2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread III

[76ciology]

What about Tatum's defense? How would you guys rank Tatum Jackson and Isaac as far as defending their particular position?

Tatum Is a good defender. He really reminds me of Tobias Harris on D and a SF version of Okafor on O. So... im not that high on him.

I think he'll get blocked a lot scoring in the paint. He won't be able to get pass his defender. His hot zone is at mid range and analytics won't love his scoring.

[Eyeamok]

Letting him drink from the firehose is such a horrible way to learn. It's an easy way to compound your mistakes and develop a lot of bad habits. Sitting on the bench and watching someone else do what you should do then going in and dong it has proven to be much more effective way of learning.

But Ingram is the Lakers problem not ours so have at it.

And even though I hate the fact that Simmons did not play the entire season. If he is on the same development/study program that Embiid was on. He should be more court aware next season which is great for the team.

Since when is allowing a young player to learn by playing a bad thing? Dallas sent Dirk out there before he was ready to compete and he looked terrible for two years, before he caught up. You either have the talent or you don't. He's not strong enough to look good. If he calls, it won't be because they gave him too many minutes in his rookie year, it will be because he doesn't have the talent or skills.

Agreed. i am in the line of thinking that sending young players out to the wolves earlier is better. They need to get acclimated to the physicality, length, and speed of the game. The sooner the better. If they have the talent, they will adjust. The adjustment period could be a year, could be two years. And I feel more confident when you have a good headcoach and staff.

I'm also for one and dones. The sooner they get into the league and start playing, the better they'll be in the future (if they have the talent)

That's fine for you. But for me I'm not throwing anyone to the wolves until I know they are ready. These top lottery picks are gold to a franchise. If you throw them to the wolves before they are ready you have just set your franchise back and squandered a very valuable pick. Me I treat my top picks like gold and give them every opportunity to succeed. Which might mean handling them with kid gloves and minute restrictions, until they prove they can handle playing at this level.

And I agree with the one and done. But I also believe the NBA should invest more into the D-league and have a true farm system. Just let guys that don't want to go to school go to a farm system. But then it cuts into the $$ of college basketball. And at all costs the amateur status of this kids must stay in tact.

[Negrodamus]

As we get closer to the draft, I'm having a harder time taking many of these freshman PGs over Donovan Mitchell.

Where do you rank him?

I'm not sure. I'd have to look at all the prospects again to get an idea. I'll do it later tonight.

It's funny to read that people think of Lou Williams or JR Smith when they watch Malik Monk. I disagree. I see JR Smith in Donovan Mitchell at UL. He takes some ill advised shots and forces the issue at times, but also gets hot from out there. He also has the handles and quickness to drive and has the vertical ability to slam over players.

The difference is that Mitchell a much better defender coming into the league. I don't know what his wingspan is going to be, but if it's over 6'9 or 6'10, he's somewhere in 5-10.

[HotelVitale]

I'm not sold on Isaac

I keep thinking people like him as an idea (long, sweet-shooting defensive wing) rather than as the actual dude that just played 30-some games. That dude's really tough to judge. He's super skinny, can't finish against coverage/contact, and was nearly worthless with the ball in his hands (on almost all of his plays were catch and shoot or alley-oop dunks).

On the other hand, he runs the floor really well, his stroke is nice, and he'd have great size and motor for a wing. Overall, he seems like one of those guys who could be really regular in the NBA but has enough extra positives (length, spacing potential, embryos of a driving game) that he could turn into something special if ends up developing a little better than usual. Against even odds, I would bet on him becoming just a guy but wouldn't hate us trying him out because of that upside (and fit with our other young bucks).

[cksdayoff]

Where do you rank him?

I'm not sure. I'd have to look at all the prospects again to get an idea. I'll do it later tonight.

It's funny to read that people think of Lou Williams or JR Smith when they watch Malik Monk. I disagree. I see JR Smith in Donovan Mitchell at UL. He takes some ill advised shots and forces the issue at times, but also gets hot from out there. He also has the handles and quickness to drive and has the vertical ability to slam over players.

