Around the NBA, 2016-17 Season thread

[Prokorov]

We'll see with Lonzo. I don't see anything in his offensive game that wows me, like I did in other superstar players in college.

have you watched him much? not sure how you wouldnt be wowed.

I admit, I dont watch a lot of college basketball, being from out of USA and all. But this years draft and NCAA March Madness got me interested (Mainly because of South Carolina cindarella story with Estonian freshman starting for them, Maik Kotsar.) and I dug a bit deeper and have seen and "scouted" most prospects.

What really bother me about Lonzo and makes me doubt he will fully translate to the NBA is his shooting motion. He got a horrible hitch in his shooting motion and that being quite slow and low, will probably be quite easy to block by the NBA talent. And to top it off, when he played against comparable talent in Kentucky, he GOT KILLED by DeAaron Fox and Malik Monk. There might have been some other factors to it, but that is crazy.
But we will see.

Dont make the mistake of being swayed by what happens in the NCAA tournament. Kevin Durant got ousted early and looked bad. Allen iverson got shut down by carmello traviaso. Westbrook and Harden did really poorly. Shaq lost to a lower seed at LSU. John Wall/Cousins/Bledsoe/pat patterson were on the same team that lost in the second round.

klay thompson, paul george, and damian lillard didnt even make the NCAA tournament.

Does Ball have a weird shot? yes. but so did reggie miller. Ball has size, lift, and the result is obviously great. id disagree he doesnt have a quick release. fast forward to the 10 minute mark in the scouting video above. it lists quick release as a stength and shows how quick he can get it off when he needs to.

Balls floor is a fringe all-star. his ceiling is a top 5 player. he does everything well and does more then 1 thing at an elite level. on top of that he has all the intagable things like a high bbiq, being unselfish, and being clutch late in games.

[Prokorov]

His defense was a lot worse and his team success was awful for their talent level. I don't really consider that on par with his MVP season. His scoring was also down and he wasn't taking games over late.

That year he was the best defensive player in the NBA and his team was challenging the Lakers for most consecutive wins of all time.

Apples and oranges. The warriors are coming off back to back 105+ game seasons. both of those seasons they lost key players to injury. this season was about keeping those other guys healthy so that lebron didnt have to do so much by himself this time around. thats why the regular season wins werent there. hell they rested everyone while controlling their fate for the #1 seed. shows how little they cared about the regular season.

Obviously this is nit picking. He's still the best player in the NBA and had an amazing season. I'm just saying that I'm starting to see signs of him slowing down.

He hasn't been playing well in the playoffs either. He's barely beating a terrible team and last game he nearly had a quadruple double.

how can you say "he hasnt been playing well in the playoffs" in the same breath as saying he nearly posted a quadruple double?

they are up 2-0 in the series

Lebron:
32/13/6/3/1 in game 1
25/10/7/4/4 in game 2

im not sure how thats not playing well. i think you are like you said really nit picking.

lebron is still the best player in the league. he may be declining but he will still be near where he is now for another year or two. and thats why boston needs to look another 2 years or so down the road and not blow a chance at superstars on rookie scale deals in order to lose to the cavs/warriors/raps/wizards as pretenders

[Prokorov]

Even though they lost last night, man The Greek Freak is looking frightening. Some of those attacks to the rim last night were brutal. If his jumpshot manages to develop god help the league, there won't be a player that can defend him.

Makes you think about the way Milwaukee has drafted these past few years:

Giannis - raw, risky
Parker - arguably best in class
Maker - raw, risky

Their riskiest draft picks look like they might pay off the most.

When it pertains to the Nets, Poppovich is someone who preaches being risk averse (especially when it comes to the draft), and is quoted as saying in a speech to NBA execs "the guy you fall in love with that has potential is the guy who's gonna get you fired". I doubt RC Buford would make the picks Milwaukee made, and I wonder how this perspective will influence Sean Marks.

Obviously, Marks has invested heavily in scouting and will rely on his team, but would they deem a player like Jonathan Jeanne too risky to select?

Watch on YouTube

You need to be careful... if they didnt hit on giannis they would be the lotto team that wasted a pick on maker who may be alot older then he says and parker who cant stay healthy. instead giannis is a stud and the narrative changes to maker being a potential running mate and D anchor and just wait til parker is back.

dont forget Buford is the guy that drafted kawaii leonard/Splitter/Dragic/George Hill/Mahinmi/Barbosa/Scola/Parker/Manu without a single pick in the lottery and had those guys in the late 20s or second round.

I think Bufords track record speaks to a long tenure of solid talent evaluation while the bucks kind of screams "man we liked this giannis guy but never expected this!'

[Antti22]

have you watched him much? not sure how you wouldnt be wowed.

