Trade Post-Mortem 2017: Eight is Enough

[The_Ghost_of_JB]

Say what you want about George winning a title but unless George plans on signing with the Warriors or Cavs he isn't winning a title for the next 5 years so does it really matter where he plays? That why it's plausible he ends up on he Lakers.

[Roddy]

When will people let this old school NBA fade into oblivion with their rebounders and rim protectors?

You mean playmakers in defense, able to box out and intimidate opponents in the paint ? Guys like Draymond Green, Tristan Thompson, Rudy Gobert...

Just watch the replay of Jazz Clippers game 7. You would pull all your hair out of your head if it was Jordan on Celtics missing all those FTs during important game 7.

Please. Jordan's FT have nothing to do with it. They were down by 16 at the start of the 4th. Jordan scored 11pts in the 4th. He was 3/9 on the FT line (which is terrible) but they don't lose on it.

On Celtics Griffin would give you 10+ rebounds every night, elite playmaking with great handles, good floor spacing and ability to switch easily on smaller players.***

***If healthy...for way more than $22 millions.

IT can do his thing without Jordan clogging the paint

Chris Paul was able to do his thing WITH Jordan. Jordan is a great pick and roll center. He moves pretty well.

$22 millions for an athletic, long, healthy center is not that bad. He is a 13pts/14rbs/2blks guy.

With Biyombo, Noah, Mozgov, Mahinmi...all over $15 millions/year.
Would you re-sign Olynyk for $15 million or take a DJ for $22 million.

[ParticleMan]

Say what you want about George winning a title but unless George plans on signing with the Warriors or Cavs he isn't winning a title for the next 5 years so does it really matter where he plays? That why it's plausible he ends up on he Lakers.

so disagree with this. george replacing amir on our team puts us into contender status immediately. (technically crowder would move to the 4).

these superteams don't last that long. how long was miami's run? or ours? guys get tired, bored, injured, etc. it happens.

[165bows]

Melo to LAC with Redick outgoing pretty much necessitates they not resign one of Blake/CP3, correct?

And if Melo is coming in, it seems pretty certain that Paul is the one staying.

[The_Ghost_of_JB]

Say what you want about George winning a title but unless George plans on signing with the Warriors or Cavs he isn't winning a title for the next 5 years so does it really matter where he plays? That why it's plausible he ends up on he Lakers.

so disagree with this. george replacing amir on our team puts us into contender status immediately. (technically crowder would move to the 4).

these superteams don't last that long. how long was miami's run? or ours? guys get tired, bored, injured, etc. it happens.

Don't you mean team Lebron? Lebrons super-team has been going on 7 years right now with no end in sight.

As for the warriors. Well this will be their third year in a row in the finals. They lock Curry and Durant up, which all signs point in that direction, they will be in the finals for the foreseeable future.

Regardless adding George still doesn't get this team past the Cavs never mind the warriors.

[ParticleMan]

Regardless adding George still doesn't get this team past the Cavs never mind the warriors.

yeah i guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. george is just a huge upgrade for our weakest link, kind of like horford was last year. i think it makes us at least even with the cavs, who don't look that great to me even if they beat up on a weak ass indy team. warriors, true, we'd be underdogs but remember how well we've played the warriors with much inferior teams. our perimeter D just matches up very well with their strengths, and they can't take advantage of our weakness on the glass. we would definitely be competitive and maybe one injury away from knocking them off.

that said, i'd rather just sign hayward than pay a small ransom for pg13...

[jmr07019]

Say what you want about George winning a title but unless George plans on signing with the Warriors or Cavs he isn't winning a title for the next 5 years so does it really matter where he plays? That why it's plausible he ends up on he Lakers.

That's like saying my car is going to depreciate in value so I might as well drive it into a tree today

[CelticsLV]

When will people let this old school NBA fade into oblivion with their rebounders and rim protectors?

You mean playmakers in defense, able to box out and intimidate opponents in the paint ? Guys like Draymond Green, Tristan Thompson, Rudy Gobert...

