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DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson

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DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#1 » by darealjuice » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:59 pm

Hey guys, back again with the next part in my series on some of the top prospects in the 2017 draft. This time is Josh Jackson, who I am a big fan of because he's fun to watch and he's a Kansas Jayhawk. He technically hasn't declared yet, and Miles Bridges is his close friend and he decided to come back to Michigan State... but I'm not going to pretend Josh is coming back to Kansas :dontknow: . I kept it strictly basketball and will do the same with Lonzo Ball, meaning I didn't really touch on the car stuff because, like Lavar with Lonzo, I doubt it's going to have much of an effect on his draft stock.

Josh Jackson – University of Kansas (Fr.)
Age on Draft Day: 20 years, 4 months
Height: 6’ 8”
Wingspan: 6’ 9.75”
Standing Reach: 8’ 9.75”

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Other Content:
Josh Jackson scouting profile on DraftExpress

Josh Jackson vs SFs (courtesy of kennydorglas):
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Lakers Film Room Scouting Report on Josh Jackson:
Offense:

Defense:


Introduction

Josh Jackson is one of my favorite players from this draft because you very rarely see elite prospects play with the visible intensity and motor that Josh Jackson plays with. Jackson is all over the court for Kansas doing all the little things that separate the teams that win from the rest. He’s crashing the boards hard and racking up double-doubles despite playing out of position as an undersized Power Forward, he’s diving and jumping into the stands going after every loose ball in his range, he’s down in a defensive stance playing the passing lanes and protecting the rim, and he almost never takes a play off on either end. He was a consensus top 3 high school recruit that joined a program notorious for not featuring their freshmen in favor of upperclassmen, accepted a role as the 3rd offensive option/ball handler on offense behind Frank Mason and Devonte’ Graham and the glue guy on defense, was forced to play Power Forward as his primary position once the big man rotation started to dwindle, and he still excelled and almost always looked like the best player on the court despite all of that. Josh Jackson can be a guy that does everything on the court in the NBA with some polish. He can be a slasher at Small Forward with the versatility to play spot minutes at Shooting Guard and Power Forward, he can be an auxiliary playmaker without being a primary ball handler, he can lead the break with the ball and make the right play or be a target at the rim, and he can switch and defend 3-4 positions on the court at any time.

That’s not to say there aren’t questions and concerns about Jackson’s game. Although he shot well from 3 in college at 38% on the season and 43.5% through conference play, there are questions about just how “real” those percentages are because the volume isn’t great, his shooting form is questionable and inconsistent, and he’s a God-awful free throw shooter at 56.6% on the season and 58% through conference play. His frame is the smallest out of the top Forward prospects with average height and length for a Small Forward, although I project Isaac as more of a Power Forward and he’s only slightly smaller than Tatum. In addition, he didn’t see a lot of matchups with NBA Small Forwards, so although he did very well defending on the perimeter and in the post against college Power Forwards, we haven’t seen him play much defense against the caliber of athletes that he’ll go up against in the NBA with guys like Miles Bridges and Dillon Brooks being the closest thing to it that he’s gone up against. I also have questions on just how developed his offensive skillset is. I think he has a very good feel for the game and is a natural, unselfish passer, but his go-to moves on offense are fairly simple and he didn’t do a lot of attacking out of the triple threat because was usually getting the ball on the move. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a bad thing if he weren’t as fundamentally sound on offense because that’d mean there’s plenty of room for improvement despite him being so productive as a freshman, but I don’t think he’s developed the offensive repertoire that a guy like Jayson Tatum has yet.

Offensive Ability

A lot of Jackson’s production on offense comes out of transition and at the rim, with 81 of his 127 made shots at the rim being assisted or off put backs, and it’s a safe bet that a solid percentage of the remaining 46 made shots at the rim come from Jackson getting a steal and taking it coast to coast (wish I could find an exact number, but with 59 steals on the season it’s worth mentioning). Jackson’s role on offense was a lot of stretching zones vertically by hiding on the baseline and being a lob target over the top of the defense, playing in the high post to use his superior athleticism when big men must step up in the zone to guard him and playmaking skills when he draws multiple defenders out of their zones, and moving off the ball while Frank Mason and Devonte’ Graham handled the ball the bulk of the time. Jackson flashed the ability to break down defenders off the dribble at times, but in my opinion he didn’t see enough of the ball considering he was a huge athletic mismatch for most college Power Forwards to defend on the perimeter. He also showed some comfort handling the ball one-on-one against full court pressure at times this season, and although it’s not something he’ll be asked to handle a lot of in the NBA, it is a good sign that he’s comfortable with the ball in his hands and isn’t too rattled by tight defense. With some more development to his ball handling skills, he should be able to abuse his explosion and athleticism and become a very good slasher in the league, especially if he can develop his outside shot to the point where defenses aren’t comfortable with him having time and space to get a clean shot off. Despite isolation scoring being considered Tatum’s calling card, he only yielded .753 points per possession off the dribble on 77 attempts compared to Jackson at .726 pointers per possession on 62 attempts and Jonathan Isaac at .829 points per possession on only 41 possessions shooting off the dribble all season.