I admit, I dont watch a lot of college basketball, being from out of USA and all. But this years draft and NCAA March Madness got me interested (Mainly because of South Carolina cindarella story with Estonian freshman starting for them, Maik Kotsar.) and I dug a bit deeper and have seen and "scouted" most prospects.

What really bother me about Lonzo and makes me doubt he will fully translate to the NBA is his shooting motion. He got a horrible hitch in his shooting motion and that being quite slow and low, will probably be quite easy to block by the NBA talent. And to top it off, when he played against comparable talent in Kentucky, he GOT KILLED by DeAaron Fox and Malik Monk. There might have been some other factors to it, but that is crazy.
But we will see.

Dont make the mistake of being swayed by what happens in the NCAA tournament. Kevin Durant got ousted early and looked bad. Allen iverson got shut down by carmello traviaso. Westbrook and Harden did really poorly. Shaq lost to a lower seed at LSU. John Wall/Cousins/Bledsoe/pat patterson were on the same team that lost in the second round.

klay thompson, paul george, and damian lillard didnt even make the NCAA tournament.

Does Ball have a weird shot? yes. but so did reggie miller. Ball has size, lift, and the result is obviously great. id disagree he doesnt have a quick release. fast forward to the 10 minute mark in the scouting video above. it lists quick release as a stength and shows how quick he can get it off when he needs to.

Balls floor is a fringe all-star. his ceiling is a top 5 player. he does everything well and does more then 1 thing at an elite level. on top of that he has all the intagable things like a high bbiq, being unselfish, and being clutch late in games.

I totally understand your viewpoint. But from what ive seen, I dont necessarily agree with you. But I will quote you on that last sentence in 5 years, if I was right .

Scouting videos all have different conclusions, I dont pay much attention to those, rather try to make own assesments based on footage. He will be a top 3 pick for sure, but we will see if he will pan out.

[Prokorov]

I totally understand your viewpoint. But from what ive seen, I dont necessarily agree with you. But I will quote you on that last sentence in 5 years, if I was right .

Scouting videos all have different conclusions, I dont pay much attention to those, rather try to make own assesments based on footage. He will be a top 3 pick for sure, but we will see if he will pan out.

I agree on scouting videos... i mean whose highlight videos dont look good? my point about the video was more to show you he does have a super quick release, which IS something you can tell from a scouting video.

My suggestion to you would be to watch more of his games. i agree thats a better way to judge, but you are basically judging him off a 2 or 3 game sample size and ignoring the other 30-35 games.

Forget the scouting film:

-He led the NCAA in assists with 7.6 per game
-He averaged 6 rebounds per game
-He scored 15 points a game while only taking 9 shots a game
-42% from three on 200 attempts
-25 PER and 67 TS% (1st among gaurds by a huge margin, 2nd among players from major conferences)
-2 steals per game, 1 block per game, +13 BPM
-2 game winning shots and several more late game daggers.

He doesnt just look good in his scouting video.. he also put up the numbers, led his team to a 30+ win seasons, his measurables are all great (height, wingspand, standing reach, verticle), and he jumps out at you if you watch his games (more then just 2 or 3).

Which is why you really here no criticism about him other then stuff about his dad being a distraction. I mean:

-He has great size
-He has great athleticism
-He has great ball handling (8 assists vs 2 turnovers at 19 years old)
-He has great shooting (42% from three on 200 attempts and an unreal 67 TS%)
-He has rebounding (6 rebs per game #1 among PGs in NCAA)

you really have to try and knock him... all those positives and only negatives are a bad game vs. kentucky in the tournament and a funky shooting motion

[Antti22]

You obviously know more about him and/or have bought more into the hype. I kinda hope you are right and that his shooting motion will not be a problem. I remain skeptical until I see him play against NBA talent and good defenders.
If he fulfills his hype, he will be great addition to the NBA and fun to watch.

[Paradise]

Even though they lost last night, man The Greek Freak is looking frightening. Some of those attacks to the rim last night were brutal. If his jumpshot manages to develop god help the league, there won't be a player that can defend him.

Makes you think about the way Milwaukee has drafted these past few years:

Giannis - raw, risky
Parker - arguably best in class
Maker - raw, risky

Their riskiest draft picks look like they might pay off the most.

When it pertains to the Nets, Poppovich is someone who preaches being risk averse (especially when it comes to the draft), and is quoted as saying in a speech to NBA execs "the guy you fall in love with that has potential is the guy who's gonna get you fired". I doubt RC Buford would make the picks Milwaukee made, and I wonder how this perspective will influence Sean Marks.

Obviously, Marks has invested heavily in scouting and will rely on his team, but would they deem a player like Jonathan Jeanne too risky to select?

