UTAH/IND - A New Western Powerhouse

[Trader_Joe]

Too rich for my taste.

Take out Dante, the 24th pick and some of the 2nd rounders and I'd start considering it.

The trade would gut the Jazz or all future assets and there's no guarantee that PG13 would stay in Utah longterm.

I'm also not as high on PG13 as others. Gordon is already better than him and PG13 has shown he's got a bad attitude over the last couple seasons. I don't think chemistry would be good if PG13 had to submit to the team being Gordon's (which it is) and not his.

If the Jazz made that type of grandfather offer, it better be for Damian Lillard.

Again the logic was Hayward and Hill say if you trade for PG we both resign regardless.
As for being able to walk, PG13 couldn't go to a better team and meanwhile Favors is a flight risk for Utah or Indy as well.

Even if it all works out for Utah, it's still way too rich for Utah. The Jazz would literally be gutting themselves for the next several years. They'd have no cap room whatsoever, likely be waaaaay into the luxury tax and would have no draft picks to use in either trades or just to take young cheap players that con contribute.

They would have 3 draft picks in 2017.
A #1 in 2018
All their 1sts from 2020 on
And they have are owed 3 extra 2nd rounders

Basically they lose their 2019 #1 and I was vague about 2nd rounders which are sure are highly negotiable.

[asitter]

Too rich for my taste.

Take out Dante, the 24th pick and some of the 2nd rounders and I'd start considering it.

The trade would gut the Jazz or all future assets and there's no guarantee that PG13 would stay in Utah longterm.

I'm also not as high on PG13 as others. Gordon is already better than him and PG13 has shown he's got a bad attitude over the last couple seasons. I don't think chemistry would be good if PG13 had to submit to the team being Gordon's (which it is) and not his.

If the Jazz made that type of grandfather offer, it better be for Damian Lillard.

Take out Exum and the 24th and then you're going to be outbid. And no, Hayward is not better than PG:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/paul_george_vs_gordon_hayward.htm

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

Too rich for my taste.

Take out Dante, the 24th pick and some of the 2nd rounders and I'd start considering it.

The trade would gut the Jazz or all future assets and there's no guarantee that PG13 would stay in Utah longterm.

I'm also not as high on PG13 as others. Gordon is already better than him and PG13 has shown he's got a bad attitude over the last couple seasons. I don't think chemistry would be good if PG13 had to submit to the team being Gordon's (which it is) and not his.

If the Jazz made that type of grandfather offer, it better be for Damian Lillard.

Take out Exum and the 24th and then you're going to be outbid. And no, Hayward is not better than PG:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/paul_george_vs_gordon_hayward.htm

Fine, let someone outbid us.

And yes, Hayward is better than PG13. Here's the pecking order between Hayward, Butler and PG13 if you're interested:
1. Jimmy Butler
2. Gordon Hayward
3. Paul George

Proof is in the pudding. Hayward has been better all season long, his team is consistently better and both he and his team are doing better in the playoffs this year. Sorry to burst your bubble. PG13 is great, but he's not better than Gordon.

[asitter]

Too rich for my taste.

Take out Dante, the 24th pick and some of the 2nd rounders and I'd start considering it.

The trade would gut the Jazz or all future assets and there's no guarantee that PG13 would stay in Utah longterm.

I'm also not as high on PG13 as others. Gordon is already better than him and PG13 has shown he's got a bad attitude over the last couple seasons. I don't think chemistry would be good if PG13 had to submit to the team being Gordon's (which it is) and not his.

If the Jazz made that type of grandfather offer, it better be for Damian Lillard.

Take out Exum and the 24th and then you're going to be outbid. And no, Hayward is not better than PG:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/paul_george_vs_gordon_hayward.htm

Fine, let someone outbid us.

And yes, Hayward is better than PG13. Here's the pecking order between Hayward, Butler and PG13 if you're interested:
1. Jimmy Butler
2. Gordon Hayward
3. Paul George

Proof is in the pudding. Hayward has been better all season long, his team is consistently better and both he and his team are doing better in the playoffs this year. Sorry to burst your bubble. PG13 is great, but he's not better than Gordon.

So Hayward is better because you say he's better. The only "proof" you have is that his team is better, which is the worst argument you could have used.... I guess that mean McGee is better than Towns, no? Love is better than Anthony Davis?

