Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[kulaz3000]

FWIW while I'm not convinced on Chris Paul's past or even current ceiling as measured by some statistics, I do think he'd be a relatively strong fit with Butler.

I think Rondo needs to control the ball a little *too* much to be maximized, such that it diminishes Butler, but not in a way that is maximizing the team. Jimmy is good enough to do significant playrunning every game, just not as much as a LeBron or Harden, the problem is when Jimmy has the ball, Rondo is a big liability off ball, and makes it harder for JB.

Chris Paul could run the majority of your offense, let Jimmy do 25-33% of the playmaking as well (in fact I think this is what Chris Paul has needed himself!) but when Jimmy has the ball, CP3 would not be a liability due to his excellent shooting.

But how or why he would come here, other than being friends with Wade -and Wade said he's not going to recruit 'just to have a friend on the team' - is much harder to rationalize.

I don't know about that. Chris Paul is just as ball dominate if not more than Rondo. Chris's usage rate the last 4 season is hovering around 25%, whereas Rondo is around 19%.

Now Chris Paul is more effective on the offensive end because he can do more with the ball, especially in terms of scoring, but Chris Paul needs the ball in his hands to be effective just as much as Rondo. If anything, I think Jimmy will have just as much difficulty having Chris in the back-court with him, if we are unable to put some shooters around them.

[Mbrahv0528]

FWIW while I'm not convinced on Chris Paul's past or even current ceiling as measured by some statistics, I do think he'd be a relatively strong fit with Butler.

I think Rondo needs to control the ball a little *too* much to be maximized, such that it diminishes Butler, but not in a way that is maximizing the team. Jimmy is good enough to do significant playrunning every game, just not as much as a LeBron or Harden, the problem is when Jimmy has the ball, Rondo is a big liability off ball, and makes it harder for JB.

Chris Paul could run the majority of your offense, let Jimmy do 25-33% of the playmaking as well (in fact I think this is what Chris Paul has needed himself!) but when Jimmy has the ball, CP3 would not be a liability due to his excellent shooting.

But how or why he would come here, other than being friends with Wade -and Wade said he's not going to recruit 'just to have a friend on the team' - is much harder to rationalize.

I don't know about that. Chris Paul is just as ball dominate if not more than Rondo. Chris's usage rate the last 4 season is hovering around 25%, whereas Rondo is around 19%.

Now Chris Paul is more effective on the offensive end because he can do more with the ball, especially in terms of scoring, but Chris Paul needs the ball in his hands to be effective just as much as Rondo. If anything, I think Jimmy will have just as much difficulty having Chris in the back-court with him, if we are unable to put some shooters around them.

You're failing to acknowledge that Chris Paul has never played with a player who's arguably as good as he is. His usage would almost assuredly go down because of this. I would **** love to have CP here with Jimmy in his prime. Look how good the Bulls looked with Rondo..now imagine how good they could be with a much better better player in Paul? For me, it's a no brainer if we could somehow convince him to the Bulls.

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[sh0ck]

I think I have more issues with Rondo defensively than offensively.

While I do think CP3 has gotten All-Defensive teams more-so from reputation rather than merit, I do think that he's a top notch defender at the PG position.

And to incite a pipe dream. Please see this photo of JImmy/CP3/the GOAT during the summer last season where Team Jordan played some random tourneys.

[Rerisen]

I don't know about that. Chris Paul is just as ball dominate if not more than Rondo. Chris's usage rate the last 4 season is hovering around 25%, whereas Rondo is around 19%.

Usage is kind of a bad stat for measuring Rondo's ball dominance because he doesn't shoot a lot, but it doesn't mean he doesn't hold the ball right up till the point someone else is supposed to shoot. And all the while he's holding it, formulating offense, I don't think he does a great job at getting our best player - Butler - involved, or getting him easy shots.

So its not so much that Paul would have the ball less than Rondo, Jimmy will get his touches either way, but when Jimmy does have the ball, the spacing for Jimmy to score and playmake will be so much better.