The difference is that Mitchell a much better defender coming into the league. I don't know what his wingspan is going to be, but if it's over 6'9 or 6'10, he's somewhere in 5-10.

I love Donovan Mitchell as a defender and as a spot up 3 point shooter, but his handles are very weak imo. He was the secondary ball handler for Louisville and he WAS the temporary PG when Snider was out with injury. He has some passing ability but seriously, his handles aren't good for an NBA level pg right now.

[Negrodamus]

I'm not sure. I'd have to look at all the prospects again to get an idea. I'll do it later tonight.

It's funny to read that people think of Lou Williams or JR Smith when they watch Malik Monk. I disagree. I see JR Smith in Donovan Mitchell at UL. He takes some ill advised shots and forces the issue at times, but also gets hot from out there. He also has the handles and quickness to drive and has the vertical ability to slam over players.

The difference is that Mitchell a much better defender coming into the league. I don't know what his wingspan is going to be, but if it's over 6'9 or 6'10, he's somewhere in 5-10.

I love Donovan Mitchell as a defender and as a spot up 3 point shooter, but his handles are very weak imo. He was the secondary ball handler for Louisville and he WAS the temporary PG when Snider was out with injury. He has some passing ability but seriously, his handles aren't good for an NBA level pg right now.

He'll be the secondary ball handler for us if we are to draft him.

[cksdayoff]

I'm not sold on Isaac

I keep thinking people like him as an idea (long, sweet-shooting defensive wing) rather than as the actual dude that just played 30-some games. That dude's really tough to judge. He's super skinny, can't finish against coverage/contact, and was nearly worthless with the ball in his hands (on almost all of his plays were catch and shoot or alley-oop dunks).

On the other hand, he runs the floor really well, his stroke is nice, and he'd have great size and motor for a wing. Overall, he seems like one of those guys who could be really regular in the NBA but has enough extra positives (length, spacing potential, embryos of a driving game) that he could turn into something special if ends up developing a little better than usual. Against even odds, I would bet on him becoming just a guy but wouldn't hate us trying him out because of that upside (and fit with our other young bucks).

I agree with everything you wrote. The main thing is his body type. He's so stick thin and his position is probably PF in the NBA. Also, the first time I watched him play, he reminded me of Moe Harkless but with handles (and it's probably because of the body type). But it's hard to dissect his game from his freshman season for me.

but like you said with his positive aspects, he makes perfect sense for the Sixers.

[eagereyez]

I'm not sold on Isaac

I keep thinking people like him as an idea (long, sweet-shooting defensive wing) rather than as the actual dude that just played 30-some games. That dude's really tough to judge. He's super skinny, can't finish against coverage/contact, and was nearly worthless with the ball in his hands (on almost all of his plays were catch and shoot or alley-oop dunks).

On the other hand, he runs the floor really well, his stroke is nice, and he'd have great size and motor for a wing. Overall, he seems like one of those guys who could be really regular in the NBA but has enough extra positives (length, spacing potential, embryos of a driving game) that he could turn into something special if ends up developing a little better than usual. Against even odds, I would bet on him becoming just a guy but wouldn't hate us trying him out because of that upside (and fit with our other young bucks).

He had a very high FTr for a dude who mostly scored on catch and shoots or alley-oops. His FTr was almost the same as Smith Jr's.

He also shot 78% from the line. Seems like he and Tatum are being a bit underrated. I'm just wondering how he'd fit on the team. The lineup would have to be Embiid/Isaac/Simmons/Covington/PG. That's a ridiculously tall, long, and athletic team.

[Negrodamus]

I'm not sold on Isaac

I keep thinking people like him as an idea (long, sweet-shooting defensive wing) rather than as the actual dude that just played 30-some games. That dude's really tough to judge. He's super skinny, can't finish against coverage/contact, and was nearly worthless with the ball in his hands (on almost all of his plays were catch and shoot or alley-oop dunks).

