WCQF: P2 | (4) LA Clippers vs Utah Jazz (5) | UTA 4-3

[Method28]

I Find it funny when top players get scape-goated cause they can't take their teams very far...

First off, Griffin getting injured eliminates LAC's chances. It's a top-heavy team that's built on the Big-3, and the rest of the roster is a lot of fluff. Old-time Crawford and Pierce, Blue Devil JJ and vet. min. Wes and Luc aren't gonna carry any heavy loads in the Western Playoffs.

It's different than last year's Warriors, where they had enough depth to still advance through playoff rounds without Curry. Take CP3 off the Clippers, and they're winning as many games as the Sixers and Lakers.

But hey, I'll take CP3 on my team.

DAJ isn't a big 3. I'm so sick of hearing this. If he was a "big 3" they'd get out of the first round without their third. Cp3 is doing it all alone out there, DeAndre Jordan isn't doing jack - he had 14 points in 40 minutes. He is a role player, hardly worthly of a "big3" title. It's like calling Patrick Beverly + James harden a big 2, when in reality one is there for defense and to be a role player, and can't carry the team in any capacity whatsoever.

So is Rudy Gobert a role player like Patrick Beverly? He averaged 14 points

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[yoyoboy]

CP3 is probably the unluckiest star in history. Every postseason his teammates just straight up fail him either due to their own ineptitude or injury problems. And he does his part and more. But people call him a choker and blame his teams' failures on him. The dude is every bit as good as every point guard in history other than maybe Magic.

[my2bits]

Oh, and a lesser player like Kyrie Irving matters because he's playing with LeBron? The west is grueling and the Dubs and Spurs are just better. No shame in that. He never stood a chance in NOLA and Doc Rivers the GM has undermined the Clips with poor off season moves. I doubt if any team can win it all with DeAndre Jordan as part of their big 3 (horrible FT's, can't feature him on O and he kills floor spacing) $100 mil? Are you kidding me? Without a versatile SF you can't win in the small ball era.

[Method28]

CP3 is probably the unluckiest star in history. Every postseason his teammates just straight up fail him either due to their own ineptitude or injury problems. And he does his part and more. But people call him a choker and blame his teams' failures on him. The dude is every bit as good as every point guard in history other than maybe Magic.

My exact thoughts. Although i dont even count Magic as a pg. He was just a freak of nature. Idk any pg that can start at Center in a finals game and dominate lol

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[Roscoe Sheed]

Again, not that it exactly caused them to lose the game, but calls went against the clippers in the 4th quarter as well. Hill blatantly traveled before passing to hood for a 3, the foul on cp3 is almost always just called a jump ball. Contact was very minimal. Johnson pushed off on his last shot to get separation from mbah moute. I know almost this entire board hates the clippers but that doesn't mean they don't get some calls that go against them

[Edrees]

I Find it funny when top players get scape-goated cause they can't take their teams very far...

First off, Griffin getting injured eliminates LAC's chances. It's a top-heavy team that's built on the Big-3, and the rest of the roster is a lot of fluff. Old-time Crawford and Pierce, Blue Devil JJ and vet. min. Wes and Luc aren't gonna carry any heavy loads in the Western Playoffs.

It's different than last year's Warriors, where they had enough depth to still advance through playoff rounds without Curry. Take CP3 off the Clippers, and they're winning as many games as the Sixers and Lakers.

But hey, I'll take CP3 on my team.

DAJ isn't a big 3. I'm so sick of hearing this. If he was a "big 3" they'd get out of the first round without their third. Cp3 is doing it all alone out there, DeAndre Jordan isn't doing jack - he had 14 points in 40 minutes. He is a role player, hardly worthly of a "big3" title. It's like calling Patrick Beverly + James harden a big 2, when in reality one is there for defense and to be a role player, and can't carry the team in any capacity whatsoever.

So is Rudy Gobert a role player like Patrick Beverly? He averaged 14 points

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Gobert is coming off an injury and missed several games this series.

