2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[RaptorsLife]

Steph curry. Remarkable what he did without Durant

[Froob]

I'm going with Thomas, may be slightly blinded by homerism though. Offense is pretty bad without him on the court.

[The_Hater]

Curry's end of season run without Durant is deserving IMO.

Some people may also vote for Giannis btw.

[RaptorRed]

Steve Nash, we now know was helped tremendously by MDA's PG-friendly system and an amazing supporting cast with guys like Matrix, Amare, Diaw, Barbosa, Joe Johnson, etc.

Was Steve Nash ever an MVP candidate pre-MDA? Never.

Look at how much of a complainer he became under Terry Porter, who had a different offense than Mike D. Nash openly disagreed with it and Porter was fired just 3 months into his first season with the Suns.

Nash missed the playoffs 3 of his last 4 years in Phoenix when Amare either missed a lot of time (2009) and then left as a free-agent; this is before Nash became totally washed-up in Los Angeles.

Look at all the point guards who have thrived under MDA without a supporting cast like Nash had; Felton, Lin, Harden, and heck, even Kendall Marshall played pretty well for Mike D.

The Mavericks were in the Finals just TWO years after Nash left for nothing.

All this talk that Nash "made" STAT, Matrix, JJ, Diaw, etc. is just a slap in the face to those guys.

- Amare was the MVP front-runner with Felton as his PG before the Melo trade.

- Diaw was outstanding for the Spurs WITHOUT Nash.

- Joe Johnson became a franchise player on a perennial playoff team WITHOUT Nash

- Marion was an All-Star without Nash in 2003 and won a title without him in 2011.

Shaq got robbed in 2005 and Dirk/Kobe were robbed in 2006. The ONLY year Nash deserved it was 2007.

But for him to have more MVP's than Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Wade, Dirk, etc. is just unbelievable. He was just in the right place at the right time.

MDA deserves the majority of the credit for those MVP's, but the media just wanted to credit Nash for everything because it was the feel-good story and because Nash is such a nice guy.

2005 Shaq was a monster in the regular season before his late-season thigh bruise severely limited him in the playoffs.

23/10/3/2/ on 60 % shooting, 27 PER, 59 win team, less talent in his starting line-up than Nash had. Shaq deserved it that year.

2006; Kobe and Dirk were better than Nash; Kobe only had one good player other than him in Odom and Dirk put up ridiculous numbers that year, led his team to the Finals, and had a better record than Nash.

Steve Nash being a 2 time MVP is just wrong.

Lol this Nash hate is hilarious , they didn't even make the playoffs the year before he got there and they sign him and all of a sudden they are a 60 win team and a contender , but somehow it was all mike dantoni? lol . And what happened when Amare was out the entire year ? They went right back to the conefrence finals , i guess that was all dantoni too right ? And nice job trying to hype up all his teammates , did you even watch him play ? he made everyone around him 10 times better.

[KirkHinrich12]

Anthony Davis led the league in PER in 2014-15 with 30.89 rating

At the time only Wilt, Jordan and LeBron had a season with a higher PER. Steph did last year.

[mudsak]

I'm going with Thomas, may be slightly blinded by homerism though. Offense is pretty bad without him on the court.

He deserves the nod of being in the conversation. There's no denying what he's accomplished this season, and what he's done to carry the Celtics. He has his faults, as does the team, but both IT, and Boston have exceeded expectations while also giving Boston a real shot at making a run this year. Credit where it's due. I'd argue that #5 goes to IT.

[RaptorRed]

That first MVP was real iffy for Nash. Real iffy.

Why so iffy? He was just as much the engine of that team as harden and wb. They just fell apart whenever he wasn't on the floor.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

A few weeks ago I took an advanced stats look at MVPs in the years they kept track of the numbers required for Value Over Replacement, Box +/- and Win Shares.

Looking at the Steve Nash MVP seasons in particular, we see:

2006 - Steve Nash - VORP=4.0, BPM=3.7, WS=12.4
2005 - Steve Nash - VORP=2.4, BPM=1.7, WS=10.9

To put things in context, these are some of the worst numbers that have ever made MVP going all the way back to Kareem-Abdul Jabbar in 1974 (the earliest year basketball reference has stats for). Not only did Nash not lead the league in any of these three stats (frequently the MVP leads in at least one if not all three), he didn't even lead his team in any of the three. Even more than that, he wasn't even second on his team in any of these stats in his first MVP season. Here are the numbers for Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire over those two years

Shawn Marion
2006 - VORP=5.9, BPM=5.3, WS=14.6
2005 - VORP=5.5, BPM=4.9, WS=12.5

Amare Stoudamire
2006 - Played only 3 games, stats are meaningless with such a small sample size
2005 - VORP=3.9, BPM=3.4, WS=14.6

In addition, Marion played far more minutes than Nash in both 2005 and 2006, in fact he didn't miss a single regular season game in either of those years. So there's a strong case to be made that Nash was the third best player on his team in 2005 and the second best player in 2006. Yet he won MVPs in both of those seasons.