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-playoffs-lebron-james-chris-paul-james-harden-russell-westbrook-042217

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2703608-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-ranking-top-100

http://cavaliers.247sports.com/Gallery/NBA-2K17-ranks-the-leagues-10-best-players-in-their-end-of-seaso-52359915

And those are just in the last month. Show me something that proves Hayward is better without looking through the rosy glasses of a homer.

[ALL HAIL]

No mention (other than the OP) that Utah could lose all of that for nothing if he chooses to leave in free agency?

Fascinating.

I think Utah would have a much better chance resigning George, actually, if it were him, alone, there, instead of Hayward, not with him.

George wants to be the man, but in a new environment. Playing with Hayward, is not part of the equation.

[MUpacersSIC]

No mention (other than the OP) that Utah could lose all of that for nothing if he chooses to leave in free agency?

Fascinating.

I think Utah would have a much better chance resigning George, actually, if it were him, alone, there, instead of Hayward, not with him.

George wants to be the man, but in a new environment. Playing with Hayward, is not part of the equation.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I don't know where this "George can't play with other stars" came from, but it's dead wrong. You do realize that the biggest reason he'd leave Indy is because the odds of them obtaining another star are rare, right? Goes completely against everything some of you are saying. He'd absolutely love having Hayward, and even said he'd love to play with him.


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[ALL HAIL]

No mention (other than the OP) that Utah could lose all of that for nothing if he chooses to leave in free agency?

Fascinating.

I think Utah would have a much better chance resigning George, actually, if it were him, alone, there, instead of Hayward, not with him.

George wants to be the man, but in a new environment. Playing with Hayward, is not part of the equation.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I don't know where this "George can't play with other stars" came from, but it's dead wrong. You do realize that the biggest reason he'd leave Indy is because the odds of them obtaining another star are rare, right? Goes completely against everything some of you are saying. He'd absolutely love having Hayward, and even said he'd love to play with him.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

And then Hayward's number is called for the game winner ... and then again ... and then again.

He wants to be the clear leader. This is clear to me. He'll play with other guys, but, ideally, for him, he wants to be the clear leader/go-to guy. This is probably only exacerbated by the clinker he threw up in the waning moments of game four.

[MUpacersSIC]

No mention (other than the OP) that Utah could lose all of that for nothing if he chooses to leave in free agency?

Fascinating.

I think Utah would have a much better chance resigning George, actually, if it were him, alone, there, instead of Hayward, not with him.

George wants to be the man, but in a new environment. Playing with Hayward, is not part of the equation.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I don't know where this "George can't play with other stars" came from, but it's dead wrong. You do realize that the biggest reason he'd leave Indy is because the odds of them obtaining another star are rare, right? Goes completely against everything some of you are saying. He'd absolutely love having Hayward, and even said he'd love to play with him.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

And then Hayward's number is called for the game winner ... and then again ... and then again.

He wants to be the clear leader. This is clear to me. He'll play with other guys, but, ideally, for him, he wants to be the clear leader/go-to guy. This is probably only exacerbated by the clinker he threw up in the waning moments of game four.

Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night. Crazy


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[asitter]

No mention (other than the OP) that Utah could lose all of that for nothing if he chooses to leave in free agency?

Fascinating.

I think Utah would have a much better chance resigning George, actually, if it were him, alone, there, instead of Hayward, not with him.

George wants to be the man, but in a new environment. Playing with Hayward, is not part of the equation.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I don't know where this "George can't play with other stars" came from, but it's dead wrong. You do realize that the biggest reason he'd leave Indy is because the odds of them obtaining another star are rare, right? Goes completely against everything some of you are saying. He'd absolutely love having Hayward, and even said he'd love to play with him.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

And then Hayward's number is called for the game winner ... and then again ... and then again.

He wants to be the clear leader. This is clear to me. He'll play with other guys, but, ideally, for him, he wants to be the clear leader/go-to guy. This is probably only exacerbated by the clinker he threw up in the waning moments of game four.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/03/23/report-paul-george-wants-to-play-with-gordon-hayward/

[Cappy_Smurf]

I love the idea of PG, but didn't I hear from Indy fans that George refuses to play the 4? It could still work, but probably best to move Burks for some kind of PF and then move Hayward and George down one slot. Throw him in for Thad?

