WCQF | (3) Houston Rockets vs Oklahoma City Thunder (6) | HOU 2-1

[Tritodian]

https://streamable.com/08s6v#

Westbrook has a career 39% 3PT shooter in McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 from 3PT on the night and still didn't pass the ball to him in the 4Q even though he was open multiple times. Enough with the pathetic excuses; this is just bad basketball IQ.

[The_Hater]

OKC w/o Westbrick FG% 42.5 eFG% 47.2 TS% 51.4
Westbrick FG% 39.5 eFG% 41.9 TS% 50.1

OKC with RWB on the floor: 42 minutes + 11

OKC with RWB on the bench: 6 minutes -15

Kind of costly in a game they lost by 4.

[Hornet Mania]

So many people are arguing that Russ' supporting cast is actually decent and he simply doesn't get them involved.

You think Steven Adams is a good player because of his DEFENSE. You think Andre Roberson is a decent player because of his DEFENSE. Russ' supporting cast is absolute trash offensively. They ranked dead last in three point percentage, they can't stretch the floor at all for Russ to operate. Their only playmaker outside of Russ is Oladipo, and he isn't a very good one.

Harden's cast is loaded with offensive talent. Great shooters all around. Tailor made system. Not the case with Russ. It's not even just the lack of offensive talent around him, it'a terrible fit. Westbrook is a penetrator that doesn't have anyone spacing the floor for him. And the only player that he can effectively play the two man game is Kanter, who gets limited minutes due to his terrible defense.

You hit the nail right on the head.

Some people think passing the ball to non-scorers is going to magically make them competent, but that's not how reality works. ESPECIALLY in the playoffs, where teams give guys wide-open shots and dare them to prove they can make it. Check how Marcus Smart is being guarded by the Bulls, every one of OKC's "shooters" would receive the same treatment if OKC wasted time swinging the ball around to sprinkle magic offense dust on everyone.

Kobe got the same crap arguments thrown against him in 06 for not spoon-feeding Smush/Kwame/Walton/Turiaf. Westbrook's cast is even worse offensively (at least Kobe had Odom), but luckily much better on defense.

OKC does not lose because of Westbrook. The only reason they win is because of Westbrook. "Hero ball" accusations are absolute nonsense. It's either play like this or win 35 games. But hey, at least they'd win 35 games playing team ball, right?

[The_Hater]

So many people are arguing that Russ' supporting cast is actually decent and he simply doesn't get them involved.

You think Steven Adams is a good player because of his DEFENSE. You think Andre Roberson is a decent player because of his DEFENSE. Russ' supporting cast is absolute trash offensively. They ranked dead last in three point percentage, they can't stretch the floor at all for Russ to operate. Their only playmaker outside of Russ is Oladipo, and he isn't a very good one.

Harden's cast is loaded with offensive talent. Great shooters all around. Tailor made system. Not the case with Russ. It's not even just the lack of offensive talent around him, it'a terrible fit. Westbrook is a penetrator that doesn't have anyone spacing the floor for him. And the only player that he can effectively play the two man game is Kanter, who gets limited minutes due to his terrible defense.

Thank you. Saved me so much typing.

Some people think passing the ball to non-scorers is going to magically make them competent, but that's not how reality works. Kobe got the same crap arguments thrown against him in 06 for not spoon-feeding Smush/Kwame/Walton/Turiaf. Westbrook's cast is even worse offensively (at least Kobe had Odom), but luckily much better on defense.

OKC does not lose because of Westbrook. The only reason they win is because of Westbrook. "Hero ball" accusations are absolute nonsense. It's either play like this or win 35 games.

Yup. OKC Was built on defense because they already had RWB And Durant. Take one of the top 3-4 offensive players in the league away and it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't have a lot of scoring left. Kanter can score too but the defense goes down the tank when he plays too many minutes.

[Tritodian]

OKC w/o Westbrick FG% 42.5 eFG% 47.2 TS% 51.4
Westbrick FG% 39.5 eFG% 41.9 TS% 50.1

OKC with RWB on the floor: 42 minutes + 11

OKC with RWB on the bench: 6 minutes -15

Kind of costly in a game they lost by 4.