Although shooting is the big question going forward for Josh Jackson, it’s somewhat encouraging to see that his in-game shooting efficiencies aren’t too far off from his competition at Small Forward, as he shot 38.1 2PTJ% from mid-range and 37.8 3PT% from 3 on the season, compared to 39.4 2PTJ% and 34.2 3PT% for Tatum and 41 2PTJ% and 34.8 3PT% for Isaac. Obviously, the major knock on projecting him as an NBA 3-point shooter is his horrendous free throw percentage, sitting at an awe-inspiring 56.6% on the season, the exact same as Shaquille O’Neal his first season at LSU. Not good company to be in as far as free throw shooting, unless it’s a weird sign that he’s going to dominate the league like Shaq did. It’s not necessarily the death sentence for his outside shooting, as individually neither college 3PT% or FT% are particularly good indicators of NBA 3-point shooting, but players like Tatum and Isaac with much better FT% and slightly worse college 3PT% do project to be the better shooters according to statistical representations. If I had to guess why he’s such an awful free throw shooter, I’d say it’s because free throw shooting is very dependent on having consistent upper body shot mechanics, and Josh has a bad habit of not keeping a consistent release point on his shot where he occasionally shoots with more of an outward motion than upward and doesn’t get an optimal angle on the basket. He’ll need a lot of repetition and discipline to correct his shot and maintain consistent mechanics, and it might be tough to do a complete overhaul of his shot when he’s 20-years old and has likely been shooting like this for years. If I were coaching him, I would work more on quickening the motion between catching the ball and getting it to the shooting pocket because he can bring the ball out in front of him at times and significantly increase his release time, and get him to focus on a comfortable, repeatable release point. It doesn’t have to be perfect form for him, just consistent and quick enough to get off when contested. He’ll probably never be a knock down shooter in the NBA, but he just needs to be good enough that the defense can’t leave him alone, which I think teams would have trouble doing anyways because he crashes the offensive boards hard and is very good moving off the ball.

Passing

To me, Jackson’s passing ability is what really separates him from the rest of the Small Forward crop. It really says something about his passing when Bill Self says Jackson might be the best passer on the team that had this year’s NPOY playing Point Guard. It translated to the court pretty well, as Jackson’s assist rate is the highest in the lottery of any non-Point Guard with an AST% of 18.2, with Tatum and Issac posting 12.4% and 7.5%, respectively. Jackson flashed just about everything you want to see as a playmaker, whether it was on the money full court passes, one handed swing passes on the move to shooters on the opposite side of the court, pocket passes and lobs to the roll man on pick-and-rolls, finding shooters and cutters in transition, or dump offs off the drive to big men while evading defenders looking for charges. With some more polish on his ball handling skills to help cut down on turnovers, Jackson’s ability to get into the paint, draw in the defense, and find shooters on the perimeter will be very valuable, and if he can add a consistent jump shot to his game then the floor will only continue to open up. Jackson is a bit turnover prone off the pass, occasionally telegraphing cross court passes on the perimeter, tossing quick drop off passes to big men that don’t have the softest hand, and getting caught in the air without someone to pass to. With that said, his turnover rate wasn’t significantly higher than Isaac or Tatum, who had TOV% of 13.3% and 15.0% compared to Jackson’s 15.9% who don’t produce shots for others as well as Jackson does.

Ball Handling

While Jackson has shown some very good development with his ball handling, handling defensive pressure, and creating open looks for himself, he could use a bit more polish before he can maximize his athleticism as a slasher. His dribble can get a bit high at times and leave more space for help defenders to get a clean hand on his dribble. He has a solid foundation of dribble moves with a quick in-and-out dribble, a fluid crossover, and his behind the back dribble that he uses on the move to clear space and step back, but he’ll need to expand on that in the NBA because he can be a bit predictable. We didn’t get to see a ton of Jackson squaring up his defender and going one-on-one, as he got a lot of his work on offense coming off dribble hand-offs at the top of the key and attacking the paint, but he showed some ability to do that in the NCAA tournament against Michigan State and Miles Bridges, who was probably the best NBA talent that Jackson matched up with this year. I’d also like to see Jackson work more on his triple-threat and jab step game, because it wasn’t a consistent part of his offensive game at Kansas and I think he has the explosion to blow by defenders in the NBA if he learns to create the angles without putting down a dribble.

Defense

While there are questions about how versatile he’ll be with his unexciting length, I see Jackson being a high impact player on the defensive end. I think he has that lock down defender mentality and non-stop motor on defense to go with his elite athleticism. He is great at getting into the passing lanes and creating steals or making it difficult for the opposing team to swing the ball on the perimeter and run their offense, he’s a surprisingly natural rim protector for a 6’8” Small Forward/Power Forward, and he has a very fundamentally sound defensive stance with the athleticism to switch and stay in front of just about anyone in college basketball if he stays disciplined. Defensive discipline is one area where Jackson could stand to improve. While his positioning is solid, he can get caught ball watching on the weak side and lose his man on the perimeter leading to open shots, he’ll occasionally reach for steals on the perimeter and get beat to the paint, and he has the tendency to overcommit on help defense and completely leave his man. His athleticism helped him mitigate those issues because he covers ground quickly and is able to recover and contest in some way, but that’s not going to fly in the NBA where everyone can shoot, almost everyone is very athletic, and players know how to make you pay for losing them on defense. I think at worst he’ll be able to switch on every position on the perimeter, and with the Power Forward position trending towards being more perimeter-oriented I think he’ll be fine defending the majority of them.