You seriously believe Marion was a better player thats just insane , nothing else you said can be taken seriously if you believe that. Did you watch him play at any point after the suns ? He could barely dribble the ball / had zero ability to create his own shot and looked completely lost without steve nash . It wasn't until he went to dallas where he became somewhat useful as a defender/cutter.

[ropjhk]

DeRozan made a late season push with Lowry injured. Wall deserves an honarable mention as well. My choice however goes to Isaiah Thomas, who is almost as valuable to the Celtics as Iverson was to Philly in 2001.

[jmnvcavs]

5th? Who gives a ****

[Black Jack]

Why so iffy? He was just as much the engine of that team as harden and wb. They just fell apart whenever he wasn't on the floor.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

A few weeks ago I took an advanced stats look at MVPs in the years they kept track of the numbers required for Value Over Replacement, Box +/- and Win Shares.

Looking at the Steve Nash MVP seasons in particular, we see:

2006 - Steve Nash - VORP=4.0, BPM=3.7, WS=12.4
2005 - Steve Nash - VORP=2.4, BPM=1.7, WS=10.9

To put things in context, these are some of the worst numbers that have ever made MVP going all the way back to Kareem-Abdul Jabbar in 1974 (the earliest year basketball reference has stats for). Not only did Nash not lead the league in any of these three stats (frequently the MVP leads in at least one if not all three), he didn't even lead his team in any of the three. Even more than that, he wasn't even second on his team in any of these stats in his first MVP season. Here are the numbers for Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudamire over those two years

Shawn Marion
2006 - VORP=5.9, BPM=5.3, WS=14.6
2005 - VORP=5.5, BPM=4.9, WS=12.5

Amare Stoudamire
2006 - Played only 3 games, stats are meaningless with such a small sample size
2005 - VORP=3.9, BPM=3.4, WS=14.6

In addition, Marion played far more minutes than Nash in both 2005 and 2006, in fact he didn't miss a single regular season game in either of those years. So there's a strong case to be made that Nash was the third best player on his team in 2005 and the second best player in 2006. Yet he won MVPs in both of those seasons.

You seriously believe Marion was a better player thats just insane , nothing else you said can be taken seriously if you believe that. Did you watch him play at any point after the suns ? He could barely dribble the ball / had zero ability to create his own shot and looked completely lost without steve nash . It wasn't until he went to dallas where he became somewhat useful as a defender/cutter.

Nah but he did have more win shares than Nash in 2005-06 tho

[bigben998]

It's amazing how the narrative shifted in Westbrook's favor within what feels like a couple of days. Now it looks like Harden has no chance, whatsoever. I'm not saying Westbrook doesn't deserve it - although I think Harden would deserve it more - it's just the fact that the narrative got so strong so suddenly, and you cannot put it all on a couple of really strong outings from Westbrook. Anyway, it doesn't matter now, he clearly deserves it, it's not like he is going to be a Rose-esque choice that made very little sense in 2011.

Yeah. Harden has not been as flashy recently and he sat a game out with his bad wrist. The narrative is def in Westbrooks favor. Even when the Rockets beat the Thunder, the media was saying that Westbrook won the battle. Media doesnt even care if Westbrook wins or loses as long as he is putting up his numbers. They both have been amazing this season though. Gotta give it to Harden though sitting at the number 3 spot. If Westbrook was in 3rd, it would be his no question. Either way, fun season to watch.

[Egg Nog]

LeBron didn't win it after what was probably his best season, the year Durant won.

13 was his best season, not 14

Reviewing the raw stats, it seems like you're right. I seem to also remember that being the year he had one of the most insane months ever, but that was actually (February) 2013.

[The_Hater]

James Harden is averaging 29.3/ 8.1 /11.3
Will this be the best statistical season without an M.V.P ?

Jordan and Shaq had a lot of great years without winning the MVP.

[giberish]

Giannis or Curry. Butler/Gobert/Wall after that.

[Mylie10]

Ignore James Johnson in this picture...I'm going Thomas for 5th

[RCM88x]

Kawhi

[ryanpuge]

2010 for Wade...

you probably mean 08-09 Wade, leading an utter trash trash Heat team to the playoffs with a 43-39 record

Raw:
79 gp
38.6 mpg
30.2 ppg
5.0 rpg
7.5 apg
2.2 spg
1.3 bpg
49.1 FG% - 31.7 3PTFG% - 76.5 FT%

Advanced Stats:
30.4 PER
57.4 TS%
36.2 USG%
14.7 WS
0.232 WS/48
9.7 VORP

just so happened LeBron had as good of a season with a better team record, but Wade was so awesome that year

that's right... it was after the olympics...

[Doctor MJ]

According to RealGM

#1. Westbrook
#2. Harden
#3. Kawhi
#4. Lebron
#5. ??

I said Curry but he's higher than 4th on the list.

Honestly it's hard for me to even consider anyone else in the top 5. To me there's a tier difference.

[SkyHook]

Giannis or Curry. Butler/Gobert/Wall after that.

Yes to the above. Not Thomas. Unless they want to rename the award OPOY. Worst defender in the league.

[ShazamDaShiznt]

well since its most valuable, not the best, player award then give me thomas. Even though curry is better for most of the season he played with KD and others. Thomas is the only legit go to guy for boston