On the other hand, he runs the floor really well, his stroke is nice, and he'd have great size and motor for a wing. Overall, he seems like one of those guys who could be really regular in the NBA but has enough extra positives (length, spacing potential, embryos of a driving game) that he could turn into something special if ends up developing a little better than usual. Against even odds, I would bet on him becoming just a guy but wouldn't hate us trying him out because of that upside (and fit with our other young bucks).

He had a very high FTr for a dude who mostly scored on catch and shoots or alley-oops. His FTr was almost the same as Smith Jr's.

He also shot 78% from the line. Seems like he and Tatum are being a bit underrated. I'm just wondering how he'd fit on the team. The lineup would have to be Embiid/Isaac/Simmons/Covington/PG. That's a ridiculously tall, long, and athletic team.

He was also 70% at the rim, so I'm not really sure about the struggling to finish at the rim.

[HotelVitale]

I'm not sure. I'd have to look at all the prospects again to get an idea. I'll do it later tonight.

It's funny to read that people think of Lou Williams or JR Smith when they watch Malik Monk. I disagree. I see JR Smith in Donovan Mitchell at UL. He takes some ill advised shots and forces the issue at times, but also gets hot from out there. He also has the handles and quickness to drive and has the vertical ability to slam over players. The difference is that Mitchell a much better defender coming into the league. I don't know what his wingspan is going to be, but if it's over 6'9 or 6'10, he's somewhere in 5-10.

I love Donovan Mitchell as a defender and as a spot up 3 point shooter, but his handles are very weak imo. He was the secondary ball handler for Louisville and he WAS the temporary PG when Snider was out with injury. He has some passing ability but seriously, his handles aren't good for an NBA level pg right now.

I like Mitchell and would love to get him later in the draft somehow, but Monk seems clearly superior. His shot has better range, better mechanics, and a quicker release, and he can hit all day off screens and from weird angles. Mitchell's more of a solid catch-and-shoot or face-up shooter (isn't a 'tough shot maker' as the cliche goes). And apart from that Monk is a friggin water bug, he's quick and spry as hell and has awesome body control.

I don't like any of the Lou Will/JR Smith comparisons, but I'm wondering why Monk isn't a 3pt shooting version of Rip Hamilton?

[Unbreakable99]

For Tatum lovers like myself this isn't a good article lol. I like his breakdowns. I still like Tatum but I like what he wrote. He brought up some good points.

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[Unbreakable99]

The same guy does seem to reallymlove Isaac though.

Read on Twitter

[HotelVitale]

He was also 70% at the rim, so I'm not really sure about the struggling to finish at the rim.

Most of his shots there were putbacks, dunks, etc. Check the many many videos that are out there--he scores a lot in transition and a fair amount on alley-oops, but almost never on contested shots in the paint (and when he does it's not pretty). I'm not trying to knock him, just don't see any argument that he's a good finisher for a top-10 prospect.

He had a very high FTr for a dude who mostly scored on catch and shoots or alley-oops. His FTr was almost the same as Smith Jr's.

He was the tallest/longest guy on the court most games, he was allowed to play down low, and he has good energy. I'd guess that almost all of his fouls come from transition or from putbacks, with some from him getting decent position that forced smaller or plodding/slower guy to hack him.

I'm really not trying to attack Isaac, seems like you all are making me work really hard to get some obvious stuff out! He's not a driver now, just not his game. And he's very skinny and not particularly slithery, basically a straight line guy that can't take much contact. Like I said, lots of other stuff to like too.

[Negrodamus]

It's funny to read that people think of Lou Williams or JR Smith when they watch Malik Monk. I disagree. I see JR Smith in Donovan Mitchell at UL. He takes some ill advised shots and forces the issue at times, but also gets hot from out there. He also has the handles and quickness to drive and has the vertical ability to slam over players. The difference is that Mitchell a much better defender coming into the league. I don't know what his wingspan is going to be, but if it's over 6'9 or 6'10, he's somewhere in 5-10.

