This offseason

[Prokorov]

I agree Lin doesn't post massive numbers, he only cares about winning and that's all he does. I never really bought into the whole "stats over winning basketball" argument. To me the top 5 PGs should be the players most capable of carrying a team to wins

Only CP3 has done nothing but win his entire career. If all we are going by is wins the Robert Horry/Derek Fisher > Kareem/Magic/Bird/Lebron/Wilt/Shaq

The guys in the top 5 ARE guys most capable of carrying teams to wins and jeremy Lin is NOT one of those guys. Lin probably isnt in the top 12-15.

If you want to ignore facts and reality that belongs in the Lin thread not the offseason thread.

I love how anytime a team wins its on lin and anytime they lose its not because of lin. Like how Lin was on charlotte all year and they were like .500, they add courtney lee and go 20-6 or something like that and Lin gets all the credit. then Lin/Lee/Jeferson all leave, charlotte gets worse, and yet thats all because of Lin.

I cant beleive we are going down the Lin > CP3/Lillard/Harden path again... like seriously GTFO with that complete garbage and stop trolling non-lin threads with that trash. go to the delusional lin thread and circle jerk to that there not here

[reelsgm]

No I wasn't trolling, based on how Lin can carry a team and elevate the players around him, I think you gotta put him top5. He's a poor man's Lebron. Look what he did to the Hornets last year with less health and talent than they had this year. Their over-under was 30, he carried them to 48 wins. Back down to 36 this year. After 29 losses in a row, suddenly he makes the Nets look like a competitive playoff team. I think Lin is that good.

Question is: Could ANY starting level PG lead most talent-less (oxymoronic?) team to wins like Lin post ASB? -- Most believe, yes.

But focus on gm 82 a moment. Caveats: 1) One game sample size minimal relevancy, take with grain-of-salt; 2) Bropez also out but many aren't convinced his ability to lead wins anyway.

Fact remains a pre-Lin starting lineup: Dinw,Foye,CLV,RHJ,JHam for Bropez played hard against Bulls A-team but they cooked us all 4 Qs. Bulls even bricked shot-after-shot but we played worse. Bench awful - KJ, IW terrible. Reality-check game, stark difference - a throwback to some "I'm-getting-mine" play of earlier.

Final Bulls game indicated, despite the vaunted "improvement" of development guys -- we're still a hairs away from 12 win abysmal-ness.

Don't know who else/how many others could lead us to Wins but to believe this team's "improvement" without a skilled capable leader at point gets us out of deep cellar -- is pure fantasy.

Ex-NBA commish Stern registers his disapproval of this SAME game today. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/04/26/ex-nba-commissioner-david-stern-players-resting-adam-silver/100923982/

Here we are, the Brooklyn Nets are out of the running. They have the lowest record in the sport. But they have an opportunity to weigh in on the final game with respect to Chicago. And they sit their starters? Really? It's inexcusable in my view...shame on the Brooklyn Nets. They broke the (pact with fans). “I think I'm going to give the Nets the benefit of the doubt that they did it without recognizing what they were doing,” - David Stern

Beyond me why NBA's worst team should attract so much discussion by "sitting starters" ... do they actually think a team that bad not sitting just TWO starters could realistically make a difference as to upend playoff participants?

[Kswiss]

I agree Lin doesn't post massive numbers, he only cares about winning and that's all he does. I never really bought into the whole "stats over winning basketball" argument. To me the top 5 PGs should be the players most capable of carrying a team to wins

Only CP3 has done nothing but win his entire career. If all we are going by is wins the Robert Horry/Derek Fisher > Kareem/Magic/Bird/Lebron/Wilt/Shaq

The guys in the top 5 ARE guys most capable of carrying teams to wins and jeremy Lin is NOT one of those guys. Lin probably isnt in the top 12-15.

If you want to ignore facts and reality that belongs in the Lin thread not the offseason thread.