With Rondo, you might as well just let him have it all game, because when he doesn't, he isn't helping you. But if he does have it all game, the results aren't that great and on ball scorers like Wade and Butler tend to get marginalized.

[Mech Engineer]

FWIW while I'm not convinced on Chris Paul's past or even current ceiling as measured by some statistics, I do think he'd be a relatively strong fit with Butler.

I think Rondo needs to control the ball a little *too* much to be maximized, such that it diminishes Butler, but not in a way that is maximizing the team. Jimmy is good enough to do significant playrunning every game, just not as much as a LeBron or Harden, the problem is when Jimmy has the ball, Rondo is a big liability off ball, and makes it harder for JB, which in turn makes people think Jimmy stinks as a playmaker.

Chris Paul could run the majority of your offense, let Jimmy do 25-33% of the playmaking as well (in fact I think this is what Chris Paul has needed himself!) but when Jimmy has the ball, CP3 would not be a liability due to his excellent shooting.

But how or why he would come here, other than being friends with Wade -and Wade said he's not going to recruit 'just to have a friend on the team' - is much harder to rationalize.

It is a challenge to fit Chris Paul in on the Bulls with a player like Jimmy. He has never played with a ball needy star like Jimmy. Look at how Wade adjusted with Jimmy. Unless you are LeBron who overrides whatever else is on the roster, ball needy guys have a tough time adjusting in a new environment and add to that if you are old, declining when your habits are kind of set.

Guys like Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson could play without the ball and adjust on new teams/with new players. I get that the Bulls need the CP3 kind of playmaking as we saw sometimes with Rondo. But, also, the ceiling with that style is pretty low because Jimmy's off-ball play is not that great either.

That's why Westbrook would be a horrible fit next to Jimmy although they might be like the 2010 LeBron/Wade and just overwhelm everyone with their talent.

The right kind of player at PG is a Steph Curry type(atleast a poor man Steph Curry) . Good luck finding that guy though. I can think of Kyrie Irving, George Hill types who can playmake a little bit(not pure 3 and D guards like Canaan) but not playmaking wizards like CP3/Rondo.

[Rerisen]

The right kind of player at PG is a Steph Curry type(atleast a poor man Steph Curry) . Good luck finding that guy though. I can think of Kyrie Irving, George Hill types who can playmake a little bit(not pure 3 and D guards like Canaan) but not playmaking wizards like CP3/Rondo.

I think Rondo himself could work pretty good if only he shot higher volume 3s as well as mid-range.

Paul has a high IQ as a player, so you'd have to hope he'd understand he'd need to relinquish the ball a little more.

Bulls really can't be too choosy right now, they just need talent, any All-Star or better that would be interested in coming, they had better pursue, because Jimmy's prime won't be that many more years.

[TheSuzerain]

CP3 would be amazing with Butler. Don't know what you guys are talking about.

[Ice Man]

He has never played with a ball needy star like Jimmy.

Bradley Beal has the ball all the damn time when Wall is off the court, but that doesn't mean that Beal is ball needy. When Wall is on the court, Beal plays off the ball. Beal's role changes according to team needs -- when Wall is on the court, Wall is the best ball handler and he gets the ball. When he is off the court, then Beal steps up into that role.

I assume that if we had CP3 he and Butler would have a similar arrangement.

[Mech Engineer]

He has never played with a ball needy star like Jimmy.

Bradley Beal has the ball all the damn time when Wall is off the court, but that doesn't mean that Beal is ball needy. When Wall is on the court, Beal plays off the ball. Beal's role changes according to team needs -- when Wall is on the court, Wall is the best ball handler and he gets the ball. When he is off the court, then Beal steps up into that role.

I assume that if we had CP3 he and Butler would have a similar arrangement.

Beal's off-ball game is completely different than Jimmy or CP3.

