2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[ciueli]

You seriously believe Marion was a better player thats just insane , nothing else you said can be taken seriously if you believe that. Did you watch him play at any point after the suns ? He could barely dribble the ball / had zero ability to create his own shot and looked completely lost without steve nash . It wasn't until he went to dallas where he became somewhat useful as a defender/cutter.

Using that logic guys like Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan should be on minimum contracts. There's more to basketball than just point guard skills, Nash was a poor defender (DBPM -2.9 in 2005, -1.6 in 2006, DWS 1.2 in 2005 and 2.1 in 2006) so he needed top-tier defensive guys like Marion to compensate for his deficiencies.

The point I'm making is that Nash was only one of a number of good players on his team when he won MVP, and possibly not even the one most directly responsible for wins. I'm of the school of thought that it makes more sense to reward a great player on a mediocre or bad team with the MVP award than it does to reward a good player on a great team. This is generally against the conventional wisdom of MVP voters who tend to vote for the latter over the former, or in some cases just vote for the player who is most popular (i.e. Nash in 2005 and 2006, Rose in 2011 as another example).

[beach house]

wes unselds rookie season

[RaptorRed]

You seriously believe Marion was a better player thats just insane , nothing else you said can be taken seriously if you believe that. Did you watch him play at any point after the suns ? He could barely dribble the ball / had zero ability to create his own shot and looked completely lost without steve nash . It wasn't until he went to dallas where he became somewhat useful as a defender/cutter.

Using that logic guys like Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan should be on minimum contracts. There's more to basketball than just point guard skills, Nash was a poor defender (DBPM -2.9 in 2005, -1.6 in 2006, DWS 1.2 in 2005 and 2.1 in 2006) so he needed top-tier defensive guys like Marion to compensate for his deficiencies.

The point I'm making is that Nash was only one of a number of good players on his team when he won MVP, and possibly not even the one most directly responsible for wins. I'm of the school of thought that it makes more sense to reward a great player on a mediocre or bad team with the MVP award than it does to reward a good player on a great team. This is generally against the conventional wisdom of MVP voters who tend to vote for the latter over the former, or in some cases just vote for the player who is most popular (i.e. Nash in 2005 and 2006, Rose in 2011 as another example).

Doubting he should have won the MVP is one thing but doubting he was the Suns MVP is just absurd and you keep going with that argument .. seriously stop posting advanced stats and just think logically. What was the suns record before nash ? Werren't marion and amare on the team the previous year ? And how did the suns do the year amare didn't play ? they made it to the same spot the were the year before , and this was WITHOUT joe johnson and without Amare , to doubt that Nash was the Suns MVP is really crazy , you must have some agenda against him or you did not watch that team play at all

[Starboy]

It's amazing how the narrative shifted in Westbrook's favor within what feels like a couple of days. Now it looks like Harden has no chance, whatsoever. I'm not saying Westbrook doesn't deserve it - although I think Harden would deserve it more - it's just the fact that the narrative got so strong so suddenly, and you cannot put it all on a couple of really strong outings from Westbrook. Anyway, it doesn't matter now, he clearly deserves it, it's not like he is going to be a Rose-esque choice that made very little sense in 2011.

Yeah. Harden has not been as flashy recently and he sat a game out with his bad wrist. The narrative is def in Westbrooks favor. Even when the Rockets beat the Thunder, the media was saying that Westbrook won the battle. Media doesnt even care if Westbrook wins or loses as long as he is putting up his numbers. They both have been amazing this season though. Gotta give it to Harden though sitting at the number 3 spot. If Westbrook was in 3rd, it would be his no question. Either way, fun season to watch.

That okc vs rockets game basically showed me that Harden wasn't winning the MVP. Harden played much better and ran his team to the perfection. Then Rus came in and got his stats in 4th quarter vs the bench for no reason. More articles were about his triple double that day even though anybody who watched the game knew what was up.