I love how anytime a team wins its on lin and anytime they lose its not because of lin. Like how Lin was on charlotte all year and they were like .500, they add courtney lee and go 20-6 or something like that and Lin gets all the credit. then Lin/Lee/Jeferson all leave, charlotte gets worse, and yet thats all because of Lin.

I cant beleive we are going down the Lin > CP3/Lillard/Harden path again... like seriously GTFO with that complete garbage and stop trolling non-lin threads with that trash. go to the delusional lin thread and circle jerk to that there not here

Really? I didn't but know you were so informed on Hornets basketball. How's Courtney Lee doing in NY? Is Al Jefferson still in an NBA rotation? Oh they got MKG back, a healthy Zeller, and improvement from Kaminsky, and only lost Lin? Should be an improved team right? That's what a lot of Hornets fans thought. Who was the best player in the playoffs last year for the Hornets? Who carried them to their best wins of the season? You didn't watch Hornets basketball, but I like your confidence in your NBA acumen. Ask a Portland fan, does Lillard play defense? Does he playmake and pass the ball for teammates? Does he lift the overall level of play of the team? You value stats, I value wins. Let's just agree to disagree. Side note: CP3 has only won? Where are his rings? How bout at least a Second round win? I just don't know any more man... I just don't know with you smh

[MrDollarBills]

No I wasn't trolling, based on how Lin can carry a team and elevate the players around him, I think you gotta put him top5. He's a poor man's Lebron. Look what he did to the Hornets last year with less health and talent than they had this year. Their over-under was 30, he carried them to 48 wins. Back down to 36 this year. After 29 losses in a row, suddenly he makes the Nets look like a competitive playoff team. I think Lin is that good.

Question is: Could ANY starting level PG lead most talent-less (oxymoronic?) team to wins like Lin post ASB? -- Most believe, yes.

But focus on gm 82 a moment. Caveats: 1) One game sample size minimal relevancy, take with grain-of-salt; 2) Bropez also out but many aren't convinced his ability to lead wins anyway.

Fact remains a pre-Lin starting lineup: Dinw,Foye,CLV,RHJ,JHam for Bropez played hard against Bulls A-team but they cooked us all 4 Qs. Bulls even bricked shot-after-shot but we played worse. Bench awful - KJ, IW terrible. Reality-check game, stark difference - a throwback to some "I'm-getting-mine" play of earlier.

Final Bulls game indicated, despite the vaunted "improvement" of development guys -- we're still a hairs away from 12 win abysmal-ness.

Don't know who else/how many others could lead us to Wins but to believe this team's "improvement" without a skilled capable leader at point gets us out of deep cellar -- is pure fantasy.

Using game 82, which was basically the first game that the Nets mailed in the entire season, as a barometer for anything is pretty ridiculous. The Nets getting stomped by a focused Bulls team without their two best players proves absolutely nothing about the other guys on this team.

also, to kswiss:

The Nets played a lot better when Lin came back. To say that we were a playoff team though? I don't know about that.

[MrDollarBills]

No I wasn't trolling, based on how Lin can carry a team and elevate the players around him, I think you gotta put him top5. He's a poor man's Lebron. Look what he did to the Hornets last year with less health and talent than they had this year. Their over-under was 30, he carried them to 48 wins. Back down to 36 this year. After 29 losses in a row, suddenly he makes the Nets look like a competitive playoff team. I think Lin is that good.

Question is: Could ANY starting level PG lead most talent-less (oxymoronic?) team to wins like Lin post ASB? -- Most believe, yes.

But focus on gm 82 a moment. Caveats: 1) One game sample size minimal relevancy, take with grain-of-salt; 2) Bropez also out but many aren't convinced his ability to lead wins anyway.

Fact remains a pre-Lin starting lineup: Dinw,Foye,CLV,RHJ,JHam for Bropez played hard against Bulls A-team but they cooked us all 4 Qs. Bulls even bricked shot-after-shot but we played worse. Bench awful - KJ, IW terrible. Reality-check game, stark difference - a throwback to some "I'm-getting-mine" play of earlier.