Fit with the Phoenix Suns

In my opinion, the Suns picking Josh Jackson with either of Markelle Fultz and Lonzo Ball on the board means that they are committed to Eric Bledsoe running the point for the foreseeable future, and I don't see why he wouldn't be the best player available if we dropped to 3 and they were both gone. I think that Josh Jackson checks a lot of the boxes that the Phoenix Suns need filled with Bledsoe here. He can be the bulldog defender that they lost trading PJ Tucker, he can be the secondary/tertiary playmaker to Bledsoe and Booker and help bring the team out of the basement of passing teams in the NBA, and he has the athleticism to be successful in our up-tempo offense as a slasher and lob target in transition and in the half court. His shot needs a lot of work to become consistent, especially from the free throw line, which is something the Suns need, but it’s hard to see them knock Jackson on his shooting ability when his competition at Small Forward, TJ Warren and Derrick Jones Jr., are both bad outside shooters and aren't the playmakers Jackson is. I could see the Suns being wowed by the rest of his game and athleticism and taking the risk on adjusting his shooting form to where he’s still comfortable but more consistent on his mechanics like they are with Jones Jr..

Conclusion

I’m a pretty big fan of Josh Jackson’s game, I think at the very least he’ll be a good 2-way glue guy that is successful as a slasher, scores off the ball, and puts up 4 or 5 assists a game, with the ceiling of being an elite player on both ends if he can develop his outside jump shot to at least be a consistent spot up shooter and get out of the Shaq tier of free throw shooting. I see his floor being relatively safe because of his athleticism, feel for the game, and ability to be a positive impact player on the defensive end. Tough defenders typically find a way to stick around and contribute in the league. While his shot is concerning, I think the upside the comes with his basketball IQ, athleticism, defensive impact, and unselfish passing is more than enough to be successful even if he never becomes an above-average shooter.

Next Prospect: Lonzo Ball

After Lonzo Ball, I'll take a couple requests if anyone wants to see one for someone I haven't done, but I'm not going to make promises on doing a bunch of them lol. Hope everyone enjoys this one, feel free to tell me how wrong you think I am because I'm not perfect and if there's anyone I'd have rose-colored homer shades on it'd be Josh Jackson :lol:
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#2 » by ATTL » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:30 pm

I love Jackson.
Booker, Jackson, Chriss would be an awesome trio. I dont know if I like that more than Fultz/Ball, booker, warren, chriss.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#3 » by darealjuice » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:46 pm

ATTL wrote:I love Jackson.
Booker, Jackson, Chriss would be an awesome trio. I dont know if I like that more than Fultz/Ball, booker, warren, chriss.


If you include Bledsoe in the first group it's pretty strong, but that'd require Bledsoe to age gracefully and stay healthy, which I don't know if we trust him to do. I would definitely prefer Fultz though, and I wouldn't be too upset with Ball even though I have questions about him.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#4 » by Bucks2585 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:46 am

I see an Andre Igoudala. Same type of player, athletic, do it all guy, but a limited shooter. Ultimate glue guy. Doesn't have to be a leading scorer to make an impact and with his questionable shooting,you probably don't want him to be regardless. May have years where he shoots great while others he shoots poorly.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#5 » by darealjuice » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:00 am

Bucks2585 wrote:I see an Andre Igoudala. Same type of player, athletic, do it all guy, but a limited shooter. Ultimate glue guy. Doesn't have to be a leading scorer to make an impact and with his questionable shooting,you probably don't want him to be regardless. May have years where he shoots great while others he shoots poorly.


Yeah that's how I see him too. If he can figure out a way to make his shot more consistent then I think he can be a star, but it's a lot more likely he is a top tier role player that can see make a few all star appearances on his best years.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#6 » by Waylay13 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:16 am

darealjuice wrote:Yeah that's how I see him too. If he can figure out a way to make his shot more consistent then I think he can be a star, but it's a lot more likely he is a top tier role player that can see make a few all star appearances on his best years.


Personally I am hoping that he can be the glue guy that holds the rest of the team together. He is the player that I am hoping that the Suns get more then any other.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#7 » by DRK » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:37 am

Josh Jackson is almost a Jaylen Brown clone in many ways. But I think Jackson has a higher motor and a better dribble/drive game. Plus a better passer.

I was a big fan of Jaylen Brown last year, so naturally I would like Jackson too.

I agree with the point of Jackson being like an Igoudala. If we can get JJ to fit into the GSW Iggy role right now he would be an amazing addition to the second unit as a super sixth man


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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#8 » by PLO » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:12 am

It gets worse when you consider that much of Jackson’s success comes because he plays every game with a mismatch. An NBA level athlete at Wing playing against college level athletes at Power Forward and Center.....

And that a disproportionate amount of Josh Jackson’s college success either comes in transition, on weave plays (which aren’t going to be there in the NBA), when he catches the ball in the paint (also not happening as much) or off of an offensive rebound. (Not so much either.)....

But there are legitimate reasons to believe Jackson’s passing prowess is not going to translate in the same way as a player like Markelle Fultz. It’s quite possible that Jackson’s assist numbers will be slashed in the way Jeff Green’s were after making the jump from Georgetown. (Green was not as sudden, but excelled at the same types of plays we see Jackson excelling with now.)