I love Donovan Mitchell as a defender and as a spot up 3 point shooter, but his handles are very weak imo. He was the secondary ball handler for Louisville and he WAS the temporary PG when Snider was out with injury. He has some passing ability but seriously, his handles aren't good for an NBA level pg right now.

I like Mitchell and would love to get him later in the draft somehow, but Monk seems clearly superior. His shot has better range, better mechanics, and a quicker release, and he can hit all day off screens and from weird angles. Mitchell's more of a solid catch-and-shoot or face-up shooter (isn't a 'tough shot maker' as the cliche goes). And apart from that Monk is a friggin water bug, he's quick and spry as hell and has awesome body control.

I don't like any of the Lou Will/JR Smith comparisons, but I'm wondering why Monk isn't a 3pt shooting version of Rip Hamilton?

From a UK fan, Louisvlle hater, I don't think this is correct. There's more than one side of the ball and Mitchell completely outclasses Monk on defense.

Also, it helps having De'Aaron Fox be one of the best at penetrating in the past 5 years. Also, Fox was defending the opposing team's best perimeter player. Monk had it pretty easy.

[Unbreakable99]

Part of his article included comparing Isaac to Covington.

One player I think it’s interesting to compare Isaac to is Robert Covington. Covington was a similar stud in terms of stocks and rebounds in college. Though Isaac was definitely more impressive because his defensive numbers as a freshman at Florida State were as good as RoCo’s as a senior at Tennessee State.
Anyway, Covington has been a borderline top-20 player by RPM this year, largely due to his defensive impact. RPM certainly overrates Covington, but he is also unquestionably a high-impact NBA defender. Isaac and Covington are similar defenders in that neither are overwhelming athletes, but they both have incredible hands. Covington’s court awareness is better, but Isaac offers more as a rebounder and interior defender as well as having better feet to contain guys.
Basically, it is not hard to construct an argument that Isaac could be just as good as Covington as a defender, if not better. On offense, Covington was a much better shooting prospect, but Isaac is far more advanced in the rest of his offensive game. Covington hasn’t even shot the ball well in his great season this year and is playing at the 3, so it’s fair to say Isaac could be significantly better than what Covington has been on offense.
The point I’m trying to get at here is that Isaac has the chance to be noticeably better on both ends than Robert Covington, and Covington, though overrated by metrics, is one of the more underrated players in the NBA.

[HotelVitale]

For Tatum lovers like myself this isn't a good article lol. I like his breakdowns. I still like Tatum but I like what he wrote. He brought up some good points.

I'm not a Tatum guy but I have to say that those defensive examples don't make much sense to me. The second and third video show Tatum playing good defense before he runs into his own out-of-position teammates, and the next one he forces the driver into a weird loping shot that the guy misses pretty badly. Then all of the ones about his rotations seem either off or petty--he hedges on the cutter and sticks to his man, which seems more like the coaches' decision than his own and in any case have nothing to do with his physical failings. All three of those vids show a complete and utter failure by the pn'r guys and Tatum actually does a pretty decent job of trying to contest as a help man.

I don't like any of the Lou Will/JR Smith comparisons, but I'm wondering why Monk isn't a 3pt shooting version of Rip Hamilton?

From a UK fan, Louisvlle hater, I don't think this is correct. There's more than one side of the ball and Mitchell completely outclasses Monk on defense. Also, it helps having De'Aaron Fox be one of the best at penetrating in the past 5 years. Also, Fox was defending the opposing team's best perimeter player. Monk had it pretty easy.

Sure, but I wasn't talking about defense or Monk's overall #s (which Fox would've helped with). Point was that as far as tools and abilites go Monk's in another class as a scorer and has a chance to be special in that. I don't like a lot about him and I was prepared to see him as another high-scoring overhyped UK guy earlier in the year, but the videos tell me the dude's really dynamic as a shooter and general scorer. I see plenty of reason to get excited about his potential while Mitchell seems more like a solid-shooting high-intensity back-up if things work out well.