Final Bulls game indicated, despite the vaunted "improvement" of development guys -- we're still a hairs away from 12 win abysmal-ness.

Don't know who else/how many others could lead us to Wins but to believe this team's "improvement" without a skilled capable leader at point gets us out of deep cellar -- is pure fantasy.

Ex-NBA commish Stern registers his disapproval of this SAME game today. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/04/26/ex-nba-commissioner-david-stern-players-resting-adam-silver/100923982/

Here we are, the Brooklyn Nets are out of the running. They have the lowest record in the sport. But they have an opportunity to weigh in on the final game with respect to Chicago. And they sit their starters? Really? It's inexcusable in my view...shame on the Brooklyn Nets. They broke the (pact with fans). “I think I'm going to give the Nets the benefit of the doubt that they did it without recognizing what they were doing,” - David Stern

Beyond me why NBA's worst team should attract so much discussion by "sitting starters" ... do they actually think a team that bad not sitting just TWO starters could realistically make a difference as to upend playoff participants?

See, I don't like this. Why are we catching hell when you have teams with guys making 25+ million sitting guys who are healthy on saturday night national television games. Lebron, kyrie, Khawi, Steph, Klay KD all have been healthy scratches on ABC's Saturday night game which would not only have been a ratings draw for the company that shelled out millions for the TV rights but for the fans who paid 250+ for tickets to see those guys only to find out that afternoon that dudes were sitting out for no good reason, yet somehow they had the energy to play against some cannon fodder team the night before or after.

David Stern and anyone else who lambasted the Nets are hypocrites. The onus should be on the teams who did that who REALLY hurt the fans and the sport, and not the Nets.

[bws94]

This nets team with chris paul doesnt miss the playoffs. few guys have a bigger impact on winning. we'd be a 45+ win team

CP3 ... well then how 'bout with Jrue Holiday or guys at or below his level?

No Jrue Holiday doesnt change anything and im not convinced he is better then Lin.

but this top 5 PG better then chris paul stuff is just crazy talk.[/quote]

FWIW, Lin was asked who he thought the top PGs were. I think he said Steff, Kyrie, CP3, Lillard, and Westbrook. So, Lin doesn't consider himself in the top 5. I think he just wants to big a strong starter and help his team win. And that's fine by me.

[Prokorov]

I agree Lin doesn't post massive numbers, he only cares about winning and that's all he does. I never really bought into the whole "stats over winning basketball" argument. To me the top 5 PGs should be the players most capable of carrying a team to wins

Only CP3 has done nothing but win his entire career. If all we are going by is wins the Robert Horry/Derek Fisher > Kareem/Magic/Bird/Lebron/Wilt/Shaq

The guys in the top 5 ARE guys most capable of carrying teams to wins and jeremy Lin is NOT one of those guys. Lin probably isnt in the top 12-15.

If you want to ignore facts and reality that belongs in the Lin thread not the offseason thread.

I love how anytime a team wins its on lin and anytime they lose its not because of lin. Like how Lin was on charlotte all year and they were like .500, they add courtney lee and go 20-6 or something like that and Lin gets all the credit. then Lin/Lee/Jeferson all leave, charlotte gets worse, and yet thats all because of Lin.

I cant beleive we are going down the Lin > CP3/Lillard/Harden path again... like seriously GTFO with that complete garbage and stop trolling non-lin threads with that trash. go to the delusional lin thread and circle jerk to that there not here

Really? I didn't but know you were so informed on Hornets basketball. How's Courtney Lee doing in NY? Is Al Jefferson still in an NBA rotation? Oh they got MKG back, a healthy Zeller, and improvement from Kaminsky, and only lost Lin? Should be an improved team right? That's what a lot of Hornets fans thought. Who was the best player in the playoffs last year for the Hornets? Who carried them to their best wins of the season? You didn't watch Hornets basketball, but I like your confidence in your NBA acumen. Ask a Portland fan, does Lillard play defense? Does he playmake and pass the ball for teammates? Does he lift the overall level of play of the team? You value stats, I value wins. Let's just agree to disagree. Side note: CP3 has only won? Where are his rings? How bout at least a Second round win? I just don't know any more man... I just don't know with you smh

They didnt only lose lin. they lost Lee, who they went on a 20-6 run with after being a .500 team.