[ken6199]

It's amazing how the narrative shifted in Westbrook's favor within what feels like a couple of days. Now it looks like Harden has no chance, whatsoever. I'm not saying Westbrook doesn't deserve it - although I think Harden would deserve it more - it's just the fact that the narrative got so strong so suddenly, and you cannot put it all on a couple of really strong outings from Westbrook. Anyway, it doesn't matter now, he clearly deserves it, it's not like he is going to be a Rose-esque choice that made very little sense in 2011.

Yeah. Harden has not been as flashy recently and he sat a game out with his bad wrist. The narrative is def in Westbrooks favor. Even when the Rockets beat the Thunder, the media was saying that Westbrook won the battle. Media doesnt even care if Westbrook wins or loses as long as he is putting up his numbers. They both have been amazing this season though. Gotta give it to Harden though sitting at the number 3 spot. If Westbrook was in 3rd, it would be his no question. Either way, fun season to watch.

That okc vs rockets game basically showed me that Harden wasn't winning the MVP. Harden played much better and ran his team to the perfection. Then Rus came in and got his stats in 4th quarter vs the bench for no reason. More articles were about his triple double that day even though anybody who watched the game knew what was up.

Yes, that was a spoiler preview of what was going to happen the next 2-3 weeks where RB gained huge momentum.

When the race was so close with both players doing historical things, you need the big moments, RECENT big moments to tip the scale. RB had his nights in Dallas and that season defining moment in Denver, Harden lost 3 times in a week to Curry and Leonard, though with a problematic wrist. You can't blame nobody.

[Andre Roberstan]

Morey's Twitter is filled with intolerably smarmy subtweets right now.

I'd be fine with Harden winning but if Morey keeps tweeting I might vote for the Cupcake over him.

[ciueli]

Doubting he should have won the MVP is one thing but doubting he was the Suns MVP is just absurd and you keep going with that argument .. seriously stop posting advanced stats and just think logically. What was the suns record before nash ? Werren't marion and amare on the team the previous year ? And how did the suns do the year amare didn't play ? they made it to the same spot the were the year before , and this was WITHOUT joe johnson and without Amare , to doubt that Nash was the Suns MVP is really crazy , you must have some agenda against him or you did not watch that team play at all

They lost Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire in 2006 but they still had decent role players that they brought in, including Boris Draw (who won MIP that year), Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas. Again, Marion was key in keeping the team decent, though they won 8 fewer games than the previous season.

The problem with Steve Nash is he's the type of player who only works well if he's on the right team, a team that plays to his strengths and papers over his weaknesses. The mid 2000s Suns were that team, totally designed to play in a way that would maximize what he could bring to the table. The evidence of this is what happened after the Suns moved Shawn Marion for Shaq and the Suns didn't even make the playoffs because they were no longer playing the style of basketball that made Nash successful.

More proof of this can be seen by looking at what happened after Nash left Dallas. In 2003/04 they won 52 games but lost in the first round of the playoffs. Once Nash was gone they won 58, 60 and 67 games the next three seasons. The Mavs understood Nash's limitations and knew they would need to become a better defensive team to win a title, something that couldn't happen with Dirk and Nash on the floor at the same time.

[RaptorRed]

Doubting he should have won the MVP is one thing but doubting he was the Suns MVP is just absurd and you keep going with that argument .. seriously stop posting advanced stats and just think logically. What was the suns record before nash ? Werren't marion and amare on the team the previous year ? And how did the suns do the year amare didn't play ? they made it to the same spot the were the year before , and this was WITHOUT joe johnson and without Amare , to doubt that Nash was the Suns MVP is really crazy , you must have some agenda against him or you did not watch that team play at all

They lost Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire in 2006 but they still had decent role players that they brought in, including Boris Draw (who won MIP that year), Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas. Again, Marion was key in keeping the team decent, though they won 8 fewer games than the previous season.

The problem with Steve Nash is he's the type of player who only works well if he's on the right team, a team that plays to his strengths and papers over his weaknesses. The mid 2000s Suns were that team, totally designed to play in a way that would maximize what he could bring to the table. The evidence of this is what happened after the Suns moved Shawn Marion for Shaq and the Suns didn't even make the playoffs because they were no longer playing the style of basketball that made Nash successful.