Watch on YouTube

You need to be careful... if they didnt hit on giannis they would be the lotto team that wasted a pick on maker who may be alot older then he says and parker who cant stay healthy. instead giannis is a stud and the narrative changes to maker being a potential running mate and D anchor and just wait til parker is back.

dont forget Buford is the guy that drafted kawaii leonard/Splitter/Dragic/George Hill/Mahinmi/Barbosa/Scola/Parker/Manu without a single pick in the lottery and had those guys in the late 20s or second round.

I think Bufords track record speaks to a long tenure of solid talent evaluation while the bucks kind of screams "man we liked this giannis guy but never expected this!'

Yeah, I would say Denver knew more about European scouting than Milwaukee. Jokic, Nurkic, Hernangomez all non-lottery picks. The Bucks got lucky. I remember Giannis being mocked in the range of 20-30. His combine measurements helped increase his stock but most people thought it was a reach expect for some hardcore Europe fans.


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[MrDollarBills]

Yeah, writing them off is a bit much. They aren't in a good spot at all getting beaten twice at home but I've seen crazier things. the idea that they can steal one in Chicago and then win out in the home games isn't far fetched, but is a tall order especially since they really don't have much offensively when you take the ball out of IT's hands.

you can say the same about the bulls when you take it out of butlers hands. thomas is still far and away the best scorer in this series. bulls have shot way over their heads. boston has played really poorly and has the obvious distractions. im not willing to start writing boston off unless they come back home down 3-1

Even though they lost last night, man The Greek Freak is looking frightening. Some of those attacks to the rim last night were brutal. If his jumpshot manages to develop god help the league, there won't be a player that can defend him.

yeah, he looks like he could be the best player in the league within 5 years. put 3 shooters and a defenive anchor(maker might be that guy) with him and that is scary.

Jason Kidd's nightly glass of scotch goes down a lot smoother knowing that he'll be coaching up a frickin generational talent for the foreseeable future.

[MrDollarBills]

Even though they lost last night, man The Greek Freak is looking frightening. Some of those attacks to the rim last night were brutal. If his jumpshot manages to develop god help the league, there won't be a player that can defend him.

Makes you think about the way Milwaukee has drafted these past few years:

Giannis - raw, risky
Parker - arguably best in class
Maker - raw, risky

Their riskiest draft picks look like they might pay off the most.

When it pertains to the Nets, Poppovich is someone who preaches being risk averse (especially when it comes to the draft), and is quoted as saying in a speech to NBA execs "the guy you fall in love with that has potential is the guy who's gonna get you fired". I doubt RC Buford would make the picks Milwaukee made, and I wonder how this perspective will influence Sean Marks.

Obviously, Marks has invested heavily in scouting and will rely on his team, but would they deem a player like Jonathan Jeanne too risky to select?

Watch on YouTube

Technically speaking, Caris LeVert could be deemed a risk pick by Marks.

[shakendfries]

Even though they lost last night, man The Greek Freak is looking frightening. Some of those attacks to the rim last night were brutal. If his jumpshot manages to develop god help the league, there won't be a player that can defend him.

Makes you think about the way Milwaukee has drafted these past few years:

Giannis - raw, risky
Parker - arguably best in class
Maker - raw, risky

Their riskiest draft picks look like they might pay off the most.

When it pertains to the Nets, Poppovich is someone who preaches being risk averse (especially when it comes to the draft), and is quoted as saying in a speech to NBA execs "the guy you fall in love with that has potential is the guy who's gonna get you fired". I doubt RC Buford would make the picks Milwaukee made, and I wonder how this perspective will influence Sean Marks.

Obviously, Marks has invested heavily in scouting and will rely on his team, but would they deem a player like Jonathan Jeanne too risky to select?

Watch on YouTube

Technically speaking, Caris LeVert could be deemed a risk pick by Marks.

I understand your perspective given Caris' injury history. I personally don't think LeVert qualifies as a Maker or Giannis-type risk since we've seen Caris play the better part of 4 years at Michigan and understood he had an NBA skill-set from the jump.

Giannis & Maker came out of nowhere. All the draft buzz around Maker was that he crossed up Bam Adebayo on his hoopsmixtape but he is definitely lying about his age. A Giannis-type risk for Marks would be to draft George Lucas De Paula and having him transform into an All-Star in 3 seasons.

Watch on YouTube

There's no way in hell RC Buford would make that move

[Prokorov]

Makes you think about the way Milwaukee has drafted these past few years:

Giannis - raw, risky
Parker - arguably best in class
Maker - raw, risky

Their riskiest draft picks look like they might pay off the most.

When it pertains to the Nets, Poppovich is someone who preaches being risk averse (especially when it comes to the draft), and is quoted as saying in a speech to NBA execs "the guy you fall in love with that has potential is the guy who's gonna get you fired". I doubt RC Buford would make the picks Milwaukee made, and I wonder how this perspective will influence Sean Marks.

Obviously, Marks has invested heavily in scouting and will rely on his team, but would they deem a player like Jonathan Jeanne too risky to select?