Lin left the rockets... the very next year without him they went to the conference finals.

either way its hard to take you series when you are comparing average players to hall of famers. CP3 has his teams winning 50+ games every year. where are his rings? same place as barkleys and malones and paytons and durants etc...

There are stats that measure impact on winning. CP3 blows lin out of the water in those

you are delusional.

What exactly where the honets before CP3? and what star did he have there? it was like him tyson chandler and david west. what were the clippers before CP3? a laughing stock.

[MrDollarBills]

This nets team with chris paul doesnt miss the playoffs. few guys have a bigger impact on winning. we'd be a 45+ win team

CP3 ... well then how 'bout with Jrue Holiday or guys at or below his level?

No Jrue Holiday doesnt change anything and im not convinced he is better then Lin.

but this top 5 PG better then chris paul stuff is just crazy talk.

FWIW, Lin was asked who he thought the top PGs were. I think he said Steff, Kyrie, CP3, Lillard, and Westbrook. So, Lin doesn't consider himself in the top 5. I think he just wants to big a strong starter and help his team win. And that's fine by me.[/quote]

That's because Lin has humility.

Knowing that you can compete with these guys while acknowledging how talented your peers are says a lot about the guy IMO.

[bws94]

I agree Lin doesn't post massive numbers, he only cares about winning and that's all he does. I never really bought into the whole "stats over winning basketball" argument. To me the top 5 PGs should be the players most capable of carrying a team to wins

Only CP3 has done nothing but win his entire career. If all we are going by is wins the Robert Horry/Derek Fisher > Kareem/Magic/Bird/Lebron/Wilt/Shaq

The guys in the top 5 ARE guys most capable of carrying teams to wins and jeremy Lin is NOT one of those guys. Lin probably isnt in the top 12-15.

If you want to ignore facts and reality that belongs in the Lin thread not the offseason thread.

I love how anytime a team wins its on lin and anytime they lose its not because of lin. Like how Lin was on charlotte all year and they were like .500, they add courtney lee and go 20-6 or something like that and Lin gets all the credit. then Lin/Lee/Jeferson all leave, charlotte gets worse, and yet thats all because of Lin.

I cant beleive we are going down the Lin > CP3/Lillard/Harden path again... like seriously GTFO with that complete garbage and stop trolling non-lin threads with that trash. go to the delusional lin thread and circle jerk to that there not here

Prok, if that's his opinion, that's his opinion. Lillard is not on the level of CP3 in my opinion as a team player and neither is Harden. And look at how much of the Lin thread is full of non-Lin talk. That thread went OT too. But I think it is time to let this go, as the mod requested pages ago (and I'm guilty of continuing, so I'm at fault).

[Hello Brooklyn]

Does every damn thread have to became a referendum on Jeremy Lin? My god.

[Prokorov]

Prok, if that's his opinion, that's his opinion. Lillard is not on the level of CP3 in my opinion as a team player and neither is Harden. And look at how much of the Lin thread is full of non-Lin talk. That thread went OT too. But I think it is time to let this go, as the mod requested pages ago (and I'm guilty of continuing, so I'm at fault).

He isnt arguing with opinion he is arguing with facts.... and if he is going to continue to troll non-lin threads he is going to continue to called out for it.

[qiantom]

Question is: Could ANY starting level PG lead most talent-less (oxymoronic?) team to wins like Lin post ASB? -- Most believe, yes.

But focus on gm 82 a moment. Caveats: 1) One game sample size minimal relevancy, take with grain-of-salt; 2) Bropez also out but many aren't convinced his ability to lead wins anyway.

Fact remains a pre-Lin starting lineup: Dinw,Foye,CLV,RHJ,JHam for Bropez played hard against Bulls A-team but they cooked us all 4 Qs. Bulls even bricked shot-after-shot but we played worse. Bench awful - KJ, IW terrible. Reality-check game, stark difference - a throwback to some "I'm-getting-mine" play of earlier.