Just watch the replay of Jazz Clippers game 7. You would pull all your hair out of your head if it was Jordan on Celtics missing all those FTs during important game 7.

Please. Jordan's FT have nothing to do with it. They were down by 16 at the start of the 4th. Jordan scored 11pts in the 4th. He was 3/9 on the FT line (which is terrible) but they don't lose on it.

On Celtics Griffin would give you 10+ rebounds every night, elite playmaking with great handles, good floor spacing and ability to switch easily on smaller players.***

***If healthy...for way more than $22 millions.

IT can do his thing without Jordan clogging the paint

Chris Paul was able to do his thing WITH Jordan. Jordan is a great pick and roll center. He moves pretty well.

$22 millions for an athletic, long, healthy center is not that bad. He is a 13pts/14rbs/2blks guy.

With Biyombo, Noah, Mozgov, Mahinmi...all over $15 millions/year.
Would you re-sign Olynyk for $15 million or take a DJ for $22 million.

Being -16 and going for 6 of 15 from the line definitely had "nothing" to do with Jordan.

Warriors dismantle Clippers everytime with or without Jordan. If you want to be the eternal 2nd place then Jordan is what you need indeed. You waste valuable assets + cap space on a guy that doesn't change jack *** in grand scheme of things.

How about you don't waste a single asset and just use cap space for major upgrade in Griffin instead?

Do you undersatand that Jordan scenario deny us the ability to use cap space for major upgrade? How do you add more help? You will trade away everything - BK17, BK18, Crowder, Bradley, Brown just to get Jordan and another all-star?

Or the better plan is to trade only some of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, BK picks for an all-star and then use cap room for another difference maker?

[Slartibartfast]

Regardless adding George still doesn't get this team past the Cavs never mind the warriors.

yeah i guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. george is just a huge upgrade for our weakest link, kind of like horford was last year. i think it makes us at least even with the cavs, who don't look that great to me even if they beat up on a weak ass indy team. warriors, true, we'd be underdogs but remember how well we've played the warriors with much inferior teams. our perimeter D just matches up very well with their strengths, and they can't take advantage of our weakness on the glass. we would definitely be competitive and maybe one injury away from knocking them off.

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

[Valid]

Regardless adding George still doesn't get this team past the Cavs never mind the warriors.

yeah i guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. george is just a huge upgrade for our weakest link, kind of like horford was last year. i think it makes us at least even with the cavs, who don't look that great to me even if they beat up on a weak ass indy team. warriors, true, we'd be underdogs but remember how well we've played the warriors with much inferior teams. our perimeter D just matches up very well with their strengths, and they can't take advantage of our weakness on the glass. we would definitely be competitive and maybe one injury away from knocking them off.

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

I mean, that has a lot to do with the fact that we are a 1-seed this year with Horford as opposed to being a 5-seed last year without him. So, yes; Horford did make us noticeably better.

[Slartibartfast]

yeah i guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. george is just a huge upgrade for our weakest link, kind of like horford was last year. i think it makes us at least even with the cavs, who don't look that great to me even if they beat up on a weak ass indy team. warriors, true, we'd be underdogs but remember how well we've played the warriors with much inferior teams. our perimeter D just matches up very well with their strengths, and they can't take advantage of our weakness on the glass. we would definitely be competitive and maybe one injury away from knocking them off.

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

I mean, that has a lot to do with the fact that we are a 1-seed this year with Horford as opposed to being a 5-seed last year without him. So, yes; Horford did make us noticeably better.

We won more games with a crappier MOV/SRS - we'd be a 3 seed if it was last year. The East got weaker, we didn't get much better.

[jmr07019]

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

Playoff Horford has been a major, major upgrade from playoff Sully.