Hill
Hayward
PG
Joe Johnson
Gobert

[Cappy_Smurf]

No mention (other than the OP) that Utah could lose all of that for nothing if he chooses to leave in free agency?

Fascinating.

I think Utah would have a much better chance resigning George, actually, if it were him, alone, there, instead of Hayward, not with him.

George wants to be the man, but in a new environment. Playing with Hayward, is not part of the equation.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I don't know where this "George can't play with other stars" came from, but it's dead wrong. You do realize that the biggest reason he'd leave Indy is because the odds of them obtaining another star are rare, right? Goes completely against everything some of you are saying. He'd absolutely love having Hayward, and even said he'd love to play with him.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

And then Hayward's number is called for the game winner ... and then again ... and then again.

He wants to be the clear leader. This is clear to me. He'll play with other guys, but, ideally, for him, he wants to be the clear leader/go-to guy. This is probably only exacerbated by the clinker he threw up in the waning moments of game four.

Hayward has no problem letting someone else take the game winner. Joe Johnson has been getting that call in the playoffs.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

Take out Exum and the 24th and then you're going to be outbid. And no, Hayward is not better than PG:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/paul_george_vs_gordon_hayward.htm

Fine, let someone outbid us.

And yes, Hayward is better than PG13. Here's the pecking order between Hayward, Butler and PG13 if you're interested:
1. Jimmy Butler
2. Gordon Hayward
3. Paul George

Proof is in the pudding. Hayward has been better all season long, his team is consistently better and both he and his team are doing better in the playoffs this year. Sorry to burst your bubble. PG13 is great, but he's not better than Gordon.

So Hayward is better because you say he's better. The only "proof" you have is that his team is better, which is the worst argument you could have used.... I guess that mean McGee is better than Towns, no? Love is better than Anthony Davis?

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-playoffs-lebron-james-chris-paul-james-harden-russell-westbrook-042217

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2703608-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-ranking-top-100

http://cavaliers.247sports.com/Gallery/NBA-2K17-ranks-the-leagues-10-best-players-in-their-end-of-seaso-52359915

And those are just in the last month. Show me something that proves Hayward is better without looking through the rosy glasses of a homer.

You counter with arbitrary fox sports, bleacher report and "cavalier.247sports" player rankings

Here's some things to chew on:

Hayward out performs PG13 in every advanced statistical category outside of rebounding % (which PG13 only wins by a small margin) according to NBA.com's stats: http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=202330&VsPlayerID=202331&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

According to basketball-reference.com, per 100 possessions, not only does Hayward essentially match or exceed PG13 in every statistical category (outside of steals per game), he has an offensive rating of 111 and defense rating of 108 while PG13 spots an offensive rating of 109 and a defensive rating of 108.
Hayward: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html#per_poss::none
PG13: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html#per_poss::none

Furthermore, Gordon has an offensive win share rating of 7.1 defensive 3.3 and overall win share rating of 10.4 while PG13 tosses in an offensive win share rating of 4.0 defensive win shares of 3.1 and an overall win share rating of 7.1. Hayward is also doing this much a lower usage rate (27.6) than PG13 (28.9)
Hayward: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html#advanced::none
PG13: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html#advanced::none

Here's the advanced stats head to head comparison for the playoffs, and this is INCLUDING the game that Hayward played sick and had to be taken out after all of about 8 minutes: http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=202330&VsPlayerID=202331&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs

As you can see, Gordon is also having a better playoff performance than PG13. And let's just not get into the clutch shooting numbers, ok? I think we've all seen plenty of memes and stats about PG13's horrible clutch shooting numbers this season that we don't need to go there.

There's plenty of other statistical evidence I could show you to prove that Hayward > PG13 but I think that's a good starting point for you. On top of that, like I said, Hayward's team in both the regular season and playoffs has far exceeded PG13's teams. So, with those combined, it's pretty clear that Hayward > PG13. Also, Hayward isn't leaving Utah while PG13 is on his way out. And Hayward hasn't been in the news causing drama by complaining about the refs and his teammates not giving him the ball. Hayward is a better for his franchise than PG13 because he doesn't bring the drama and bad leadership.