You know when they were leading HOU? When Westbrook was actually involving his teammates and making good plays. Westbrook already had 10 assists by the first half. He was having a great game up until 3Q, and then 4Q happened where he went 4/18 FG while missing out on open shooters such as McDermott multiple times. That was the turning point for the OKC.

[Ben-N1ce]

Westbrook went like 2/12 the last 6 minutes. I doubt his teammates could do that.

[Tritodian]

So many people are arguing that Russ' supporting cast is actually decent and he simply doesn't get them involved.

You think Steven Adams is a good player because of his DEFENSE. You think Andre Roberson is a decent player because of his DEFENSE. Russ' supporting cast is absolute trash offensively. They ranked dead last in three point percentage, they can't stretch the floor at all for Russ to operate. Their only playmaker outside of Russ is Oladipo, and he isn't a very good one.

Harden's cast is loaded with offensive talent. Great shooters all around. Tailor made system. Not the case with Russ. It's not even just the lack of offensive talent around him, it'a terrible fit. Westbrook is a penetrator that doesn't have anyone spacing the floor for him. And the only player that he can effectively play the two man game is Kanter, who gets limited minutes due to his terrible defense.

Adams and Olapdiop get paid more and were ranked higher than any other player on the Rockets team before the season started. The problem is their games have not improved and remained stagnant throughout the whole season. And you can't expect them to further develop their game when they even barely get to touch the ball.

Ryan Anderson was 0/7 from the three the last night and Harden still passed the ball to him regardless. Westbrook had McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 3PT in that same game only to be completely ignored and iced out by Westbrook's myopia in the 4Q. See the difference here? Sometimes you have to move the ball around just to have your teammates engaged in the flow of the game. Too often Westbrook just completely messes up the flow of his teammates (which leads to the poor performance without him), and this is the primary reason why Durant left him in the first place.

[Johnny Firpo]

Has to be one of the worst 50 point games ever by Westbrook. Just a completely stubborn, utterly self-destructive performance.

[E-Balla]

uh what? WB has a higher usage rate than Harden...

Usage rate means absolutely nothing in terms of time spent with the ball in their hands. It just means Westbrook ends more possessions. Westbrook was only 3rd in time of possession per game under Wall and Harden this year.

According to NBA.com, all 3 (Westbrook, Harden, Walls) have the same time (8.9) per possession during Regular Season with Westbrook ranking 1st follows by Wall then Harden.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Please back up your claim with fact.

My numbers might've been outdated then and they're all even in time of possession. Either way there's no way Westbrook is more of a ballhog than the other two when they all have the ball the same amount of time. Its a dumb criticism to say Westbrook's support sucks because he has the ball more than Harden when they have the ball the exact same amount of time.

[E-Balla]

https://streamable.com/08s6v#

Westbrook has a career 39% 3PT shooter in McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 from 3PT on the night and still didn't pass the ball to him in the 4Q even though he was open multiple times. Enough with the pathetic excuses; this is just bad basketball IQ.

The bad IQ is being shown by anyone who thinks any of those plays but the first one is bad. The 2nd play Harden was close enough to close out and Westbrook got a mismatch (the bad play was settling for a jumper), the 3rd play Westbrook was in the middle of shooting (and it was a good look) when Doug finally got open, the 4th play was an uncalled foul (plus Jerian can't shoot).

[Tritodian]

Usage rate means absolutely nothing in terms of time spent with the ball in their hands. It just means Westbrook ends more possessions. Westbrook was only 3rd in time of possession per game under Wall and Harden this year.

According to NBA.com, all 3 (Westbrook, Harden, Walls) have the same time (8.9) per possession during Regular Season with Westbrook ranking 1st follows by Wall then Harden.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Please back up your claim with fact.

My numbers might've been outdated then and they're all even in time of possession. Either way there's no way Westbrook is more of a ballhog than the other two when they all have the ball the same amount of time. Its a dumb criticism to say Westbrook's support sucks because he has the ball more than Harden when they have the ball the exact same amount of time.

