2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

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Historic.

[Patches Perry]

Harden endorses Kawhi Leonard for MVP:

"I think that's the most important thing. I thought winning is what this is about -- period," Harden said after recording his 21st triple-double of the season in the Rockets' win over the Sacramento Kings on Sunday. "I'm not going to get in-depth with all that, but I thought winning was the most important thing. If you set your team up in a position to have a chance, at the ultimate goal, that's the most important thing."

[harrybobarry]

Come on man. That's an MVP signature moment if I've ever seen one. Encapsulates his whole season. 50-16-10, breaks the triple double record, 13 points in a little over 2 minutes to bring his team back from being down 10... Denver was cheering and that shot knocked their team out the playoffs. Come on man.

See this is sort of falling for the hype. Great season accomplishment of breaking the triple double record, in the end this will be the decisive factor in his winning the MVP or not, however for this game, being clutch to win the game shouldn't factor into him being a stronger MVP candidate. Facts say, both MVP candidates posted wins, both posted triple doubles with Harden's 35 point, 15 assists, 11 rebound nothing to sneeze at. Just asking that Harden's day also needs to be discussed compared to the amount of talk in Russell's favor.

At the end of the day both candidates are doing amazing things for the their teams. I just feel it is unfairly in Russell's favor since he has more flash, where Harden has more substance. It will be interesting to see what wins out, in the end.

Lol dude cmon...literally a few weeks ago Rocket fans were saying Harden being the only player ever to have two games of 50+ triple doubles....now it's not a big deal that it's a 50+ point triple double and can just be compared to a 35/15/11?

.....

I didn't want WB to win it myself, but after the last 3 weeks...how can you give it to anyone else?

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

How can you give it to anyone else? Because the MVP is for the duration of the entire season, this is what I mean but buying into the hype. Harden has been leading the race all season long but Russell has a strong month so now he has propelled forward? One strong month of play should not take precedence over an entire season worth. You said it yourself you were swayed by 3 weeks of play. To me, 6 months > 3 weeks of play.

Kawhi is a strong candidate in my mind, but the idea that the Spurs have gone 7-1 in his absence, leads me to believe Harden has the slight edge, in my opinion, but thats a whole nother arguement.

Regarding stats, last season Harden posted elite stats 29 ppg, 7 apg, and 6 rpg leading Rockets to the 8th seed at 41-41 and left off the all-nba squad. This season Russell sitting at the 6th seed with the Thunder winning less than 50 games, yet will be favored to win MVP. Why? Because he's flashy, he gets the triple doubles, and he gets the clutch stats on his side. But ultimately he's not winning as much as a traditional MVP winner. Russell has superior stats but only slightly edging Harden who is close behind, whereas Harden's team has the 3rd best record in the NBA, both as the sole all star on the squad. Harden has my vote for the 2016-2017 regular season, but Westbrook has my vote for the 2017 Month-April, but seeing how that award doesn't exist, I got Harden to be the winner.

[michaelm]

It is Westbrook's now and in no way undeserved, especially with all the clutch late game winners.

I would still prefer to build a team with this year's (not so much the Harden from previous years) Harden myself than Westbrook though.

It is tough for him and his fans if he is denied on the basis of another player's better statistics when he was previously denied with superior statistics because of the superiority of the record of another player's team. I am biased, but that other team back then did have a quite unpredicted dominant season, significantly better than Houston's this year, and did thoroughly smash Houston in the regular season. Still hard to argue against him having a gripe if he is denied the MVP award in 2 different seasons for polar opposite reasons, with reasonable grounds for arguing that either one or the other denial was unfair.

[ChartFiction]

It is Westbrook's now and in no way undeserved, especially with all the clutch late game winners.

I would still prefer to build a team with this year's (not so much the Harden from previous years) Harden myself than Westbrook though.

It is tough for him and his fans if he is denied on the basis of another player's better statistics when he was previously denied with superior statistics because of the superiority of the record of another player's team. I am biased, but that other team back then did have a quite unpredicted dominant season, significantly better than Houston's this year, and did thoroughly smash Houston in the regular season. Still hard to argue against him having a gripe if he is denied the MVP award in 2 different seasons for polar opposite reasons, with reasonable grounds for arguing that either one or the other denial was unfair.

But did he really have superior statistics though?

[ken6199]

Whether Harden wins it or not, he transformed himself as a player from someone who struggles with a 41-41 record with Dwight, shaqtin' fool winner, Youtube superstar, to a worthy MVP winner orchestrating the league #2 offense, bringing his team to a 3rd best record in the league without another all star sidekick. It was really unfortunate for him both in 14-15 and 16-17 where he had legit case for MVP and only lost to another two historical performances from Curry and WB. Not as flashier as Westbrook this season, Harden still have many historical moments and stats going into the history book. I am happy for both of them.