[Method28]

DAJ isn't a big 3. I'm so sick of hearing this. If he was a "big 3" they'd get out of the first round without their third. Cp3 is doing it all alone out there, DeAndre Jordan isn't doing jack - he had 14 points in 40 minutes. He is a role player, hardly worthly of a "big3" title. It's like calling Patrick Beverly + James harden a big 2, when in reality one is there for defense and to be a role player, and can't carry the team in any capacity whatsoever.

So is Rudy Gobert a role player like Patrick Beverly? He averaged 14 points

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Gobert is coming off an injury and missed several games this series.

Lol and? He avg 14 points during the regular season.

My point is its not all about how many points you score

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[MrSparkle]

So is Rudy Gobert a role player like Patrick Beverly? He averaged 14 points

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Gobert is coming off an injury and missed several games this series.

Lol and? He avg 14 points during the regular season.

My point is its not all about how many points you score

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Well all he's doing is further validating my point that CP3 carries a bigger load.

And yes, DJ is the 3rd best player on the Clippers, and the 4th guy isn't even close... So that's their Big-3; I never said they had a great trio at top.

[RSCD3_]

The double T for hayward was silly, had a more milder reaction than most double T's

[hardenASG13]

Lol so 90% of the league doesnt matter...cuz most of the league is not going past the first round and any team in the west is gonna get slapped by GSW (maybe the spurs but even then the Dubs are loaded and balling)...so WB, Harden, Dwade, P.George, etc dont matter...Also, why even watch the nex Rox series then, the winner is just gonna get beat by GSW easily

Yea pretty much.....i think people are widely recognizing the lack of parody is a major problem.
90% of the teams really don't matter as they have no chance. WB and harden can lead a team to a title as the number one with the right cast, such as 2 all stars in the front court and some shooting around them. I don't think cp3 can. Too small and not aggressive enough. He'd be an elite 2nd best player though, same with guys like PG, Butler, etc.

But they HAVEN'T done it. Neither did Durant. What makes it ok for Westbrook and Harden to not lead their team to a title but when it comes to Paul, even though he does more than his share, he's to blame. Westy had the lead in the 4th in every game vs Houston but game 1, and they won 1 of them.....1! If hes such a closer, what happened?

Harden and Westy are high usage players who are turnover machines. Great players no doubt, but people see their flashy numbers and go crazy. Neither will sniff a title as the lone wolf or with the cast CP3 has. The Clippers roster looks great on paper, but when the playoffs come, its CP3 by himself.

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But they have the ability where they COULD do it. Westbrook and Durant, along with a young harden, alreadt have led a team of not much else (they were starting perkins and thabo!) to the finals. The only other time they were healthy, last yr, okc was a win away from the finals.They have the talent, along with size and aggression, to do it (as does harden, think he makes wcf this year at least).I don't think cp3 does. He's really good, there is no debating that. But like Mike Conroy, also really good and efficient, both their coaches consistently say they want them to be more aggressive (note, I'm not saying conely is cp3, but similar game where he could do more and it woulf help the team).He lacks the size and physicality needed to be a top tier guy who can lead you anywhere meaningful. Great talent, but not that great.

[dautjazz]

Here's a question. Who's a better coach Doc Rivers or Quin Snyder?

I think Quin Snyder is an extremely underrated coach. He should be a top candidate for coach of the year considering what he's accomplished with this team this season. The Jazz's main starting line up only logged 152 minutes together through the regular season... for comparison...the Clippers starting unit logged over 800 minutes of playing time together in the regular season. That gives you a grasp of what the injuries did to the Jazz this season. It was never ending...but they kept it together.

There are still some things I question about his process, but overall I think he's got a vision for the team that's more long term than what I'm looking at as a fan. I think the Jazz are damn lucky to have this guy at the helm. Plus... he looks like an 80's movie villain, or ax murderer...I like that too.