Final Bulls game indicated, despite the vaunted "improvement" of development guys -- we're still a hairs away from 12 win abysmal-ness.

Don't know who else/how many others could lead us to Wins but to believe this team's "improvement" without a skilled capable leader at point gets us out of deep cellar -- is pure fantasy.

Ex-NBA commish Stern registers his disapproval of this SAME game today. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/04/26/ex-nba-commissioner-david-stern-players-resting-adam-silver/100923982/

Here we are, the Brooklyn Nets are out of the running. They have the lowest record in the sport. But they have an opportunity to weigh in on the final game with respect to Chicago. And they sit their starters? Really? It's inexcusable in my view...shame on the Brooklyn Nets. They broke the (pact with fans). “I think I'm going to give the Nets the benefit of the doubt that they did it without recognizing what they were doing,” - David Stern

Beyond me why NBA's worst team should attract so much discussion by "sitting starters" ... do they actually think a team that bad not sitting just TWO starters could realistically make a difference as to upend playoff participants?

See, I don't like this. Why are we catching hell when you have teams with guys making 25+ million sitting guys who are healthy on saturday night national television games. Lebron, kyrie, Khawi, Steph, Klay KD all have been healthy scratches on ABC's Saturday night game which would not only have been a ratings draw for the company that shelled out millions for the TV rights but for the fans who paid 250+ for tickets to see those guys only to find out that afternoon that dudes were sitting out for no good reason, yet somehow they had the energy to play against some cannon fodder team the night before or after.

David Stern and anyone else who lambasted the Nets are hypocrites. The onus should be on the teams who did that who REALLY hurt the fans and the sport, and not the Nets.

I don't know why these guys are singling the Nets out. Zach Lowe bashed the Nets in his podcast as well. Just because we are the worst team in the NBA does not mean that we deserve to be criticized unfairly.

It was the last game of the season but it was still only one game and carried no extra weight than the others. There is no compensation for the Nets if either Lopez or Lin were to get hurt in a meaningless last game.

Every team was resting their players especially stars throughout the season. If it is a problem, it is a league wide problem. And I even think it is unfair to blame the teams either. They are just trying to protect their stars and make sure they perform late in the season and in the playoffs. I think many fans are fine with resting players for that purpose as well. So the league has only themselves to blame imo if they do not like the situation.

[reelsgm]

Ex-NBA commish Stern registers his disapproval of this SAME game today. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/04/26/ex-nba-commissioner-david-stern-players-resting-adam-silver/100923982/


Beyond me why NBA's worst team should attract so much discussion by "sitting starters" ... do they actually think a team that bad not sitting just TWO starters could realistically make a difference as to upend playoff participants?

See, I don't like this. Why are we catching hell when you have teams with guys making 25+ million sitting guys who are healthy on saturday night national television games. Lebron, kyrie, Khawi, Steph, Klay KD all have been healthy scratches on ABC's Saturday night game which would not only have been a ratings draw for the company that shelled out millions for the TV rights but for the fans who paid 250+ for tickets to see those guys only to find out that afternoon that dudes were sitting out for no good reason, yet somehow they had the energy to play against some cannon fodder team the night before or after.

David Stern and anyone else who lambasted the Nets are hypocrites. The onus should be on the teams who did that who REALLY hurt the fans and the sport, and not the Nets.

I don't know why these guys are singling the Nets out. Zach Lowe bashed the Nets in his podcast as well. Just because we are the worst team in the NBA does not mean that we deserve to be criticized unfairly.

It was the last game of the season but it was still only one game and carried no extra weight than the others. There is no compensation for the Nets if either Lopez or Lin were to get hurt in a meaningless last game.

Every team was resting their players especially stars throughout the season. If it is a problem, it is a league wide problem. And I even think it is unfair to blame the teams either. They are just trying to protect their stars and make sure they perform late in the season and in the playoffs. I think many fans are fine with resting players for that purpose as well. So the league has only themselves to blame imo if they do not like the situation.