In that same amount of time, Harden passes more and shoots less, and has way less usage rates.

https://streamable.com/08s6v#

Westbrook has a career 39% 3PT shooter in McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 from 3PT on the night and still didn't pass the ball to him in the 4Q even though he was open multiple times. Enough with the pathetic excuses; this is just bad basketball IQ.

The bad IQ is being shown by anyone who thinks any of those plays but the first one is bad. The 2nd play Harden was close enough to close out and Westbrook got a mismatch (the bad play was settling for a jumper), the 3rd play Westbrook was in the middle of shooting (and it was a good look) when Doug finally got open, the 4th play was an uncalled foul (plus Jerian can't shoot).

Harden wasn't even close on the 2nd one and he's not a good defender to begin with, since when Harden is the reason to not pass the ball to the man he's guarding? On the 3rd one, if it was CP3 or Harden they would have found the open man while settling in the shooting motion, and your excuse just further illustrates Westbrook's myopic vision.

[Impuniti]

So many people are arguing that Russ' supporting cast is actually decent and he simply doesn't get them involved.

You think Steven Adams is a good player because of his DEFENSE. You think Andre Roberson is a decent player because of his DEFENSE. Russ' supporting cast is absolute trash offensively. They ranked dead last in three point percentage, they can't stretch the floor at all for Russ to operate. Their only playmaker outside of Russ is Oladipo, and he isn't a very good one.

Harden's cast is loaded with offensive talent. Great shooters all around. Tailor made system. Not the case with Russ. It's not even just the lack of offensive talent around him, it'a terrible fit. Westbrook is a penetrator that doesn't have anyone spacing the floor for him. And the only player that he can effectively play the two man game is Kanter, who gets limited minutes due to his terrible defense.

Adams and Olapdiop gets paid more and was ranked higher than any other player on the Rockets team before the season started. The problem is their games have not improved and remained stagnant throughout the whole season. And you can't expect them to further develop their game when they even barely get to touch the ball.

Ryan Anderson was 0/7 from the three the last night and Harden still passed the ball to him regardless. Westbrook had McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 3PT in that same game only to be completely ignored and iced out by Westbrook's myopia in the 4Q. See the difference here? Sometimes you have to move the ball around just to have your teammates engaged in the flow of the game. Too often Westbrook just completely messes up the flow of his teammates (which leads to the poor performance without him), and this is the primary reason why Durant left him in the first place.

They didn't stay stagnant, they are worse this year with the way WB plays.

[E-Balla]

In the same time amount of possessions, Harden passes more and shoots less, and has way less usage rates.

So before the problem was he had the ball too much but now when presented with numbers its that he doesn't pass enough? Ok.

OKC (removing Russ from the equation) is 30.9% on wide open 3s. That's a 46.4 eFG%. Russ has a 47.6 eFG%.

HOU (removing Harden) is 38.3% on wide open 3s. That's a 57.5 eFG%. Harden has a 52.5 eFG%.

Ever think maybe Harden passes more because its a better shot when you have good players and Russ doesn't because his average shot is more efficient than completely uncontested looks by his teammates? At a certain point you have to admit those shots Russ took were bad but his only other decision was another bad shot.

Harden wasn't even close on the 2nd one and he's not a good defender to begin with, since when Harden is the reason to not pass the ball to the man he's guarding? On the 3rd one, if it was CP3 or Harden they would have found the open man while settling in the shooting motion, and your excuse just further illustrates Westbrook's myopic vision.

Harden was definitely close enough to close out. That's not a smart play to make the pass. The smart play was to drive though and he took a jumper for no good reason. Its not a good play (its a bad play) but not because he didn't pass to Doug. And Harden isn't a good defender but its not hard to close out on a shooter and I'd be surprised if Doug scored from that position. And in the 3rd one Russ had an open look. We kill Rondo here on RealGM for passing up open looks like that all the damn time but now we're killing Russ for it? Let's not act like everyone isn't taught to take that shot growing up. Its fundamental basketball that you take the open shot and don't over pass unless its to a better shot. If Russ hits that no way its on that video and that's a shot he probably hits 45-50% of the time.

[Tritodian]

In the same time amount of possessions, Harden passes more and shoots less, and has way less usage rates.