[bad knees]

If Wade opts in, and the Bulls waived and stretched Rondo and Canaan, and renounced Niko, Lauvergne, Felicio, MCW and Morrow, and somehow found someone to take Payne, they would clear just enough cap space - $35 M - to give CP3 a max contract. After that, they could use to MLE and Bi-annual exception to sign players.

I'd do it in a heartbeat to get CP3.

But the only way this would work is if Wade, Jimmy and CP3 worked it out on their own before June 30, and tell GarPax, and they waive Rondo and Canaan on June 30. Because Rondo and Canaan will be fully guaranteed after June 30.

[Rerisen]

He has never played with a ball needy star like Jimmy.

Bradley Beal has the ball all the damn time when Wall is off the court, but that doesn't mean that Beal is ball needy. When Wall is on the court, Beal plays off the ball. Beal's role changes according to team needs -- when Wall is on the court, Wall is the best ball handler and he gets the ball. When he is off the court, then Beal steps up into that role.

I assume that if we had CP3 he and Butler would have a similar arrangement.

Beal's off-ball game is completely different than Jimmy or CP3.

I don't think we really know what off ball player Jimmy can be. Obviously he's not a great 3pt shooter but he hits it well enough now if open.

He played some pretty decent off ball back with Thibs. But we have to remember the PGs he's had is 3pt chucking, then trying to find his game Derrick Rose, Rondo - horrible most of the year and ruins spacing, and a merry go round of D-league level guys like MCW and Grant.

Of course Wade being out there clogging things up and holding the ball doesn't help either.

[kingkirk]

I don't know about that. Chris Paul is just as ball dominate if not more than Rondo. Chris's usage rate the last 4 season is hovering around 25%, whereas Rondo is around 19%.

Now Chris Paul is more effective on the offensive end because he can do more with the ball, especially in terms of scoring, but Chris Paul needs the ball in his hands to be effective just as much as Rondo. If anything, I think Jimmy will have just as much difficulty having Chris in the back-court with him, if we are unable to put some shooters around them.

Usage rate isn't indicative of how much the ball stays in ones hand. Steven Nash had a similar usage rate to Rondo, but he dominated the ball. Rondo does, so does Paul. Your point is correct, but usage percentage isn't the stat that proves it.

I agree, though. Jimmy and Paul would be really bad fits unless Butler is fine with adjusting his game. I don't think he would be.

[Rerisen]

Usage rate isn't indicative of how much the ball stays in ones hand. Steven Nash had a similar usage rate to Rondo, but he dominated the ball. Rondo does, so does Paul. Your point is correct, but usage percentage isn't the stat that proves it.

I agree, though. Jimmy and Paul would be really bad fits unless Butler is fine with adjusting his game. I don't think he would be.

It would be 5x better than Jimmy and Rondo which for some crazy reason a bunch of people think works and want back.

Chris Paul is getting older, he needs another perimeter ball handler that can help him at this stage.

The feed it to shooters gameplan with him has ran its course and ran into its ceiling enough times. Give it up Doc!

[realEAST]

Speaking of Paul, I think he'd be good fit - first, he is inteligent and overallskilled guy and that's what we lack the most; secondly, Jimmy showed this season he actualy works well with talented passer like Rondo (in turn, this means no Wade, of course) who can spot him cutting and get him few easy baskets that way, given there are shooters to space floor. With Paul as much more talented scorer and therefore much more unpredictible guy on off, I think him and Jimmy would complement quite well.

In some fairytale universe adding Paul and KCP, while drafting OG and retaining Niko for cheap, along dropping Wade and Rondo would result in a team I'd gladly watch night in and night out.

[CharityStripe34]

Butler paired with CP3 would be just fine, the only caveat being that they would need shooters around them. Look at Game 2 of the Celtics series when Rondo was orchestrating and dominated the ball, Jimmy had a near triple-double with 22-8-8 and superb defense. I don't think Jimmy's a huge ball-hog as some make him out to be, he is a crafty off-ball player and has become a respectable 3pt shooter. I think if he sees an All-Star of Paul's caliber coming in he'd be fine with ceding a good portion of ball-handling duties.