Not gonna get into IT vs Teague but we obviously disagree about that one too

Edit: AB has been an upgrade from Turner too

[ParticleMan]

i'm having trouble seeing how anyone doesn't think we are light years ahead of where we were offensively last year. not only in the playoffs but the regular season as well. to me this is essentially directly attributable to horford. the bulls tried the same strategy as last year against IT, and though it worked for a couple of games (with our team in a mental funk anyways), brad was actually able to adjust and make the bulls pay dearly for continuing to do that. last year that simply wasn't possible.

our team had way more injury issues during the season, plus we actually got worse rebounding with sully gone, and yet we still managed to win 53 games and get the top seed.

[Slartibartfast]

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

Playoff Horford has been a major, major upgrade from playoff Sully.

Not gonna get into IT vs Teague but we obviously disagree about that one too

Offensively Horford has been great. But we are noticeably worse defensively. Not really a Sully thing (he was too fat to defend by the end of the season) as much as an Amir decline thing, but the point is we're not really better than last year, just healthier with weaker, unhealthier opponents.

Put us up against last year's Hawks and are we favorites? I don't think so.

[Roddy]

Being -16 and going for 6 of 15 from the line definitely had "nothing" to do with Jordan.

He was 3/6 at the start of the 4th quarter. So no, being -16 had nothing to do with Jordan's FTs.

Warriors dismantle Clippers everytime with or without Jordan. If you want to be the eternal 2nd place then Jordan is what you need indeed. You waste valuable assets + cap space on a guy that doesn't change jack *** in grand scheme of things.

If they dismantle the Clippers with Jordan, they ALSO dismantle the Clippers with Griffin, right ???

Do you undersatand that Jordan scenario deny us the ability to use cap space for major upgrade? How do you add more help? You will trade away everything - BK17, BK18, Crowder, Bradley, Brown just to get Jordan and another all-star?

Or the better plan is to trade only some of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, BK picks for an all-star and then use cap room for another difference maker?

Major upgrade ? Who ? Butler or PG13 ? Sorry, I don't buy it. We are not contenders with one of them, while losing an elite defender who can score (AB), a promising rookie (Brown) and a top 3 pick in a talented draft.

Don't get me wrong, I like Griffin. But I would not give a max contract to an injury prone player. For the second year in a row, he was injured during the playoffs. He has played 67,35 and 61 games in the last three seasons.

[Valid]

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

I mean, that has a lot to do with the fact that we are a 1-seed this year with Horford as opposed to being a 5-seed last year without him. So, yes; Horford did make us noticeably better.

We won more games with a crappier MOV/SRS - we'd be a 3 seed if it was last year. The East got weaker, we didn't get much better.

You're acting like the difference between a 3-seed and a 5-seed isn't a big deal when it's the difference between homecourt advantage in the first round and avoiding the 1-seed in the second round. We are markedly better than last year. It's not even debatable. We also were ravaged by injuries during the regular season, which unquestionably knocked our win total down.

[Homerclease]

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

I mean, that has a lot to do with the fact that we are a 1-seed this year with Horford as opposed to being a 5-seed last year without him. So, yes; Horford did make us noticeably better.

We won more games with a crappier MOV/SRS - we'd be a 3 seed if it was last year. The East got weaker, we didn't get much better.

I disagree with this, we were a much healthier club last season as opposed to this. Our bench got exposed over the course of the season causing the Celtics to blow far too many big leads. This is definatly a better team than last year when all hands are on deck, regardless of SRS

[Slartibartfast]

I mean, that has a lot to do with the fact that we are a 1-seed this year with Horford as opposed to being a 5-seed last year without him. So, yes; Horford did make us noticeably better.

We won more games with a crappier MOV/SRS - we'd be a 3 seed if it was last year. The East got weaker, we didn't get much better.

You're acting like the difference between a 3-seed and a 5-seed isn't a big deal when it's the difference between homecourt advantage in the first round and avoiding the 1-seed in the second round. We are markedly better than last year. It's not even debatable.

Well, MOV and SRS say it is completely debatable. Losing the first 2 to Chicago (a significantly worse team than Atlanta) before they lost Rondo would suggest a lot as well. Having our small-ball group get roasted until the Wizards lost Morris shouldn't be discounted either.