That’s why the games vs. West Virginia and Iowa St. are so important. These are pretty much the only teams Jackson has played against where consistently faces off against the kind of athletes he’s going to see at the NBA level, at least if he plays on the Wing. And if Jackson plays at Power Forward, most of his defensive advantage should come when he switches onto smaller, quicker players on screens. If Jackson’s susceptible to ISO blow-bys when he’s even or a half beat behind smaller, quicker players, that’s not going to work very well.

That’s not to mention that Jackson has also struggled defensively on guys who actually project at Power Forward like Dean Wade of Kansas State, who was able to shoot over him. Let’s forget that. Even in the scenario Jackson is successful offensively and defensively as a Small Ball Four, smart NBA teams will eventually downsize and force Jackson to beat players who are not only as quick as him, but very often bigger than him. (Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Kawhi, Roberson as examples.) So we’re talking quite possibly about regular season success and Playoff difficulty.

I’m no longer entirely sure if Josh Jackson’s best position going forward is on the Wing or at the Four. The complicating factor is that, given recent and mounting evidence, I have a bleaker view of Jackson’s defensive upside. I could say the same for Jayson Tatum and Miles Bridges. All have certain defensive strengths, while also leaving lots of room for improvement and wishful thinking.

Josh Jackson is currently 20. Due to an arbitrary quirk (the cut off is February 1st whereas Jackson’s birthday is February 10) this is his Age-19 season. Considering he’s a half year to full-year older than most Age 19 players (Andre Iguodala’s birthday, for example, is January 28) it doesn’t really make sense to compare him to Age 19 Freshman. Josh Jackson is effectively a 20-year old, the same as many Sophomores and some juniors.


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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#9 » by darealjuice » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:52 am

PLO wrote:
It gets worse when you consider that much of Jackson’s success comes because he plays every game with a mismatch. An NBA level athlete at Wing playing against college level athletes at Power Forward and Center.....

And that a disproportionate amount of Josh Jackson’s college success either comes in transition, on weave plays (which aren’t going to be there in the NBA), when he catches the ball in the paint (also not happening as much) or off of an offensive rebound. (Not so much either.)....

But there are legitimate reasons to believe Jackson’s passing prowess is not going to translate in the same way as a player like Markelle Fultz. It’s quite possible that Jackson’s assist numbers will be slashed in the way Jeff Green’s were after making the jump from Georgetown. (Green was not as sudden, but excelled at the same types of plays we see Jackson excelling with now.)

That’s why the games vs. West Virginia and Iowa St. are so important. These are pretty much the only teams Jackson has played against where consistently faces off against the kind of athletes he’s going to see at the NBA level, at least if he plays on the Wing. And if Jackson plays at Power Forward, most of his defensive advantage should come when he switches onto smaller, quicker players on screens. If Jackson’s susceptible to ISO blow-bys when he’s even or a half beat behind smaller, quicker players, that’s not going to work very well.

That’s not to mention that Jackson has also struggled defensively on guys who actually project at Power Forward like Dean Wade of Kansas State, who was able to shoot over him. Let’s forget that. Even in the scenario Jackson is successful offensively and defensively as a Small Ball Four, smart NBA teams will eventually downsize and force Jackson to beat players who are not only as quick as him, but very often bigger than him. (Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Kawhi, Roberson as examples.) So we’re talking quite possibly about regular season success and Playoff difficulty.

I’m no longer entirely sure if Josh Jackson’s best position going forward is on the Wing or at the Four. The complicating factor is that, given recent and mounting evidence, I have a bleaker view of Jackson’s defensive upside. I could say the same for Jayson Tatum and Miles Bridges. All have certain defensive strengths, while also leaving lots of room for improvement and wishful thinking.

Josh Jackson is currently 20. Due to an arbitrary quirk (the cut off is February 1st whereas Jackson’s birthday is February 10) this is his Age-19 season. Considering he’s a half year to full-year older than most Age 19 players (Andre Iguodala’s birthday, for example, is January 28) it doesn’t really make sense to compare him to Age 19 Freshman. Josh Jackson is effectively a 20-year old, the same as many Sophomores and some juniors.


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What makes him say dribble weaves aren't there in the NBA? I watch enough basketball to guarantee that the dribble weave at the top of the key is not exclusive to college basketball, so why is it suddenly going to not happen for him? Also, while I doubt he's as successful as he was in college attacking the offensive boards, what is to say that he won't have some success at it? This guy is pretending that put backs weren't common occurrences by Jackson and he isn't one of the best athletes in college basketball.

Yeah it's quite possible that Josh Jackson's assist numbers will be "slashed" when he goes pro, but what makes him say that? A guess? Because it happened to Jeff Green..?

What makes him say that Jackson can't be successful matched up against Lebron, Giannis, Durant, and Kawhi? For that matter, what player in the league is successful matched up against 4 of the top players in the league on defense? And what in the world is Andre Roberson doing being mentioned with that caliber of players?

Why does he have a "bleaker view" of Jackson's defensive upside? Because he played some power forward in college like nearly every recent small forward prospect has? Or is it because he's not freakishly long? Why ignore the production that he's had defending multiple positions in college because he starts the game as a power forward and doesn't have a 7+ foot wingspan?