Now, with that out of the way, to whoever's point it was about not making a point about PG13 flight risk and his want to "be the guy"... I certainly brought up both those points and is one of the many reasons why I think the proposed deal is FAR too rich. Also, I think it's a good point that PG13 also refuses to play PF because that's what he'd play here (most likely). The article cited about PG13's comments about wanting to play with Hayward... ya, that's to play with Hayward with Hayward being his sidekick, not to play with Hayward beings Hayward's sidekick. In Utah, not only would PG13 be Hayward's sidekick, but he'd also be a 3rd tier sidekick after Gobert. This is Hayward and Gobert's team. They need a complimentary piece, not someone who wants to take the mantle from them.

[Trader_Joe]

Now, with that out of the way, to whoever's point it was about not making a point about PG13 flight risk and his want to "be the guy"... I certainly brought up both those points and is one of the many reasons why I think the proposed deal is FAR too rich. Also, I think it's a good point that PG13 also refuses to play PF because that's what he'd play here (most likely). The article cited about PG13's comments about wanting to play with Hayward... ya, that's to play with Hayward with Hayward being his sidekick, not to play with Hayward beings Hayward's sidekick. In Utah, not only would PG13 be Hayward's sidekick, but he'd also be a 3rd tier sidekick after Gobert. This is Hayward and Gobert's team. They need a complimentary piece, not someone who wants to take the mantle from them.

PF issue was addressed.... it would be a team of 6'8" guys (Ingles, JJ, Hayward, PG) call whoever the PF and play interchangeably which is the direction the league is going...smaller and position-less.

BTW, with Haywards' Indy roots, I'm pretty sure he would be the center of attention in Indy and the new franchise player by default. Also, I think people are trying to read the mind of PG13 with no real basis behind it and is not a valid point.

Finally I still don't see that as too rich and it's easy to she the flaws of my proposal after point A.
a. It would be done to assure Hayward and Hill resign
b. Favors is an UFA in a year and not the player he was before injuries
c. Exum has shown little development and is due for a contract in one year
d. Lyles is not a high end prospect and showed little to no improvement years 1 to 2
e. The picks are all fairly late
f. Utah still has a 1st round pick every year other than 2019 (and that would be protected)
g. Utah has 3 extra second rounders and the seconds are highly negotiable here

I can understand the salary concerns for Utah, but value wise it's pretty fair IMO.

[Winglish]

I do the deal. Gordon Hayward can play with ANYBODY as he is the ultimate team first player, as good and willing a passer as anything else. He and PG13 would be a nightmare.

I would run Hill, Hayward, George, Diaw (and/OR JJ), Gobert as my lineup, though.

[shrink]

Hill
Hayward
PG
Joe Johnson
Gobert

$25 Hill
$30 Hayward
$30 PG
$11 Joe Johnson
$21 Gobert

$11 Burkes
$7 Diaw?
------------------
$135 mil for seven players --- luxury threshold is $122.

[Cappy_Smurf]

Hill
Hayward
PG
Joe Johnson
Gobert

$25 Hill
$30 Hayward
$30 PG
$11 Joe Johnson
$21 Gobert

$11 Burkes
$7 Diaw?
------------------
$135 mil for seven players --- luxury threshold is $122.

Dude, Hayward obviously opts in this year so he can go for the really big score next year. Problem solved.


Seriously though, PG is a pipe dream, but Diaw and Burks could easily be cleared. No fair counting those guys. Diaw has a team option and Burks could be salary dumped without giving up much.

I do the deal. Gordon Hayward can play with ANYBODY as he is the ultimate team first player, as good and willing a passer as anything else. He and PG13 would be a nightmare.

I would run Hill, Hayward, George, Diaw (and/OR JJ), Gobert as my lineup, though.

Diaw is gone for sure in this scenario. Likely gone in any scenario, really.

[AingesBurner]

This last game has proven the Jazz need to swing for the fences in a trade and PG at SG is really swinging for the fences.

[Cappy_Smurf]

This last game has proven the Jazz need to swing for the fences in a trade and PG at SG is really swinging for the fences.

One game doesn't prove anything, except it wasn't quite their night. I mean, they played like crap and still had a chance to win.

[AingesBurner]

This last game has proven the Jazz need to swing for the fences in a trade and PG at SG is really swinging for the fences.

One game doesn't prove anything, except it wasn't quite their night. I mean, they played like crap and still had a chance to win.

No that game did prove our major flaw and that is having another player with legit two way play at SG.

[Kings2013]

Favors is a roast. Yet he still carries value to many who haven't caught on besides Jazz fans