The race is pretty much over though. Recency bias, media love, the KD story setting up the background, all that, it doesn't matter anymore. Westbrook deserves all the favor he gets for the performance he put up over the last 2-3 weeks. Plus what the guy has done this season, might not ever be done again for a long long time.

Anyone who can hang on to the final moment of one of the most fascinating MVP races in history, that guys is already a winner himself.

Harden endorses Kawhi Leonard for MVP:

"I think that's the most important thing. I thought winning is what this is about -- period," Harden said after recording his 21st triple-double of the season in the Rockets' win over the Sacramento Kings on Sunday. "I'm not going to get in-depth with all that, but I thought winning was the most important thing. If you set your team up in a position to have a chance, at the ultimate goal, that's the most important thing."

Harden probably meant winning is more important when you have godly stats. Both he and WB have godly stats, Kawhi doesn't.

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

Same problem with this comment. This is very misleading. It's a combination of winning + stats. Curry and Kawhi have winning but not stats, Harden and WB have stats, and Harden has a few more wins. That's why it makes this race so fascinating.

[Patches Perry]

Harden probably meant winning is more important when you have godly stats. Both he and WB have godly stats, Kawhi doesn't.

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

Same problem with this comment. This is very misleading. It's a combination of winning + stats. Curry and Kawhi have winning but not stats, Harden and WB have stats, and Harden has a few more wins. That's why it makes this race so fascinating.

Why does Westbrook not have enough wins compared to Harden but Harden has enough wins compared to Leonard? What is the number of wins required and why that number?

Why does Leonard not have good enough stats compared to Harden but Harden has good enough stats compared to Westbrook? What stats are required and why that number?

The argument for Harden creates an imaginary threshold of wins required so that it can exclude Westbrook, but then turns around and creates an imaginary statline required so that it can exclude Leonard. It's moving the goalposts pretty wildly.

They all play on winning teams and have great stats. This is why I said weeks ago that Harden is destined for 2nd in this race, because his team success is overshadowed by Leonard and individual success overshadowed by Westbrook. He's going to dominate the 2nd place votes.

[ken6199]

PSA to Rockets and Thunder fans: Don't go at each other's throats over this MVP race. The people causing most of the commotion are of other fanbases with clear hatred for either of our star players.

I don't think anyone hates Westbrook. They're hating on the media for putting too much stress on a trivial stat that ultimately means nothing.

Honestly, it means a lot.
- If Harden averaged triple double in 14-15, he would've beaten Curry. He would've owned Curry in MVP race together with that #2 seed.
- If Harden averaged triple double in 16-17, he would've beaten Westbrook soundly with a 55W-ish record.
- If Westbrook didn't average triple double in 16-17, he would've lost to Harden in mid-season already.

It's a huge swinging factor.

[ken6199]

Harden probably meant winning is more important when you have godly stats. Both he and WB have godly stats, Kawhi doesn't.

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

Same problem with this comment. This is very misleading. It's a combination of winning + stats. Curry and Kawhi have winning but not stats, Harden and WB have stats, and Harden has a few more wins. That's why it makes this race so fascinating.

Why does Westbrook not have enough wins compared to Harden but Harden has enough wins compared to Leonard? What is the number of wins required and why that number?

Why does Leonard not have good enough stats compared to Harden but Harden has good enough stats compared to Westbrook? What stats are required and why that number?

The argument for Harden creates an imaginary threshold of wins required so that it can exclude Westbrook, but then turns around and creates an imaginary statline required so that it can exclude Leonard. It's moving the goalposts pretty wildly.

They all play on winning teams and have great stats. This is why I said weeks ago that Harden is destined for 2nd in this race, because his team success is overshadowed by Leonard and individual success overshadowed by Westbrook. He's going to dominate the 2nd place votes.

All your questions are invalid when it comes to MVP race. This is a subjective award, there is no threshold, nor was I trying to create one.

I base my opinion on my own subjective views, such as godly stats = something only very few (or even one) have achieved in NBA history. You can say that about Harden and WB, not Kawhi.

I agree with your last paragraph - Harden will likely get large amount of 2nd place votes, but so will WB. It's a just product of 2 horse race.

[Edrees]

Harden probably meant winning is more important when you have godly stats. Both he and WB have godly stats, Kawhi doesn't.

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

Same problem with this comment. This is very misleading. It's a combination of winning + stats. Curry and Kawhi have winning but not stats, Harden and WB have stats, and Harden has a few more wins. That's why it makes this race so fascinating.

Why does Westbrook not have enough wins compared to Harden but Harden has enough wins compared to Leonard? What is the number of wins required and why that number?

Why does Leonard not have good enough stats compared to Harden but Harden has good enough stats compared to Westbrook? What stats are required and why that number?

The argument for Harden creates an imaginary threshold of wins required so that it can exclude Westbrook, but then turns around and creates an imaginary statline required so that it can exclude Leonard. It's moving the goalposts pretty wildly.

