box Office]

Harden today drops 35 points/15 assists/11 rebounds - triple double in a relatively easy win against the Kings with multiple role players resting (Nene, Ariza, Gordon). Just because his opposition hits a clutch shot to win doesn't mean it's better, a W is a W. Harden's Rockets up to 54 wins and 24 losses. Currently up +13 in wins from last season with 2 more to play.

Come on man. That's an MVP signature moment if I've ever seen one. Encapsulates his whole season. 50-16-10, breaks the triple double record, 13 points in a little over 2 minutes to bring his team back from being down 10... Denver was cheering and that shot knocked their team out the playoffs. Come on man.

See this is sort of falling for the hype. Great season accomplishment of breaking the triple double record, in the end this will be the decisive factor in his winning the MVP or not, however for this game, being clutch to win the game shouldn't factor into him being a stronger MVP candidate. Facts say, both MVP candidates posted wins, both posted triple doubles with Harden's 35 point, 15 assists, 11 rebound nothing to sneeze at. Just asking that Harden's day also needs to be discussed compared to the amount of talk in Russell's favor.

At the end of the day both candidates are doing amazing things for the their teams. I just feel it is unfairly in Russell's favor since he has more flash, where Harden has more substance. It will be interesting to see what wins out, in the end.

No. You're wrong.



All substance. All flash.