The more relevant point is not that Nets got bashed ...

... the point is, for some godforsaken reason, people actually believe a 20 win putrid team, had a realistic chance to beat a playoff bound team had they just allowed 2 starters to play - the fact that they even thought a WIN was in the realm of reality enough to open their mouths, THAT is what should shock everyone.

Had we ended the season 3-47 not Stern nor anyone in the NBA would have made a peep.

[bws94]

Ex-NBA commish Stern registers his disapproval of this SAME game today. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/04/26/ex-nba-commissioner-david-stern-players-resting-adam-silver/100923982/


Beyond me why NBA's worst team should attract so much discussion by "sitting starters" ... do they actually think a team that bad not sitting just TWO starters could realistically make a difference as to upend playoff participants?

See, I don't like this. Why are we catching hell when you have teams with guys making 25+ million sitting guys who are healthy on saturday night national television games. Lebron, kyrie, Khawi, Steph, Klay KD all have been healthy scratches on ABC's Saturday night game which would not only have been a ratings draw for the company that shelled out millions for the TV rights but for the fans who paid 250+ for tickets to see those guys only to find out that afternoon that dudes were sitting out for no good reason, yet somehow they had the energy to play against some cannon fodder team the night before or after.

David Stern and anyone else who lambasted the Nets are hypocrites. The onus should be on the teams who did that who REALLY hurt the fans and the sport, and not the Nets.

I don't know why these guys are singling the Nets out. Zach Lowe bashed the Nets in his podcast as well. Just because we are the worst team in the NBA does not mean that we deserve to be criticized unfairly.

It was the last game of the season but it was still only one game and carried no extra weight than the others. There is no compensation for the Nets if either Lopez or Lin were to get hurt in a meaningless last game.

Every team was resting their players especially stars throughout the season. If it is a problem, it is a league wide problem. And I even think it is unfair to blame the teams either. They are just trying to protect their stars and make sure they perform late in the season and in the playoffs. I think many fans are fine with resting players for that purpose as well. So the league has only themselves to blame imo if they do not like the situation.

Marks/Atkinson wanted to get a look at some of the players to make key decision as to who goes and who stays. They didn't need to look at Lopez, Lin, Booker, etc. The good young players were in to see how they can play without the vets.

[Kswiss]

Prok, if that's his opinion, that's his opinion. Lillard is not on the level of CP3 in my opinion as a team player and neither is Harden. And look at how much of the Lin thread is full of non-Lin talk. That thread went OT too. But I think it is time to let this go, as the mod requested pages ago (and I'm guilty of continuing, so I'm at fault).

He isnt arguing with opinion he is arguing with facts.... and if he is going to continue to troll non-lin threads he is going to continue to called out for it.

Actually Prok, I was stating year-over-year win loss records in relation to Lin, and actual playoff runs of CP3. You were stating your opinion on why the numbers and wins are not a fair estimator of team impact, stating name reputation and notoriety as the most important indicator. Sound argument

[Prokorov]

Actually Prok, I was stating year-over-year win loss records in relation to Lin, and actual playoff runs of CP3. You were stating your opinion on why the numbers and wins are not a fair estimator of team impact, stating name reputation and notoriety as the most important indicator. Sound argument

actually you didnt state anything. you didnt use any facts to backup anything... just per usually pulling things out your rear and excusing away empirical evidence because "only wins matter"

I also never mentioned notoriety as a factor at all, let alone an important one.