They all play on winning teams and have great stats. This is why I said weeks ago that Harden is destined for 2nd in this race, because his team success is overshadowed by Leonard and individual success overshadowed by Westbrook. He's going to dominate the 2nd place votes.

Don't forget Durant and Curry, if winning is "all" that matters then they should be the only ones in the discussion

[HotRocks34]

So here's the data on the "Points Scored + Points Assisted In A Season" (PSPA) Record. The data for Harden and Westbrook are approximate but are close to the real figures, if not exact.

Tiny Archibald holds the record with 4,539 in the 1972-73 season. Wilt was second all-time at 4,413 in the 1961-62 season, but both Harden and Westbrook have passed Wilt.

Here's the approximate standings after Game 80 for Harden and Westbrook.



Archibald -------> 4539 in 1972-73
Harden ---------> 4453 with 2 games left (086 PSPA away from tying the record)
Westbrook -----> 4420 with 2 games left (119 PSPA away from tying the record; 33 behind Harden)
Wilt -------------> 4413 in 1961-62



Harden is currently on pace to break Archibald's record, Westbrook is not. But Westbrook would seem to still have a chance to break Archibald's mark if he has two more big games.


As I have said in other places, I don't think you will ever see another season like Westbrook's again in the history of the league. These are some of the parameters that are already in place or which may be in place shortly:

30/10/10+ at sub-100 pace -------------> Locked in except for pace
30+ PER ------------------------------------> Almost locked in
Top-3 PSPA ---------------------------------> Locked in

If Westbrook were to get the sub-100 pace (should happen), 30+ PER (highly likely) and also the PSPA record (unlikely) then I think you are probably looking at the greatest offensive season in the history of the sport.

Even if Westbrook does not get the PSPA record, I still think that there will be a strong argument for this as the GOAT offensive season in the history of the sport.

What is being done by Westbrook is insane, and I don't think anyone will ever duplicate it as long as the NBA exists.

[ChartFiction]

Almost any other year Harden would win, but not this year.

Durant leaving OKC and Westbrook putting up this season performance took the MVP away from him, coincidentally, his two former teammates.

[michaelm]

It is Westbrook's now and in no way undeserved, especially with all the clutch late game winners.

I would still prefer to build a team with this year's (not so much the Harden from previous years) Harden myself than Westbrook though.

It is tough for him and his fans if he is denied on the basis of another player's better statistics when he was previously denied with superior statistics because of the superiority of the record of another player's team. I am biased, but that other team back then did have a quite unpredicted dominant season, significantly better than Houston's this year, and did thoroughly smash Houston in the regular season. Still hard to argue against him having a gripe if he is denied the MVP award in 2 different seasons for polar opposite reasons, with reasonable grounds for arguing that either one or the other denial was unfair.

But did he really have superior statistics though?

Not an argument I care to re-visit in this context as a GSW/Curry fan, but trying to look at things without that perspective he had good statistics and at least a ppg advantage and it was widely argued GSW's superior record was what clinched it for Curry.

[neno]

James Harden is averaging 29.3/ 8.1 /11.3
Will this be the best statistical season without an M.V.P ?

[EmperorLocky]

Oscar in 62 with a triple double was behind Wilt and Russell (MVP) in the MVP voting.

[zimpy27]

93-94 Robinson

29.8 pts, 10.7 rebs, 4.8 asts, 1.7 stls, 3.3 blks

Top 15 all time in both PER (30.4) and WS/48 (.296) for a single season.

[Bolivar]

We had this thread last week Wilt had 50.0 PPG and 25.7 RPG without MVP.

[baldur]

kobe bryant 2005-2006 is a must to mention. not only his crazy ppg, which was 35,4, he also played 41 mpg in 80 games totally. Nobody got ever close to that scoring figure in the last two decades. he led the team to the 7th seed in the west and nearly eliminated suns in the first round. Was a phenomenal season by kobe.

[Young_Star11]

kobe bryant 2005-2006 is a must to mention. not only his crazy ppg, which was 35,4, he also played 41 mpg in 80 games totally. Nobody got ever close to that scoring figure in the last two decades. he led the team to the 7th seed in the west and nearly eliminated suns in the first round. Was a phenomenal season by kobe.

Had a far better individual season than Nash who won MVP. Nash's team won 9 more games.

[Black Jack]

kobe bryant 2005-2006 is a must to mention. not only his crazy ppg, which was 35,4, he also played 41 mpg in 80 games totally. Nobody got ever close to that scoring figure in the last two decades. he led the team to the 7th seed in the west and nearly eliminated suns in the first round. Was a phenomenal season by kobe.

Had a far better individual season than Nash who won MVP. Nash's team won 9 more games.

That first MVP was real iffy for Nash. Real iffy.