Why should he be considered so different from the rest of the freshman class when the only players that are really a year younger than him are Fultz, Tatum, and Monk? Why would you compare him with Juniors when if he was playing with his age group he'd be a relatively young sophomore?

I appreciate you posting, but I've seen that article before, can't say I agree with much of it even if I can understand the concern, and I don't see why you can't comment on the post yourself instead of linking another article that speaks poorly on him. I could find many articles speaking favorably about him too lol. Not to mention I've seen this dude pushing what I assume to be unedited articles for at least a year now, and I can't say he's the opinion I'm taking as fact. Just for example, last year the same dude had Derrick Jones Jr, Gary Peyton II, DeAndre Bembry and Brice Johnson in his pre-draft top 10 rankings. I won't say that he's definitely wrong predicting that, but I wouldn't say his prediction is off to a good start with none of them being particularly productive as rookies.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#10 » by PLO » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:27 am

I just posted it as a counterpoint - myself I think Jackson will be at least serviceable in the NBA, however at the start of the college season I saw some awesome potential as a defender, as the season wore on some holes started to appear on that end of the floor for him. On the offensive end I think his season went the other way, I thought initially he was limited but he really came on later on in the season.

I think the most relevant points are how he matched up vs NBA level talent at the college level and in some respects he struggled (as the author points out). I'm wary of him (but not to the extent I'm wary of Lonzo Ball) because I don't think he'll be as good as some other players picked after him in the draft - I think he was locked in as a top 3 prospect early in the season and a lot of people haven't watched him closely thereafter. To be clear, I don't think he'll bust but in terms of draft capital I would prefer to go in another direction with a top 3 pick because I don't think he'll be the 2 way player many project him to be and the fact there are a LOT of players of his size and archetype around, if he could repeat being the defensive terror he was early on this season next NBA season my outlook on him would change positively.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#11 » by darealjuice » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:52 am

PLO wrote:I just posted it as a counterpoint - myself I think Jackson will be at least serviceable in the NBA, however at the start of the college season I saw some awesome potential as a defender, as the season wore on some holes started to appear on that end of the floor for him. On the offensive end I think his season went the other way, I thought initially he was limited but he really came on later on in the season.

I think the most relevant points are how he matched up vs NBA level talent at the college level and in some respects he struggled (as the author points out). I'm wary of him (but not to the extent I'm wary of Lonzo Ball) because I don't think he'll be as good as some other players picked after him in the draft - I think he was locked in as a top 3 prospect early in the season and a lot of people haven't watched him closely thereafter. To be clear, I don't think he'll bust but in terms of draft capital I would prefer to go in another direction with a top 3 pick because I don't think he'll be the 2 way player many project him to be and the fact there are a LOT of players of his size and archetype around, if he could repeat being the defensive terror he was early on this season next NBA season my outlook on him would change positively.


Fair enough, I wasn't trying to be an ass or anything, I've just seen that guy posting his articles around for awhile now and he's published what I consider to be some pretty interesting opinions. I agree with you that he trended a bit downward on defense while making improvements on offense, but I thought he was still the best defender on that Kansas team. The drop off I saw when he was off the floor was huge for that team. You knew that Kansas vs Oregon game was going to be a struggle the minute that Josh Jackson got in foul trouble early in the first half. I do see what you mean though. I will say that I don't think he played many guys that will play Small Forward in the NBA this year, so it's tough to judge how he's going to do against them. I just think it's easy to project him being a positive defender because he was able to guard multiple positions in college and while his length isn't impressive, his athleticism should be enough to compensate for it. Even if he's not an elite on ball defender, he'll be a very good help defender on the perimeter and at the rim and should still be successful playing the passing lanes.

Out of curiosity, who are some guys that you see being better him that would be picked outside of the top 3? I can see it happening for sure, but I think a lot of the appeal to Jackson is that it's relatively safe to assume he'll at least be successful as a high-end role player in the NBA, and if he figures out his shot and his game translates then the sky is the limit with his athleticism.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#12 » by PLO » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:42 am

darealjuice wrote:Out of curiosity, who are some guys that you see being better him that would be picked outside of the top 3? I can see it happening for sure, but I think a lot of the appeal to Jackson is that it's relatively safe to assume he'll at least be successful as a high-end role player in the NBA, and if he figures out his shot and his game translates then the sky is the limit with his athleticism.


Just to be clear, what I mean is there are players who play his position who will have more "value" relative to where they are picked in the draft, so for example we (the Sixers) picked up Luwawu Cabarrot last year (as a late first rounder) and he's been good as the SF/SG I see Jackson as settling into eventually in the NBA. The fact you have the Jimmy Bulters, Kawhi Leonards and Robert Covingtons in the league shows you can pick up genuine 2 way players anywhere in the draft. In other words I think Jackson has the best potential to be this type of player from this draft I think there are enough questions over him as to whether he will ever achieve that potential, thus I would prefer to go in another direction with a top 3 pick and hope to pick up a more developmental guy whose metrics look OK in the 2nd round to fill the Jackson role.