Pauls stats blow lins out of the water
Paul
18.1 points
9.2 assists
5.0 rebounds
48 FG%/41 3PT%/89 FT%
26.2 PER
61.1 TS%

Lin
14.5 points
5.1 assists
3.8 rebounds
43FG%/37 3PT%/81 FT%
19.2 PER
56.6 TS%

Pauls analytics with regards to impact on winning blow lin out of the water
Paul
+8.10 RPM (1st among PGs)
+13.70 RPM wins (3rd among PGs)
+8.6 BPM
+10.6 win shares
+5.08 RAPM


Lin
+0.46 RPM (23rd among PG)
+2.21 RPM wins (31st among PG)
+2.0 BPM
+2.1 win shares
+0.16 RAPM

Pauls playoff stats blow lins out of the water
Paul - career playoffs
21.7 points
9.5 assists
4.8 rebounds
48 FG%/39 3PT%/84 FT%
26.7 PER
59.2 TS%

Lin - Career playoffs
10.1 points
3.1 assits
2.7 rebounds
38.5% FG/20.4% 3PT%/82.5 FT%
10.9 PER
49.4 TS%

** LIN's numbers were worse in the playoffs vs the regular season every year - Paul typically got better **


You want to talk strictly about wins?

what did the clippers win before chris paul?

Before chris paul the clippers were 32-50 and hadnt made the playoffs just once in 15 years. once they got paul they have won 50+ games every year with the exception of the lockout season where they went 40-26 and made the playoffs every single season including beating a 67 win spurs team on the road after beind down 3-2 with Paul carrying them in that game 7.

What did the hornets win before chris paul?

The hornets were 26-56 before they drafted chris paul. The next year they won 33 games and then 35 and 44 and make the playoffs. after paul left then went 7-59 in the lockout year.

The hornets were a .500 team with jeremy lin until they brought in Lee and went 20-6. The rockets went to the conference finals the year after lin left. the warriors turned into an all time great team with lin gone. the knicks won 54 games after lin left and won the division.

Going purely by record with no context(your weird criteria not mine):

Warriors - worse after Lin (36 wins to 23 wins)
Knicks - better after Lin (54 wins won division)
Rockets - better after Lin (56 wins western conference finals)
Lakers - worse after Lin (23 wins to 17 wins)
Charlotte -Worse after Lin (48 wins to 36 wins)
Nets - Worse after adding Lin (21 wins last year, 20 this year)

so 3 years the team was worse after Lin, 3 years better after Lin.

Also, the 3 teams lin started on (knicks/rockets/nets) the rockets/knicks were better the year after they let go of lin. nets were 1 game worse with Lin on the team then the 21 wins last year.

[Kswiss]

Actually Prok, I was stating year-over-year win loss records in relation to Lin, and actual playoff runs of CP3. You were stating your opinion on why the numbers and wins are not a fair estimator of team impact, stating name reputation and notoriety as the most important indicator. Sound argument

actually you didnt state anything. you didnt use any facts to backup anything... just per usually pulling things out your rear and excusing away empirical evidence because "only wins matter"

I also never mentioned notoriety as a factor at all, let alone an important one.

Pauls stats blow lins out of the water

Pauls analytics with regards to impact on winning blow lin out of the water

Pauls playoff stats blow lins out of the water

pauls analytics with regards to impact in the playoffs blow lin out of the water

You want to talk strictly about wins?

what did the clippers win before chris paul?

Before chris paul the clippers were 32-50 and hadnt made the playoffs just once in 15 years. once they got paul they have won 50+ games every year with the exception of the lockout season where they went 40-26 and made the playoffs every single season including beating a 67 win spurs team on the road after beind down 3-2 with Paul carrying them in that game 7.

What did the hornets win before chris paul?

The hornets were 26-56 before they drafted chris paul. The next year they won 33 games and then 35 and 44 and make the playoffs. after paul left then went 7-59 in the lockout year.

The hornets were a .500 team with jeremy lin until they brought in Lee and went 20-6. The rockets went to the conference finals the year after lin left. the warriors turned into an all time great team with lin gone. the knicks won 54 games after lin left and won the division.

Going purely by record:

Warriors - worse after Lin (36 wins to 23 wins)
Knicks - better after Lin (54 wins won division)
Rockets - better after Lin (56 wins western conference finals)
Lakers - worse after Lin (23 wins to 17 wins)
Charlotte -Worse after Lin (48 wins to 36 wins)
Nets - Worse after adding Lin (21 wins last year, 20 this year)

so 3 years the team was worse after Lin, 3 years better after Lin.

