2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[ISayshowmee]

With all due respect to Isiah Thomas, AI was much better. But then again, at this point, it is perhaps unfair to Thomas as he is on his way to reaching his prime. We will wait and see....but if you want an answer today ---- NO !!

[Doctor MJ]

Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

Translation:

People many years ago who had no concept of the true price of inefficiency believed a ridiculous thing, so now we must all believe this ridiculous thing until humanity annihilates itself.


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[sikma42]

Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

Translation:

People many years ago who had no concept of the true price of inefficiency believed a ridiculous thing, so now we must all believe this ridiculous thing until humanity annihilates itself.


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But you understand the price!!! Not the NBA coaches


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[OkcSinceSGA]

Iverson was getting sent to the floor whenever he went to the paint while Isaiah gets a foul call for getting looked at. Denying the rule changes and difference in physicality that favors perimeter players today compared to one of the most brutal defensive eras in basketball is just absurd.

That has more to do with the fact that Isaiah is nowhere near as reckless as Iverson and didn't go to the rim as much. That's a playstyle difference just as much as it was an era difference. Sure, hard fouls/flagrant fouls were worse, but that doesn't have much weight in the gap here in efficiency. Unless you think periodic hard fouls affect TS% tremendously. Iverson just didn't play smart and didn't have the shot to take pressure off of himself more like.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

So popularity, not logic and data should settle this?

All star game is the popularity contest. MVP is awarded to the most valuable player.

I can name at least 5 MVP's in my 18 years or so watching basketball heavily that shouldn't of gotten it. An award that is constantly riddled with players not getting it due to "fatigue" etc is not the standard bearer. How many more MVP should Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron really have etc? It's hardly an indication of best player or even most valuable.

[skones]

I'm waiting for the common sense. Why is 2017 Isaiah not better than Iverson's best?

Is your evidence purely statistical? Because if it is, you're opening up a can of worms with regards to comparing players from different eras.

Open the can of worms. Because the era argument is endlessly circular as we've seen. Wilt would be DeAndre Jordan in 2017 blah blah. The reality here is Iverson gets a pass because he was a tough guy. Because pure, objective data is hard to overcome, even if you try to compensate for era. As I said early I see handchecking constantly now and it's never called. I saw a huge resurgence in it about 2 or 3 years ago and wondered why refs stopped calling it.

In watching IT play it's not wide open stuff. It's a lot of shots made with contact or that are acrobatic in nature. He's not just being left alone. He's getting hit.

So your answer is yes? A bevy of other comparisons between high profile players, which would look ludicrous, can be made to make a current player look much better. The weight on efficiency in todays game along with the evolution of the three point shot changes everything when comparing statistical data.

You asked for data to support an argument. I'm telling you that data leans towards modern era players. Seems you stacked the argument towards your position from the start. That's what bias is.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but what you asked for presents a major flaw for arguing a case.

[Doctor MJ]

Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

I'm glad you made the thread by have to say:

Defense does matter.


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[jonjames]

Yes he is..the efficiency in which he scores at high clip is simply too much to ignore and leading that marginally talented Celtics team as #1 seed over a stacked cavs team led by arguably the best player in basketball is impressive to say the least. Iverson is obviously the bigger name and nostalgia may cloud ppls judgment and have some bias towards him..but back to original premise if looked at facts objectively..Thomas is slightly better than Iverson best season (01) and thats only bc Iverson went to the final that year.

[Slava]

Didn't Iverson shoot below the league average TS for many seasons in his prime? His MVP season TS% was exactly the same as the league average, which is pretty damning for a player whose contribution is scoring.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Is your evidence purely statistical? Because if it is, you're opening up a can of worms with regards to comparing players from different eras.

Open the can of worms. Because the era argument is endlessly circular as we've seen. Wilt would be DeAndre Jordan in 2017 blah blah. The reality here is Iverson gets a pass because he was a tough guy. Because pure, objective data is hard to overcome, even if you try to compensate for era. As I said early I see handchecking constantly now and it's never called. I saw a huge resurgence in it about 2 or 3 years ago and wondered why refs stopped calling it.

In watching IT play it's not wide open stuff. It's a lot of shots made with contact or that are acrobatic in nature. He's not just being left alone. He's getting hit.

So your answer is yes? A bevy of other comparisons between high profile players, which would look ludicrous, can be made to make a current player look much better. The weight on efficiency in todays game along with the evolution of the three point shot changes everything when comparing statistical data.

You asked for data to support an argument. I'm telling you that data leans towards modern era players. Seems you stacked the argument towards your position from the start. That's what bias is.

I'm open minded to the concept, but it makes me wonder why plenty of players from the 90s and 00s had elite efficiency which still holds up today. Did physical basketball take 10% off of Steve Nash's efficiency? The problem with your argument is that you start looking at other players and realize Iverson was just unusually inefficient and that it wasn't a league wide trend.

[madmaxmedia]

The 3-ball has changed the NBA so much and makes this a difficult comparison.


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[Doctor MJ]

Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

Translation:

People many years ago who had no concept of the true price of inefficiency believed a ridiculous thing, so now we must all believe this ridiculous thing until humanity annihilates itself.


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But you understand the price!!! Not the NBA coaches


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Please make elaborate with a clear tone.

What's your point?


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[SH0KASE]

He is better shooter and manipulator of the game. They need to stop giving him calls because he is small. Dude initiates contact and gets the call every time.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

I'm glad you made the thread by have to say:

Defense does matter.


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I'm not meaning to say it's worthless. More that it's being weighted unfairly against IT when PG defense was never the main role for them. But thanks for the response, I do see your point.

[ISayshowmee]

With due respect to the OP, What if the question was ---- If you are starting a team today, who will be your PG --- Isiah or AI ?

For me ....AI !!! He always played with that 'edge'......he had that 'attitude' in him that he had something to prove each game.

[OkcSinceSGA]

He is better shooter and manipulator of the game. They need to stop giving him calls because he is small. Dude initiates contact and gets the call every time.

How much contact did Iverson initiate? Wasn't he known for that?

[Mujahydeen]

Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence.

I agree.

Both provide a ton of points (IT 31 points per 36 minutes, AI circa 27 per 36 minutes in his best scoring years), the main difference is Thomas does it on elite efficiency (63% TS), Iverson on below-average or average at best (between 49 and 53% TS).

Iverson was still a much much better defender, but not enough better to cover for the huge gap in scoring volume and efficiency.

[Jkam31]

This might be where I delete my account for a while, moronic


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[StupidDopeSTAR]

AI didnt need 5,000 picks per game. He went at the defense tooth and nail.
All that jumping into ppl and getting fouls
IT will never be greater than AI until he takes 4 Stiffs to a finals and gets a game.
CASE CLOSED.

[OkcSinceSGA]

This thread isn't easy for me. On a personal level I'm team Iverson. I like IT but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I just want to address the unfair treatment he's getting. A 5'8 player just averaged 30 ppg on 60% TS while leading his team to the 1 seed over LeBron. It should be a bigger story than it is.