As for Doc... I don't know. I think people have their pitchforks out, but maybe he's not as bad at coaching as people think. How many 50 win seasons do the Clips have under Doc???? They've had some tough breaks in the playoffs no doubt, but I think they have an odd roster that makes coaching decisions especially difficult now that Blake is out. I'd say he's probably a better coach than GM, but people want to just blame Doc for loosing games vs a Jazz team that's just better than people realized, or want to give credit for. This Jazz team is built to cause matchup problems for just about anyone...they have tons of depth, (and their depth has a lot of time on the floor due to the ridiculous amount of injuries this season), ISO Joe, Hayward, Ingles is a top 3 shooter in the league,... They're super long at every position, and they are a top 3 defensive team anchored by a complete freak of a player in Gobert. They're a nightmare team for anyone to play in a playoff series. Rick Carlisle made a comment about the Jazz earlier this year... He said "playing against this team is like a 3 hour long dentist appointment".

Clips are a great team. Maybe they take series if Blake was healthy...maybe not. Pretty damn even series either way you look at it. The fact is that the West is stacked. Spurs, Houston, GSW, Grizz, Jazz, Clips... It's a gauntlet for any team to make it to the finals.

If I'm the owner of this team, I'm hesitant to just clean house. They clean house right now, and they're going to be back at the bottom for 4 years minimum.

To be fair look at what Vinnie Del Negro accomplished just before:

2010-11: 32-50 - Rookie Blake, DJ was just a 7/7 guy, Eric Gordon injuries, and CP3 was not there yet
2011-12: 40-26 (49-50 win pace) - Added CP3, made 2nd round of the playoffs, lost to Spurs
2012-13: 56-26 - Added Jamal Crawford, lost in 1st round, but this is up there with the best seasons Doc Rivers had

Rivers has had 57, 56, 53, and 51 win teams, each year getting a little worse. So it's either we overestimated how good this squad can be or Rivers and Del Negro both suck.

Just hearing Rivers talk in press conferences, honestly I can't believe he's an NBA head coach. How he said that Gobert didn't effect them, OBVIOUSLY in the last two games he's had a tremendous effect defensively, the Clippers killed the Jazz in the paint without Gobert. Then he said that the Clippers played good defense the last game, when actually the Jazz who have three .400 3pt shooters, a .398 3pt shooter in Hayward and Hood is .373, and the team struggled behind the arc, and it was mostly just good looks missed. There are other points he's tried to make, but the truth is we figured out how to slow down the pick and roll with Paul/DJ, and now with Gobert we can defend the rim.

[jazzfan1971]

He didn't say Gobert didn't effect them. He said he didn't effect their gameplan. And he may not have. They may not have changed rotations or sets due to Gobert's return. Maybe they should have, but, it's entirely possible that they didn't. Maybe they just didn't have enough flexibility in their available players to do much different than they were doing anyway.

[Edrees]

If I were a coach I'd lie and say he didn't affect my gameplan so they thnk I'm using the same gameplan as the last game

[The_Hater]

Yea pretty much.....i think people are widely recognizing the lack of parody is a major problem.
90% of the teams really don't matter as they have no chance. WB and harden can lead a team to a title as the number one with the right cast, such as 2 all stars in the front court and some shooting around them. I don't think cp3 can. Too small and not aggressive enough. He'd be an elite 2nd best player though, same with guys like PG, Butler, etc.

But they HAVEN'T done it. Neither did Durant. What makes it ok for Westbrook and Harden to not lead their team to a title but when it comes to Paul, even though he does more than his share, he's to blame. Westy had the lead in the 4th in every game vs Houston but game 1, and they won 1 of them.....1! If hes such a closer, what happened?

Harden and Westy are high usage players who are turnover machines. Great players no doubt, but people see their flashy numbers and go crazy. Neither will sniff a title as the lone wolf or with the cast CP3 has. The Clippers roster looks great on paper, but when the playoffs come, its CP3 by himself.