So before the problem was he had the ball too much but now when presented with numbers its that he doesn't pass enough? Ok.

OKC (removing Russ from the equation) is 30.9% on wide open 3s. That's a 46.4 eFG%. Russ has a 47.6 eFG%.

HOU (removing Harden) is 38.3% on wide open 3s. That's a 57.5 eFG%. Harden has a 52.5 eFG%.

Ever think maybe Harden passes more because its a better shot when you have good players and Russ doesn't because his average shot is more efficient than completely uncontested looks by his teammates? At a certain point you have to admit those shots Russ took were bad but his only other decision was another bad shot.

Read my previous post. Adams and Oladipo get paid more than any other player on the Rockets team, and was ranked higher than any role player Houston has before the season began. Why haven't they developed their game more? Is is a coincidence that multiple guys who were considered to be quality players before the season all have remained stagnant or fell off while playing with Westbrook? The problem is you can't expect them to just shoot lights out if they are not in the flow of the game in the first place.

Have you ever played a pick game with an extreme ball-hog? It impacts your game very negatively, and you don't play as well on the few occasions you get to touch the ball, because you've just spent the last 30 minutes watching one guy on your team try to do everything. Everybody goes cold in an environment like that, and that's what's happening to the OKC's role players right now. So the argument that Westbrook's supporting cast suck is kinda like self-fulfilling prophecy. No sh*t, that's what happens when you play with Westbrook. See how efficient Durant has become since he left OKC.

Harden was definitely close enough to close out. That's not a smart play to make the pass. The smart play was to drive though and he took a jumper for no good reason. Its not a good play (its a bad play) but not because he didn't pass to Doug. And Harden isn't a good defender but its not hard to close out on a shooter and I'd be surprised if Doug scored from that position. And in the 3rd one Russ had an open look. We kill Rondo here on RealGM for passing up open looks like that all the damn time but now we're killing Russ for it? Let's not act like everyone isn't taught to take that shot growing up. Its fundamental basketball that you take the open shot and don't over pass unless its to a better shot. If Russ hits that no way its on that video and that's a shot he probably hits 45-50% of the time.

Nothing to argue here if you can't see Westbrook completely missing out on open shooters. No wonder you like Westbrook; you're just as myopic in your vision.

[Freefloater]

5 : 1 ON THE YEAR!

harden would took WB supporting cast to WCF...he aready did it...

[Freefloater]

35 points on 7 shots made, 20 free throw attempts to 17 field goal attempts. The quintessential James Harden game.

WB missed more shots than Harden took...quintessential WB game

[Slava]

35 points on 7 shots made, 20 free throw attempts to 17 field goal attempts. The quintessential James Harden game.

WB missed more shots than Harden took...quintessential WB game

Are you trying to troll a mod?

[Freefloater]

I didn't get to watch the game but why is Adams only taking 3 shots? You give him a 100 mil contract and he only gets 3 shots? that's ridiculous, meanwhile RW gets 43 shots. Again I didn't see this game, but I'd wanna get Adams more involved if I was OKC.

you must have not watched the game? if you did you would have known Adams was triple teamed and Shaq was guarding him

[Freefloater]

People just don't want to admit that Harden is much better at making his teammates better.

There's literally NOTHING to support this. Nothing.

It's more like people just don't want to admit that Harden's supporting is FAR better, and we actually do have mountains of evidence to support this.

That's the difference.

Harden won the same number of games Westbrook won last year when his supporting cast were Durant, Ibaka and WAITERS

(Member Waiters? the guy who broke out playing far from Westbrooke )

[mtron929]

The Westbrook being selfish meme isn't being brought up from nowhere. I posted this on another thread, but when Westbrook was playing with Durant, his shots per game was as high as Durant's while being a significantly worse scorer. To me, if you shoot as much as one of the best pure scorers that the NBA has ever seen and do it at a significantly lower percentage, then that means you are selfish. I mean, if I were Westbrook, I would try to get Durant as many shots as possible (certainly more than myself) and concentrate on playing ferocious defense, getting my teammates involved, and playing essentially like a hyper version of CP3. That certainly wasn't the case.