[Negrodamus]

I don't like any of the Lou Will/JR Smith comparisons, but I'm wondering why Monk isn't a 3pt shooting version of Rip Hamilton?

From a UK fan, Louisvlle hater, I don't think this is correct. There's more than one side of the ball and Mitchell completely outclasses Monk on defense. Also, it helps having De'Aaron Fox be one of the best at penetrating in the past 5 years. Also, Fox was defending the opposing team's best perimeter player. Monk had it pretty easy.

Sure, but I wasn't talking about defense or Monk's overall #s (which Fox would've helped with). Point was that as far as tools and abilites go Monk's in another class as a scorer and has a chance to be special in that. I don't like a lot about him and I was prepared to see him as another high-scoring overhyped UK guy earlier in the year, but the videos tell me the dude's really dynamic as a shooter and general scorer. I see plenty of reason to get excited about his potential while Mitchell seems more like a solid-shooting high-intensity back-up if things work out well.

I actually don't think he's in another class as a scorer. I definitely think Monk can be a good scorer in the NBA, but he needs a team that's willing to overlook his defensive deficiencies (which there are quite a few), he is not much of a creator with the ball in his hands, and will need to be run off screens the entire game to get shots. Monk made 20% of his shots at the rim and about 50% of those were assisted. 26% of Donovan Mitchell's offense was at the rim and 20% of those baskets were assisted. Monk isn't the creator that Mitchell is.

I guess you can run the Richard Hamilton offense with him, but he's likely not going to a Larry Brown team, nor is this the mid 2000's where the game allowed for that type of play.

The team that gets Monk will have to make quite a few concessions for him to work out as an undersized 2 guard.

[Negrodamus]

Additionally, I'm struggling to find a reason to take Fultz or Ball with our pick. I don't think either will be any better than Jawun Evans.

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Evans is the best at getting to the rim on that graph. Is he the best at finishing? No, but he's been carrying OK State this year in scoring. On a team like Philly, his purpose is to be another penetrator and use his 43% AST% to hit the open man for three. Either that or hit the open 3 himself. Is size a factor? Sure, but his 6'4 wingspan is the same as Kyrie Irving when he was coming into the league (Evan's is maybe an inch and a half shorter than Irving).

If we're doing the non defense point guard, why not just move back into the first round and grab Evans later on?

[HotelVitale]

I actually don't think he's in another class as a scorer. I definitely think Monk can be a good scorer in the NBA, but he needs a team that's willing to overlook his defensive deficiencies (which there are quite a few), he is not much of a creator with the ball in his hands, and will need to be run off screens the entire game to get shots. Monk made 20% of his shots at the rim and about 50% of those were assisted. 26% of Donovan Mitchell's offense was at the rim and 20% of those baskets were assisted. Monk isn't the creator that Mitchell is. .

Yeah, that's in college. Monk's got a NBA-ready shot and an array of stepback/sidestep moves that are pretty sizzling, plus fairly elite leaping/body control athleticism. Mitchell's a pretty good shooter with a good IQ who competes, and he'll be a solid athlete too. (Also, every team runs screens all the time in every NBA game, it's not an outdated early 2000s offensive scheme; and Monk is a great 3pt shooter with great range so would score most frequently from deep).

Also, what's giving you the impression Monk's an epically bad defender? To my eyes he was somewhat lazy and will be a little undersized in the NBA, but he's also got decent tools and I don't see him as a terrible defender. I only saw a few games though--is there an argument I'm missing that he's severely compromised on that end of the court?

[76ciology]

Game nowadays. Length + Athleticism > Strength. Thus, Isaac's lack of strength shouldnt be an issue.

I mean, we haven't heard much about Ingram's lack of strength being an issue. ..or Porz. Even if Jah keeps bulldozing whenever he meets him in the paint

Defense nowadays is heavy team based that as long as you can cover space (rotate), you're fine.