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But they have the ability where they COULD do it. Westbrook and Durant, along with a young harden, alreadt have led a team of not much else (they were starting perkins and thabo!) to the finals. The only other time they were healthy, last yr, okc was a win away from the finals.They have the talent, along with size and aggression, to do it (as does harden, think he makes wcf this year at least).I don't think cp3 does. He's really good, there is no debating that. But like Mike Conroy, also really good and efficient, both their coaches consistently say they want them to be more aggressive (note, I'm not saying conely is cp3, but similar game where he could do more and it woulf help the team).He lacks the size and physicality needed to be a top tier guy who can lead you anywhere meaningful. Great talent, but not that great.

You've got your heels dug in so deep on this nonsense I can no longer see your knees.

[dautjazz]

He didn't say Gobert didn't effect them. He said he didn't effect their gameplan. And he may not have. They may not have changed rotations or sets due to Gobert's return. Maybe they should have, but, it's entirely possible that they didn't. Maybe they just didn't have enough flexibility in their available players to do much different than they were doing anyway.

Well when Gobert was out, it was attack the basket, they had 60+ paint points in one of the games without Gobert, then we started having more paint points than the Clippers, so ofcourse it affected their gameplan.

[dautjazz]

If I were a coach I'd lie and say he didn't affect my gameplan so they thnk I'm using the same gameplan as the last game

And it worked wonders for them in game 5.

[MartinToVaught]

He didn't say Gobert didn't effect them. He said he didn't effect their gameplan.

He said Gobert "didn't affect what we do." That doesn't necessarily mean he's talking about the gameplan, he could have just been referring to the players' execution. Besides, we already know that nothing affects Doc's gameplan because he's incapable of making adjustments.

[mudsak]

Here's a question. Who's a better coach Doc Rivers or Quin Snyder?

To be fair look at what Vinnie Del Negro accomplished just before:

2010-11: 32-50 - Rookie Blake, DJ was just a 7/7 guy, Eric Gordon injuries, and CP3 was not there yet
2011-12: 40-26 (49-50 win pace) - Added CP3, made 2nd round of the playoffs, lost to Spurs
2012-13: 56-26 - Added Jamal Crawford, lost in 1st round, but this is up there with the best seasons Doc Rivers had

Rivers has had 57, 56, 53, and 51 win teams, each year getting a little worse. So it's either we overestimated how good this squad can be or Rivers and Del Negro both suck.

Just hearing Rivers talk in press conferences, honestly I can't believe he's an NBA head coach. How he said that Gobert didn't effect them, OBVIOUSLY in the last two games he's had a tremendous effect defensively, the Clippers killed the Jazz in the paint without Gobert. Then he said that the Clippers played good defense the last game, when actually the Jazz who have three .400 3pt shooters, a .398 3pt shooter in Hayward and Hood is .373, and the team struggled behind the arc, and it was mostly just good looks missed. There are other points he's tried to make, but the truth is we figured out how to slow down the pick and roll with Paul/DJ, and now with Gobert we can defend the rim.

I still think 4 straight years of 50+ wins has to be considered successful in the NBA...no matter what the teams expectations are. Obviously their goal is to win the Championship, and anything less is considered a failure by CP3, the Owner, the fans, the Media, and probably Doc himself.

I don't think Doc is such a horrible coach. The guy has lead a championship team, and has a phenomenal track record as a winning coach. He's also succeeded while coaching difficult-to-deal with players like Rondo. I think Clips fans maybe have unfair expectations of their team at this point, and naturally they want to blame some one. CP3 has been blamed for "choking", Blake has been blamed for getting injured...which is ridiculous, and Doc has been blamed for his "terrible" coaching. I look at this series... in which every single game has gone down to the wire, and I don't see a terrible coach in Doc. At this point it is very clear that the Jazz have a more well constructed team... more balanced, and the depth of the Clippers bench is a big problem for them. This is of course made that much more clear by the absence of Blake Griffin. When the Jazz loose a key player, they have enough depth to actually adjust while still being effective. What does Doc really have to work with now that Griffin is out?... On top of that the Jazz have done a great job at neutralizing Redick.