I'm really high on Fultz and Isaac; to me they are the top 2 prospects, having said that I doubt the latter goes top 5 but what he has fits pretty much perfectly into today's NBA (albeit he is a few years away). After that I have DSJ, Tatum, Jackson, Fox and Frank N. As a Sixers fan I would take Fox, Frank N, DSJ and Tatum ahead of Jackson, as well as Malik Monk (though I think Jackson is the better prospect) but admittedly we have a need for both defensive guard play and scoring, traits those players have and Jackson doesn't (relative to them). You will note the absence of Lonzo Ball who I'm quite down on as a prospect.

Admittedly if a team has a need for a SF and has a top 3 pick and Jackson is there he's pretty much a no-brainer, but in a vacuum I don't think he's going to live up to that billing.
LakersDynasty14 wrote:Lonzo Ball is literally on a Hall of Fame trajectory at this point. This thread is so full of fail.


shakes0 wrote:I hope they put Simmons on Trae. He'll foul him out by the 3rd quarter. plus Simmons can't stay in front of Trae. No one can.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#13 » by Bogyo » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:22 am

I also see him as something between Iggy and Wiggins, to be honest I don't even really understand the small-ball 4 thing with him. Yes, he was pretty much forced to play that in college last year, and was good at it, but he is a wing. Yes, he needs to be a better shooter, but so did Iggy, Wiggins, Khwai, etc... Guess what? They did become better - to warying degrees. To me the only question is how much better will JJ become? Not much? Then he is a poor mans Igoudala. A lot? We might have a better Wiggins, or dare I say a Khwai on our hands for the forseeable future next to Booker. In this draft he is clear #2 to me only behind Fultz.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#14 » by MrMiyagi » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:42 am

PLO wrote:
darealjuice wrote:Out of curiosity, who are some guys that you see being better him that would be picked outside of the top 3? I can see it happening for sure, but I think a lot of the appeal to Jackson is that it's relatively safe to assume he'll at least be successful as a high-end role player in the NBA, and if he figures out his shot and his game translates then the sky is the limit with his athleticism.


Just to be clear, what I mean is there are players who play his position who will have more "value" relative to where they are picked in the draft, so for example we (the Sixers) picked up Luwawu Cabarrot last year (as a late first rounder) and he's been good as the SF/SG I see Jackson as settling into eventually in the NBA. The fact you have the Jimmy Bulters, Kawhi Leonards and Robert Covingtons in the league shows you can pick up genuine 2 way players anywhere in the draft. In other words I think Jackson has the best potential to be this type of player from this draft I think there are enough questions over him as to whether he will ever achieve that potential, thus I would prefer to go in another direction with a top 3 pick and hope to pick up a more developmental guy whose metrics look OK in the 2nd round to fill the Jackson role.

I'm really high on Fultz and Isaac; to me they are the top 2 prospects, having said that I doubt the latter goes top 5 but what he has fits pretty much perfectly into today's NBA (albeit he is a few years away). After that I have DSJ, Tatum, Jackson, Fox and Frank N. As a Sixers fan I would take Fox, Frank N, DSJ and Tatum ahead of Jackson, as well as Malik Monk (though I think Jackson is the better prospect) but admittedly we have a need for both defensive guard play and scoring, traits those players have and Jackson doesn't (relative to them). You will note the absence of Lonzo Ball who I'm quite down on as a prospect.

Admittedly if a team has a need for a SF and has a top 3 pick and Jackson is there he's pretty much a no-brainer, but in a vacuum I don't think he's going to live up to that billing.

Wait, because people missed on Kawhi and Butler (who are probably both top 5 in the redraft of 2011), we shouldn't take a guy in their mold top 3? Isn't that some back-assward thinking? "Minnesota/Utah/Cleveland are kicking themselves for not drafting Kawhi and Butler, so we shouldn't draft Josh Jackson." :crazy:

EDIT: If anything, talk of Jackson being "a mature freshman" should be a great reason in his favor to be drafted. Kawhi was a Sophomore and Butler was a Senior. Both were probably knocked for that and thought to have less of a ceiling. Should we not avoid that pitfall and take the more mature player?
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#15 » by PLO » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:32 am

MrMiyagi wrote:
PLO wrote:
darealjuice wrote:Out of curiosity, who are some guys that you see being better him that would be picked outside of the top 3? I can see it happening for sure, but I think a lot of the appeal to Jackson is that it's relatively safe to assume he'll at least be successful as a high-end role player in the NBA, and if he figures out his shot and his game translates then the sky is the limit with his athleticism.


Just to be clear, what I mean is there are players who play his position who will have more "value" relative to where they are picked in the draft, so for example we (the Sixers) picked up Luwawu Cabarrot last year (as a late first rounder) and he's been good as the SF/SG I see Jackson as settling into eventually in the NBA. The fact you have the Jimmy Bulters, Kawhi Leonards and Robert Covingtons in the league shows you can pick up genuine 2 way players anywhere in the draft. In other words I think Jackson has the best potential to be this type of player from this draft I think there are enough questions over him as to whether he will ever achieve that potential, thus I would prefer to go in another direction with a top 3 pick and hope to pick up a more developmental guy whose metrics look OK in the 2nd round to fill the Jackson role.