Not saying that you can't make a good case for this team. Horford's injury unquestionably hurt us early in the season (then again so did David Lee's presence early last season). We have a better top 4 this year, which is important for the playoffs.

But you can't declare that it's "not even debatable" without completely ignoring all the counter-evidence.

[CelticsLV]

Being -16 and going for 6 of 15 from the line definitely had "nothing" to do with Jordan.

He was 3/6 at the start of the 4th quarter. So no, being -16 had nothing to do with Jordan's FTs.

Warriors dismantle Clippers everytime with or without Jordan. If you want to be the eternal 2nd place then Jordan is what you need indeed. You waste valuable assets + cap space on a guy that doesn't change jack *** in grand scheme of things.

If they dismantle the Clippers with Jordan, they ALSO dismantle the Clippers with Griffin, right ???

Do you undersatand that Jordan scenario deny us the ability to use cap space for major upgrade? How do you add more help? You will trade away everything - BK17, BK18, Crowder, Bradley, Brown just to get Jordan and another all-star?

Or the better plan is to trade only some of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, BK picks for an all-star and then use cap room for another difference maker?

Major upgrade ? Who ? Butler or PG13 ? Sorry, I don't buy it. We are not contenders with one of them, while losing an elite defender who can score (AB), a promising rookie (Brown) and a top 3 pick in a talented draft.

Don't get me wrong, I like Griffin. But I would not give a max contract to an injury prone player. For the second year in a row, he was injured during the playoffs. He has played 67,35 and 61 games in the last three seasons.

And you think Clippers GM will not ask you for Brown, Crowder or one of BK picks? Sorry, I don't buy it.

I rather let Olynyk walk and use cap space on upgrade that fits Brad's system rather than waste assets on player that has shot FTs below 40% for the last 2 playoffs and has never even cracked 50% during playoffs. We need more options on offense + rebounding, NOT more rebounds, less options on offense and a liability on the FT line.

[jmr07019]

Except we didn't get that much better by adding Horford. The only thing that's different about this postseason so far is we're healthier than last year and our match-ups are more favorable.

PG would be a huge addition, but not enough to be a true contender. It's not like he was toiling with a god-awful roster this year. He had a very solid 1 in Jeff Teague, a very good up and coming center in Turner and some solid veteran roleplayers in Thad and Miles. they even got a throwback series out of Lance and they got broomed, with LBJ showing no ill effects from PG's defense (which has declined).

That team had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as ours.

The road to contention is not tripling down on smallball IMHO. If we're not adding a bonafide MVP type as the swing 4 (LBJ/Kawhi/KD), we're still going to have defensive issues without the firepower to take out the real heavyweights.

Playoff Horford has been a major, major upgrade from playoff Sully.

Not gonna get into IT vs Teague but we obviously disagree about that one too

Offensively Horford has been great. But we are noticeably worse defensively. Not really a Sully thing (he was too fat to defend by the end of the season) as much as an Amir decline thing, but the point is we're not really better than last year, just healthier with weaker, unhealthier opponents.

Put us up against last year's Hawks and are we favorites? I don't think so.

Last year's playoffs minute totals:
1. IT 220
2. Turner 214
3. Crowder 197
4. Smart 193
5. Jerebko 162
6. Amir 134
7. Rozier 99
8. Sully 81
9. Hunter 41
10. Zeller 38

Minute Totals from Bulls Series:
1. Bradley 216
2. IT 209
3. Horford 203
4. Crowder 203
5. Kelly 179
6. Smart 116
7. Gerald 89
8. Rozier 88
9. Jerebko 53
10. Amir 33

Bradley, Horford and KO did not make top 10 in minutes played last year. First round this year they played 598 minutes and were 3 of our top 5 players in mpg. Last year Turner, Jerebko and Amir combined for 510 minutes and were 3 of our top 6 players in mpg. The upgrade at the top of our rotation from last year to this year is huge. And we still won 2 games last year. So agree to disagree that we wouldn't beat last year's Hawk's.