Honestly... I don't think Doc is a horrible coach. His track record speaks for itself. However... I don't think he should continue as an acting GM. I think you get the right person in that position and you have a better chance to shore up the roster. If I'm the owner that's what I do... Demote Doc to only focus on coaching... Hire the right person as GM (who ever that might be) try as hard as possible to re-sign Blake and CP3... retool around them, and keep grinding. You just don't blow up a 50+ win team... not yet at least.

[mudsak]

He didn't say Gobert didn't effect them. He said he didn't effect their gameplan.

He said Gobert "didn't affect what we do." That doesn't necessarily mean he's talking about the gameplan, he could have just been referring to the players' execution. Besides, we already know that nothing affects Doc's gameplan because he's incapable of making adjustments.

Yeah... I think people made a big deal out of that comment for no reason. I have to think that he's being 100% honest that Gobert doesn't really affect what they're trying to do. He's a giant defensive presence in the middle of the paint... it is what it is. He's there, or he's not, but I have to imagine that the Clippers are going to try to execute in a similar fashion regardless of his presence in the game. I don't think Gobert is necessarily a player that teams specifically plan around. Maybe they're trying to space the floor at times and pull him out of the paint on high pick & rolls, but they were already doing that even with Gobert out of the game. I really don't think Gobert being in the game changes the Clippers approach.

[MartinToVaught]

I still think 4 straight years of 50+ wins has to be considered successful in the NBA

Not when you never get past the second round of the playoffs. That's treadmilling, not success. Plus, we were a hair's breath away from missing the 50-win milestone this year anyway. Our win totals have declined every year of the Doc era.

I don't think Doc is such a horrible coach. The guy has lead a championship team

Pierce, KG and Allen led a championship team. Doc was just along for the ride. He "coached" them into having to go all seven games against the under-.500 Hawks and one-man Cavs - despite having by far the most stacked team in the league that year.

and has a phenomenal track record as a winning coach.

His overall record was under .500 and he was on the hot seat before Ray and KG arrived to bail out his career.

He's also succeeded while coaching difficult-to-deal with players like Rondo.

Rondo's attitude was widely reported as one of the reasons why Doc quit on the Celtics and moved to LA. The Big Three kept Rondo in line, not Doc. Once Ray had left and it was clear that Pierce and KG were on their way out, that's when the relationship between Doc and Rondo became strained and the Celtics started trying to trade Rondo.

I think Clips fans maybe have unfair expectations of their team at this point

Getting past the second round of the playoffs at least once when you've had three all-stars, a supposed "elite coach," one of the highest payrolls in the league and several great chances to do it is not an unfair expectation at all. It's not like we're expecting a dynasty here. We'd have been thrilled with just one measly WCF appearance with this core.

Doc has been blamed for his "terrible" coaching. I look at this series... in which every single game has gone down to the wire, and I don't see a terrible coach in Doc.

With all due respect, you're not a Clippers fan, so you don't have the intimate knowledge of the team's strengths and weaknesses that those of us who watch every Clippers game have. There's a reason why pretty much the entire fanbase is united in wanting Doc gone. He has made zero adjustments at all this series. This is his *third* playoff series against Joe Johnson, yet he still has no idea how to stop him. He's giving playoff minutes to Jamal Crawford and washed-up Pierce.

We have no system on either end of the court. It's iso-heroball on offense, and I don't even know what this team is supposed to be doing on defense. We are giving Utah the shots they want on every possession, basically. Our guys are scrambling aimlessly as the Jazz calmly swing the ball around and find Hood and Ingles for open shots. Just completely undisciplined.

If I'm the owner that's what I do... Demote Doc to only focus on coaching... Hire the right person as GM (who ever that might be)

We won't get a single decent GM if we don't let them pick their own coach. It's a bad-faith move to try to force Doc on the next GM.