Also, the 3 teams lin started on (knicks/rockets/nets) the rockets/knicks were better the year after they let go of lin. nets were 1 game worse with Lin on the team then the 21 wins last year.

You lost me at Nets worse with Lin. What we 2-45 without him this year?

[Prokorov]

You lost me at Nets worse with Lin. What we 2-45 without him this year?

by your criteria were all we use is strict year over year record without context nets won 21 last year and 20 this year... so dont get on me when your own shady criteria doesnt look great.

I posted all of the stats above... if you want to starting using facts.

-Paul has produced much better. not close, see stats above.
-Paul has produced much better in the playoffs. not close, see stats above.
-Lin performs worse in the playoffs then the regular season. his playoff numbers are really poor
-Paul got better most years in the playoffs
-Pauls teams consistently win 50+ games with paul as the best player.
-Pauls analytics on impact are much better then lin. not close. see stats above.

There is nothing to justify Lin as a better player or more impactful player then Paul.

This is a joke to even be discussing. Lin couldnt shine chris pauls shoes

[Kswiss]

You lost me at Nets worse with Lin. What we 2-45 without him this year?

by your criteria were all we use is strict year over year record without context nets won 21 last year and 20 this year... so dont get on me when your own shady criteria doesnt look great.

I posted all of the stats above... if you want to starting using facts.

-Paul has produced much better. not close, see stats above.
-Paul has produced much better in the playoffs. not close, see stats above.
-Lin performs worse in the playoffs then the regular season. his playoff numbers are really poor
-Paul got better most years in the playoffs
-Pauls teams consistently win 50+ games with paul as the best player.
-Pauls analytics on impact are much better then lin. not close. see stats above.

There is nothing to justify Lin as a better player or more impactful player then Paul.

This is a joke to even be discussing. Lin couldnt shine chris pauls shoes

Lin has been great in the past two playoffs lol, he did have a bad game or two injured his first year in Houston, but he wasn't as good a player in those days. He's been lights out recently

[Prokorov]

Lin has been great in the past two playoffs lol, he did have a bad game or two injured his first year in Houston, but he wasn't as good a player in those days. He's been lights out recently

"Great"? no he wasnt great let alone lights out.... he had pretty mediocure raw stats on terrible shooting, poor efficiency and the team got outscored when he was on the court.


Lin Playoffs last year:
12.4 points
2.6 assists
2.3 rebounds
41.3% FG/21.4% 3PT/82.1%FT
14.5 PER
54.3 TS%
-1.5 BPM (NEGATIVE with him on the floor)

Lin Playoffs the year before:
11.3 points
4.3 assists
3.7 rebounds
41.0% FG/21.7% 3PT/81.3%FT
12.4 PER
50.0 TS%
-0.4 BPM (NEGATIVE with him on the floor)

So year... unlesss you conisider terrible shooting, poor efficienct, and being an overall negative in +/- "great/lights out" then he certainly wasnt great.

And for comparison... chris paul the loses who never won a ring:

Paul Playoffs last year:
27.0 points
10.4 assists
5.3 rebounds
53.1% FG/44.0% 3PT/91.7%FT
34.3 PER
63.3 TS%
+16.7 BPM

Paul Career Playoffs
21.4 points
9.5 assists
4.8 rebounds
48.7% FG/39.8% 3PT/84.8%FT
26.1 PER
58.8 TS%
+8.7 BPM

You should go back ignoring facts and just going on "lin is better cause of things you cant measure" or some nonsense. cause the facts show he isnt on the same planet as the top PGs in this league. Look im all for stats arent everything. and if you want to tell me that Lins intangables put him over the top on guys with slightly better numbers like say Jeff Teague... sure I can roll with that. But when you are talking about guys who put up All-NBA/HoF numbers who also win 50 games every year and who drastically outplay lin in the playoffs... well in that case you need to just STFU and stop trolling