I'm really high on Fultz and Isaac; to me they are the top 2 prospects, having said that I doubt the latter goes top 5 but what he has fits pretty much perfectly into today's NBA (albeit he is a few years away). After that I have DSJ, Tatum, Jackson, Fox and Frank N. As a Sixers fan I would take Fox, Frank N, DSJ and Tatum ahead of Jackson, as well as Malik Monk (though I think Jackson is the better prospect) but admittedly we have a need for both defensive guard play and scoring, traits those players have and Jackson doesn't (relative to them). You will note the absence of Lonzo Ball who I'm quite down on as a prospect.

Admittedly if a team has a need for a SF and has a top 3 pick and Jackson is there he's pretty much a no-brainer, but in a vacuum I don't think he's going to live up to that billing.

Wait, because people missed on Kawhi and Butler (who are probably both top 5 in the redraft of 2011), we shouldn't take a guy in their mold top 3? Isn't that some back-assward thinking? "Minnesota/Utah/Cleveland are kicking themselves for not drafting Kawhi and Butler, so we shouldn't draft Josh Jackson." :crazy:

EDIT: If anything, talk of Jackson being "a mature freshman" should be a great reason in his favor to be drafted. Kawhi was a Sophomore and Butler was a Senior. Both were probably knocked for that and thought to have less of a ceiling. Should we not avoid that pitfall and take the more mature player?


I'm not really sure that's how it works in terms of age of prospects - Kawhi was middle first round, Butler I think second rounder - agreed if Jackson ends up even 90% of Jimmy Butler he's a slam-dunk top 3, but obviously I don't think he'll get there. Frank N, 18 months younger, will be a better defender and more versatile on that end than Jackson IMO, and they might end up playing roughly the same position in the NBA given Jackson's going to really struggle defensively vs NBA power forwards.
LakersDynasty14 wrote:Lonzo Ball is literally on a Hall of Fame trajectory at this point. This thread is so full of fail.


shakes0 wrote:I hope they put Simmons on Trae. He'll foul him out by the 3rd quarter. plus Simmons can't stay in front of Trae. No one can.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#16 » by MrMiyagi » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:08 am

PLO wrote:I'm not really sure that's how it works in terms of age of prospects - Kawhi was middle first round, Butler I think second rounder - agreed if Jackson ends up even 90% of Jimmy Butler he's a slam-dunk top 3, but obviously I don't think he'll get there. Frank N, 18 months younger, will be a better defender and more versatile on that end than Jackson IMO, and they might end up playing roughly the same position in the NBA given Jackson's going to really struggle defensively vs NBA power forwards.

You think the 6'5 170lbs French point guard is going to be better and more versatile defensively than the 6'8 203lbs small forward because you don't think Jackson can defend power forwards next level? Why? Size and strength difference? Doesn't the problems you foresee Jackson having with power forwards match the problems Frank would have with small forwards? Wouldn't that make him a less versatile defender, only able to effectively guard 2 positions (1/2) vs 3 (1/2/3)?
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#17 » by PLO » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:26 am

MrMiyagi wrote:
PLO wrote:I'm not really sure that's how it works in terms of age of prospects - Kawhi was middle first round, Butler I think second rounder - agreed if Jackson ends up even 90% of Jimmy Butler he's a slam-dunk top 3, but obviously I don't think he'll get there. Frank N, 18 months younger, will be a better defender and more versatile on that end than Jackson IMO, and they might end up playing roughly the same position in the NBA given Jackson's going to really struggle defensively vs NBA power forwards.

You think the 6'5 170lbs French point guard is going to be better and more versatile defensively than the 6'8 203lbs small forward because you don't think Jackson can defend power forwards next level? Why? Size and strength difference? Doesn't the problems you foresee Jackson having with power forwards match the problems Frank would have with small forwards? Wouldn't that make him a less versatile defender, only able to effectively guard 2 positions (1/2) vs 3 (1/2/3)?


My point is Jackson is getting blown by by guards in college - I think he's limited to exclusively guarding fellow SFs which will limit his minutes - at the start of the season I thought he was rare Swiss-army knife defender adept at defending multiple positions - I no longer think that (and in fact I think eventually Isaac will be that player if there is one from this draft). Frank N will be able to defend fellow guards and occasionally pinch hit against SFs, I think he's going to be a lot more useful defensively in a league dominated by PGs. Hey, I'm not sold on Frank N as an initiator and he could well be the next Dante Exum in terms of being defensively solid but offensively inept, but if you look at the Sixers we are running with Simmons as the initiator and we need someone who can defend the opposition PG who is comfortable playing off ball - that's why I'd go with Frank N ahead of Jackson. Fair enough other teams have different needs.

Hey, I'm not trolling here - this is a good thread with some solid opinions in it - end of the day none of us is right and none wrong, its all conjecture at this stage.
LakersDynasty14 wrote:Lonzo Ball is literally on a Hall of Fame trajectory at this point. This thread is so full of fail.


shakes0 wrote:I hope they put Simmons on Trae. He'll foul him out by the 3rd quarter. plus Simmons can't stay in front of Trae. No one can.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#18 » by MrMiyagi » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:57 am

PLO wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:
PLO wrote:I'm not really sure that's how it works in terms of age of prospects - Kawhi was middle first round, Butler I think second rounder - agreed if Jackson ends up even 90% of Jimmy Butler he's a slam-dunk top 3, but obviously I don't think he'll get there. Frank N, 18 months younger, will be a better defender and more versatile on that end than Jackson IMO, and they might end up playing roughly the same position in the NBA given Jackson's going to really struggle defensively vs NBA power forwards.