More proof of this can be seen by looking at what happened after Nash left Dallas. In 2003/04 they won 52 games but lost in the first round of the playoffs. Once Nash was gone they won 58, 60 and 67 games the next three seasons. The Mavs understood Nash's limitations and knew they would need to become a better defensive team to win a title, something that couldn't happen with Dirk and Nash on the floor at the same time.

I love how you talk about Nash after the Marion trade and before he joined the suns but don't mention how bad Marion was on the Heat and Raptors , but it's Nash that's the system player not Marion ? That's ridiculous , Nash made Marion better , he made Diaw better , you even mentioned he won MIP but somehow that doesn't correlate to him playing with Steve Nash ? And all that stuff about the Mavs not wanting Nash is bull , Nash improved his game on the Suns and Cuban stated he wishes Nash played at that MVP level when he was with the Mavs.

You clearly hate steve nash if you think Marion is the better player and Nash is the system player lol , any team in the league would have loved to have Suns Prime Nash and to deny this is just plain bias

[Patches Perry]

The MVP has always been determined by wins and individual stats.

Kawhi Leonard has the wins.

Westbrook has the stats.

Harden has the wins and the stats.

They all have both wins and stats.

[ciueli]

I love how you talk about Nash after the Marion trade and before he joined the suns but don't mention how bad Marion was on the Heat and Raptors , but it's Nash that's the system player not Marion ? That's ridiculous , Nash made Marion better , he made Diaw better , you even mentioned he won MIP but somehow that doesn't correlate to him playing with Steve Nash ? And all that stuff about the Mavs not wanting Nash is bull , Nash improved his game on the Suns and Cuban stated he wishes Nash played at that MVP level when he was with the Mavs.

You clearly hate steve nash if you think Marion is the better player and Nash is the system player lol , any team in the league would have loved to have Suns Prime Nash and to deny this is just plain bias

Marion was a good player before Nash ever joined the Suns. Amare at least had a good season in NY after his time in Phoenix. Boris Draw has had a good career and even been a key piece on a title team. Joe Johnson when on to become a multi-time All-Star. It wasn't like Nash made these players into something greater than they actually were.

I don't hate Steve Nash, I just don't think he should have been MVP let alone 2x MVP. Is that really such a controversial position?

[Fico92]

kobe bryant 2005-2006 is a must to mention. not only his crazy ppg, which was 35,4, he also played 41 mpg in 80 games totally. Nobody got ever close to that scoring figure in the last two decades. he led the team to the 7th seed in the west and nearly eliminated suns in the first round. Was a phenomenal season by kobe.

Had a far better individual season than Nash who won MVP. Nash's team won 9 more games.

The Suns were the 2nd seed

The Lakers were the 7th seed.

Four full seeds separated them, while this year (the comparison you're hinting at ) there's two seeds between the two favorites.

[Fico92]

Whether Harden wins it or not, he transformed himself as a player from someone who struggles with a 41-41 record with Dwight, shaqtin' fool winner, Youtube superstar, to a worthy MVP winner orchestrating the league #2 offense, bringing his team to a 3rd best record in the league without another all star sidekick. It was really unfortunate for him both in 14-15 and 16-17 where he had legit case for MVP and only lost to another two historical performances from Curry and WB. Not as flashier as Westbrook this season, Harden still have many historical moments and stats going into the history book. I am happy for both of them.

The race is pretty much over though. Recency bias, media love, the KD story setting up the background, all that, it doesn't matter anymore. Westbrook deserves all the favor he gets for the performance he put up over the last 2-3 weeks. Plus what the guy has done this season, might not ever be done again for a long long time.

Anyone who can hang on to the final moment of one of the most fascinating MVP races in history, that guys is already a winner himself.

Harden endorses Kawhi Leonard for MVP:

"I think that's the most important thing. I thought winning is what this is about -- period," Harden said after recording his 21st triple-double of the season in the Rockets' win over the Sacramento Kings on Sunday. "I'm not going to get in-depth with all that, but I thought winning was the most important thing. If you set your team up in a position to have a chance, at the ultimate goal, that's the most important thing."