Watch on YouTube

Technically speaking, Caris LeVert could be deemed a risk pick by Marks.

I understand your perspective given Caris' injury history. I personally don't think LeVert qualifies as a Maker or Giannis-type risk since we've seen Caris play the better part of 4 years at Michigan and understood he had an NBA skill-set from the jump.

Giannis & Maker came out of nowhere. All the draft buzz around Maker was that he crossed up Bam Adebayo on his hoopsmixtape but he is definitely lying about his age. A Giannis-type risk for Marks would be to draft George Lucas De Paula and having him transform into an All-Star in 3 seasons.

Watch on YouTube

There's no way in hell RC Buford would make that move

your not a risk at the #15 pick.... thats when talent start to diminish in most drafts and you just hope for a rotation guy or fringe starter. upside is what you start looking at.

a risk is like... having a top 5 pick and taking a freak raw athlete and hopinh he develops skill... like if giannis went #4 overall that could be considered a risk.

[vincecarter4pres]

Watch on YouTube

There's no way in hell RC Buford would make that move

I agree, his mediocre vert and suspect handle would relegate him to a spot up shooter and finisher in transition.

[vincecarter4pres]

Gortat is eating Howard's lunch.

[shakendfries]

your not a risk at the #15 pick.... thats when talent start to diminish in most drafts and you just hope for a rotation guy or fringe starter. upside is what you start looking at.

a risk is like... having a top 5 pick and taking a freak raw athlete and hopinh he develops skill... like if giannis went #4 overall that could be considered a risk.

Watch on YouTube

[vincecarter4pres]

Hardaway is putting in some work.

[Paradise]

Gortat is eating Howard's lunch.

Imagine if we had Howard for the last four years. Yikes.


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[Prokorov]

Gortat is eating Howard's lunch.

Imagine if we had Howard for the last four years. Yikes.


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we would have been better every single year. especially early on

[NyCeEvO]

I also don't think Lebron is insanely good anymore. This season was his the first where I started to see him decline.

Didn't Bron just post his best statistical season? Like better than his MVP season? I understand he scored less (since took less shots per game), but isn't he currently averaging career highs by every other metric?

I'm not taking anything away from LBJ.

He's phenomenal. He's on his way to putting up GOAT career numbers and when it's all said and done, the only case that people can really make against him not being the GOAT will be due to narrative, not numbers (similar to what people do in MJ vs Kareem debates).

With that said, this is why I've been growing more and more disenchanted box score stats over this year in particular. It is true that he averaged career high averages this year, but it's not because he's getting better.

He's being used in a particular way that coincides with a greater production of box score numbers.

A combination of the league-wide (as well as as the Cavs) uptick in pace, LBJ's increase in MPG, him having even more sharpshooters than probably ever before, and (most importantly) the lack of a backup PG which has caused him to play a lot more at PG is the reason for this.

LBJ didn't get better. He was just used more at PG and played more minutes. But it's still funny that LBJ not getting better still leaves him as the best player in the league with the exception of 2015-16 Steph.

[MrDollarBills]

Gortat is eating Howard's lunch.

Imagine if we had Howard for the last four years. Yikes.


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we would have been better every single year. especially early on

Defensively for sure.

Overall, the toxic dog culture would not have done him any favors.

[MrDollarBills]

I also don't think Lebron is insanely good anymore. This season was his the first where I started to see him decline.

Didn't Bron just post his best statistical season? Like better than his MVP season? I understand he scored less (since took less shots per game), but isn't he currently averaging career highs by every other metric?

I'm not taking anything away from LBJ.

He's phenomenal. He's on his way to putting up GOAT career numbers and when it's all said and done, the only case that people can really make against him not being the GOAT will be due to narrative, not numbers (similar to what people do in MJ vs Kareem debates).

With that said, this is why I've been growing more and more disenchanted box score stats over this year in particular. It is true that he averaged career high averages this year, but it's not because he's getting better.

He's being used in a particular way that coincides with a greater production of box score numbers.

A combination of the league-wide (as well as as the Cavs) uptick in pace, LBJ's increase in MPG, him having even more sharpshooters than probably ever before, and (most importantly) the lack of a backup PG which has caused him to play a lot more at PG is the reason for this.

LBJ didn't get better. He was just used more at PG and played more minutes. But it's still funny that LBJ not getting better still leaves him as the best player in the league with the exception of 2015-16 Steph.

Lebron is the greatest of his generation. Greatest of all time is fairly a silly argument. Kareem statistically could be considered the GOAT. But Jordan was the far more skilled player.

When it comes to Jordan versus Lebron, unless you're going to use rings against Lebron I don't think the argument is that cut and dry. They have two different playing styles. What makes Jordan so great is that he could have dominated in any era, in fact if he played in this era where play is a lot softer he'd have been unstoppable.