You think the 6'5 170lbs French point guard is going to be better and more versatile defensively than the 6'8 203lbs small forward because you don't think Jackson can defend power forwards next level? Why? Size and strength difference? Doesn't the problems you foresee Jackson having with power forwards match the problems Frank would have with small forwards? Wouldn't that make him a less versatile defender, only able to effectively guard 2 positions (1/2) vs 3 (1/2/3)?


My point is Jackson is getting blown by by guards in college - I think he's limited to exclusively guarding fellow SFs which will limit his minutes - at the start of the season I thought he was rare Swiss-army knife defender adept at defending multiple positions - I no longer think that (and in fact I think eventually Isaac will be that player if there is one from this draft). Frank N will be able to defend fellow guards and occasionally pinch hit against SFs, I think he's going to be a lot more useful defensively in a league dominated by PGs. Hey, I'm not sold on Frank N as an initiator and he could well be the next Dante Exum in terms of being defensively solid but offensively inept, but if you look at the Sixers we are running with Simmons as the initiator and we need someone who can defend the opposition PG who is comfortable playing off ball - that's why I'd go with Frank N ahead of Jackson. Fair enough other teams have different needs.

Hey, I'm not trolling here - this is a good thread with some solid opinions in it - end of the day none of us is right and none wrong, its all conjecture at this stage.

I didn't think you were trolling, I just don't get your opinion. You're also a 76ers fan in a Suns thread. I don't see French Frank as ever being a more versatile defender than Jackson. Higher impact might've been a better choice for what you seem to be describing (which I'd still argue against).
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#19 » by Bogyo » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:59 am

PLO wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:
PLO wrote:I'm not really sure that's how it works in terms of age of prospects - Kawhi was middle first round, Butler I think second rounder - agreed if Jackson ends up even 90% of Jimmy Butler he's a slam-dunk top 3, but obviously I don't think he'll get there. Frank N, 18 months younger, will be a better defender and more versatile on that end than Jackson IMO, and they might end up playing roughly the same position in the NBA given Jackson's going to really struggle defensively vs NBA power forwards.

You think the 6'5 170lbs French point guard is going to be better and more versatile defensively than the 6'8 203lbs small forward because you don't think Jackson can defend power forwards next level? Why? Size and strength difference? Doesn't the problems you foresee Jackson having with power forwards match the problems Frank would have with small forwards? Wouldn't that make him a less versatile defender, only able to effectively guard 2 positions (1/2) vs 3 (1/2/3)?


My point is Jackson is getting blown by by guards in college - I think he's limited to exclusively guarding fellow SFs which will limit his minutes - at the start of the season I thought he was rare Swiss-army knife defender adept at defending multiple positions - I no longer think that (and in fact I think eventually Isaac will be that player if there is one from this draft). Frank N will be able to defend fellow guards and occasionally pinch hit against SFs, I think he's going to be a lot more useful defensively in a league dominated by PGs. Hey, I'm not sold on Frank N as an initiator and he could well be the next Dante Exum in terms of being defensively solid but offensively inept, but if you look at the Sixers we are running with Simmons as the initiator and we need someone who can defend the opposition PG who is comfortable playing off ball - that's why I'd go with Frank N ahead of Jackson. Fair enough other teams have different needs.

Hey, I'm not trolling here - this is a good thread with some solid opinions in it - end of the day none of us is right and none wrong, its all conjecture at this stage.


I just don't see how this will be true. There are so many types of PG's SG's, SF's and PF's in todays game, and a good defender can limit them in so many ways that I'm pretty sure JJ will find a way, as he is athletic enough and seems to have a good bbiq, understands defensive schemes, etc... look at his assists, steals, blocks, those confirm this, or the fact that he played and defended all type of players last year. He wasn't always succesful, but which 19 old playing kid is - mostly playing out of position to boot?

(I only dare to ask real quiet what do you think of the defensive/overall chances of Lonzo - maybe come back when DarealJuice made his write up about him next week or so?)

But yeah, at least a good conversation, you brouhg up some points wich were not beaten to death before. We'll have to agree to disagree, and wait for the "truth" for another 2-5years. :)
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 5: Josh Jackson 

Post#20 » by MrMiyagi » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:07 am

Bogyo wrote:I just don't see how this will be true. There are so many types of PG's SG's, SF's and PF's in todays game, and a good defender can limit them in so many ways that I'm pretty sure JJ will find a way, as he is athletic enough and seems to have a good bbiq, understands defensive schemes, etc... look at his assists, steals, blocks, those confirm this, or the fact that he played and defended all type of players last year. He wasn't always succesful, but which 19 old playing kid is - mostly playing out of position to boot?

(I only dare to ask real quiet what do you think of the defensive/overall chances of Lonzo - maybe come back when DarealJuice made his write up about him next week or so?)

But yeah, at least a good conversation, you brouhg up some points wich were not beaten to death before. We'll have to agree to disagree, and wait for the "truth" for another 2-5years. :)

Lonzo is good at playing passing lanes, but he doesn't seem to be good at on-ball defense, especially playing screens. There's some hope with his size, but I doubt he'll have a reputation as a good defender.
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