Harden probably meant winning is more important when you have godly stats. Both he and WB have godly stats, Kawhi doesn't.

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

Same problem with this comment. This is very misleading. It's a combination of winning + stats. Curry and Kawhi have winning but not stats, Harden and WB have stats, and Harden has a few more wins. That's why it makes this race so fascinating.

So what arbitrary number do Kawhi/Curry have to average in Pts/Reb/Ast in order to qualify for "having the stats" in addition to the wins? Just curious.

[Fico92]

Eveb if Westbrook does not get the PSPA record, I still think that there will be a strong argument for this as the GOAT offensive season in the history of the sport.

nobody whose opinion matters thinks this. He's not touching peak jordan, Curry, Lebron, magic, shaq.

In raw stats, he dominates Curry's best season. If he averages 4 assists and 6 rebounds less, and gets to save his energy to score more...we're looking at him scoring 3-4 more ppg.

It's no surprise that Curry's shooting %s went down all across the board now that the king of illegal screens is no longer on the team...

[Blazers-1977]

2001 Shaq , he was nearly as dominant in 2001 as 2000 and arguably more so after the all star break .

[ken6199]

Whether Harden wins it or not, he transformed himself as a player from someone who struggles with a 41-41 record with Dwight, shaqtin' fool winner, Youtube superstar, to a worthy MVP winner orchestrating the league #2 offense, bringing his team to a 3rd best record in the league without another all star sidekick. It was really unfortunate for him both in 14-15 and 16-17 where he had legit case for MVP and only lost to another two historical performances from Curry and WB. Not as flashier as Westbrook this season, Harden still have many historical moments and stats going into the history book. I am happy for both of them.

The race is pretty much over though. Recency bias, media love, the KD story setting up the background, all that, it doesn't matter anymore. Westbrook deserves all the favor he gets for the performance he put up over the last 2-3 weeks. Plus what the guy has done this season, might not ever be done again for a long long time.

Anyone who can hang on to the final moment of one of the most fascinating MVP races in history, that guys is already a winner himself.

Harden endorses Kawhi Leonard for MVP:

Harden probably meant winning is more important when you have godly stats. Both he and WB have godly stats, Kawhi doesn't.

If you wanna argue the wins > triple doubles, then you gotta give it to Kawhi.

If you wanna argue the stats, you give it to RW.

Same problem with this comment. This is very misleading. It's a combination of winning + stats. Curry and Kawhi have winning but not stats, Harden and WB have stats, and Harden has a few more wins. That's why it makes this race so fascinating.

So what arbitrary number do Kawhi/Curry have to average in Pts/Reb/Ast in order to qualify for "having the stats" in addition to the wins? Just curious.

People have posted above. Scroll back.

[dark shark]

kobe 05-06. sad that version of kobe lasted as long as last year's version of curry.

[OsuCavsfan103]

LeBron pretty much every year he didn't win the MVP. Unless you are going 100% purely on stats I guess. Other than that, LeBron is the MVP by far every season practically. It's to the point he is overlooked bc he is so valuable. Same reason why the best coach never seems to win Coach of the Year... they award goes to someone who wasn't as good prior to the season for the most part....

[Hero]

In the history of the award, no one has won it on a team that didn't finish in the top 4 record wise. The Thunder have the 9th best record in the league.

The media decided to throw history out the window this year. All about triple doubles and raw production.

Can't be mad though. Way more deserving than that Rose MVP season.
Harden can get his chance at revenge in the first round.

[sp6r=underrated]

1. Lebron
2. Westbrook
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. KAwhi

I changed it. I do think Gobert is closer than people realize. One other thing I'll add that will be controversial. I think Chris Paul is the best player in the NBA right now. He can't stay healthy so I penalize him for it.

[Augusto61]

Ignore James Johnson in this picture...I'm going Thomas for 5th

C'mon man, try harder... it's really obvious this pic is old, look at Amar'e Stoudemire in the back... smh