[Slartibartfast]

FWIW while I'm not convinced on Chris Paul's past or even current ceiling as measured by some statistics, I do think he'd be a relatively strong fit with Butler.

I think Rondo needs to control the ball a little *too* much to be maximized, such that it diminishes Butler, but not in a way that is maximizing the team. Jimmy is good enough to do significant playrunning every game, just not as much as a LeBron or Harden, the problem is when Jimmy has the ball, Rondo is a big liability off ball, and makes it harder for JB, which in turn makes people think Jimmy stinks as a playmaker.

Chris Paul could run the majority of your offense, let Jimmy do 25-33% of the playmaking as well (in fact I think this is what Chris Paul has needed himself!) but when Jimmy has the ball, CP3 would not be a liability due to his excellent shooting.

But how or why he would come here, other than being friends with Wade -and Wade said he's not going to recruit 'just to have a friend on the team' - is much harder to rationalize.

CP3 is actually one of the biggest control freaks in the league. He has every right to be, given his extraordinary efficiency, but he's not a guy who cedes control to others. Rondo's shooting makes things a lot harder on his talented teammates but he has a much more extensive history of co-existing with playmaking wings.

[Mbrahv0528]

I don't know about that. Chris Paul is just as ball dominate if not more than Rondo. Chris's usage rate the last 4 season is hovering around 25%, whereas Rondo is around 19%.

Now Chris Paul is more effective on the offensive end because he can do more with the ball, especially in terms of scoring, but Chris Paul needs the ball in his hands to be effective just as much as Rondo. If anything, I think Jimmy will have just as much difficulty having Chris in the back-court with him, if we are unable to put some shooters around them.

Usage rate isn't indicative of how much the ball stays in ones hand. Steven Nash had a similar usage rate to Rondo, but he dominated the ball. Rondo does, so does Paul. Your point is correct, but usage percentage isn't the stat that proves it.

I agree, though. Jimmy and Paul would be really bad fits unless Butler is fine with adjusting his game. I don't think he would be.

Or Paul adjusts his game to fit in with Butler (which would be entirely plausible). Paul and Butler would be a great fit.

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[kingkirk]

Or Paul adjusts his game to fit in with Butler (which would be entirely plausible). Paul and Butler would be a great fit.

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Why would Paul change for Butler when he's the better player, more experienced and will be earning double what Butler is?

He wouldn't.

[kyrv]

Usage rate isn't indicative of how much the ball stays in ones hand. Steven Nash had a similar usage rate to Rondo, but he dominated the ball. Rondo does, so does Paul. Your point is correct, but usage percentage isn't the stat that proves it.

I agree, though. Jimmy and Paul would be really bad fits unless Butler is fine with adjusting his game. I don't think he would be.

It would be 5x better than Jimmy and Rondo which for some crazy reason a bunch of people think works and want back.

Chris Paul is getting older, he needs another perimeter ball handler that can help him at this stage.

The feed it to shooters gameplan with him has ran its course and ran into its ceiling enough times. Give it up Doc!

I agree with you before, Paul taking less money for buddy ball seems like no way. If he's ring chasing, better spots.

I agree with Paul never having a wing as good as Butler. Paul is much better than Rondo as a player and fit-wise as you said. Eons better, he's a max player and Rondo is a rebound project.

[kyrv]

Or Paul adjusts his game to fit in with Butler (which would be entirely plausible). Paul and Butler would be a great fit.

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Why would Paul change for Butler when he's the better player, more experienced and will be earning double what Butler is?

He wouldn't.

Well, the question I think is, Paul has not had a wing as good as Butler, and what is better to help the team win.

As far as resume wise, with no context, should Paul change for Butler, I agree with you, bleep no. Paul is on a completely other level.