2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[Forbes]

Iverson making the finals shouldn't be held against Isaiah. Did AI ever have to get through someone like LeBron to reach the Finals??

Lebron was in his early career when AI was playing, so no.

But he did have to fight through, many times might I add, a prime Vince Carter, prime TMAC, prime Ray Allen and Sam Cassell in Milwaukee, a ridiculously good Pistons team of the early 2000s that won a championship with prime Richard Hamilton, Ben Wallace, and Chauncey Billups, prime Baron Davis (whom AI dropped 55 points on by the way on a playoff game), prime Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, etc.

That's a fighting man's resume. Not Isaiah Thomas possibly facing Lebron once in the next round lol.

His 01 run was pretty pathetic in terms of competition. Let's be real. Pacers were terrible, Raptors had weak supporting cast, even compared to Sixers and even that went to 7 games. Bucks also took them to 7. Then they got smoked 4-1 by a juggernaut team.

No way, Iversons teams never belonged in the playoffs. We all know this. It was all him dragging the team. His presence on the floor is what kept defenses on there toes. People were afraid of this man and he wasn't even a good shooter.

I don't see how you can discount Iverson's talent. He was remarkable.

[CarMalone]

Iverson put up 26 PPG as a 32 year old on great efficiency in 07/08. Prime Iverson in today's era would be the best scorer in the league imo.

In 2008, Iverson's per36 ppg was 22.8ppg which would put him 32nd in the NBA this season. Again, Iverson's career per36 ppg is 23.3. Only one of Iverson's per36ppg seasons would even rank in the top 10 in the NBA this season. He was a good scorer, but he largely benefited from heavy usage.

Kobe Bryant in his MVP season did not have a top 10 PER. Are you willing to continue this silly argument?


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I'm not sure what your point is... Bill Russell in his MVP season did not have a top 10 per36 ppg either. That, just like Kobe Bryant, has no relevance to Iverson's scoring ability.

You're the one that said that Iverson would be the "best scorer in the league" today and I pointed out using facts that this is unlikely based on Iverson's actual production.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Lebron was in his early career when AI was playing, so no.

But he did have to fight through, many times might I add, a prime Vince Carter, prime TMAC, prime Ray Allen and Sam Cassell in Milwaukee, a ridiculously good Pistons team of the early 2000s that won a championship with prime Richard Hamilton, Ben Wallace, and Chauncey Billups, prime Baron Davis (whom AI dropped 55 points on by the way on a playoff game), prime Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, etc.

That's a fighting man's resume. Not Isaiah Thomas possibly facing Lebron once in the next round lol.

His 01 run was pretty pathetic in terms of competition. Let's be real. Pacers were terrible, Raptors had weak supporting cast, even compared to Sixers and even that went to 7 games. Bucks also took them to 7. Then they got smoked 4-1 by a juggernaut team.

No way, Iversons teams never belonged in the playoffs. We all know this. It was all him dragging the team. His presence on the floor is what kept defenses on there toes. People were afraid of this man and he wasn't even a good shooter.

I don't see how you can discount Iverson's talent. He was remarkable.

You're talking about all these players/teams had to get through while not realizing how pathetic the east was. The east right now is actually much stronger.

[Forbes]

Lebron was in his early career when AI was playing, so no.

But he did have to fight through, many times might I add, a prime Vince Carter, prime TMAC, prime Ray Allen and Sam Cassell in Milwaukee, a ridiculously good Pistons team of the early 2000s that won a championship with prime Richard Hamilton, Ben Wallace, and Chauncey Billups, prime Baron Davis (whom AI dropped 55 points on by the way on a playoff game), prime Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, etc.

That's a fighting man's resume. Not Isaiah Thomas possibly facing Lebron once in the next round lol.

Agreed

The East back then was way stronger than it is now IMO. All these East playoff teams are a facade now. The only really contender is the Cavs. We all know if the Cavs somehow do not make the finals, the East team that makes it is getting dismantled.

Wat? Lol. The east was awful back then in early 00s lol. The Pistons were what the Cavs are now. Basically a lock to smash the east every year, although LeBron obviously ended that pretty quick.

Eh, the stars of the East back then are better than the ones in the East now. Although I Understand the game is more teams oriented. But I'm sure we can agree having a star makes a large difference on a team. Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, TMac.

Iverson battled through Vince and Ray Allen(Cassel and Robinson) that year in 7 games series. It was not easy beating teams with players that can take over like that.

Just my opinion, I feel the East is pretty weak right now in terms of star power.

[Xherdan 23]

I love AI so I'm probably at least a bit biased, but I think he was just the better player in a worse situation.

All the stats are in Thomas's favor but watching both of them I just don't see it.

Maybe it's the nostalgia talking but I never saw anyone play with more fire than AI. Sure, he wasn't a great outside shooter and took a ton of midrange jumpers, but I believe he would be much more efficient in today's league.

I have a very hard time believing that this historic PG season (Harden, Westbrook, Thomas) is because there are more ATG players than ever before and not because the situation in the league is different.

The spacing and the league going smaller opens up the paint for quick guards like AI and IT, and players work on their 3pt shot from a much younger age.

Isaiah on the Kings wasn't this efficiency god, but he's in a situation now that allowed him to become much more efficient.

When I think about Iverson's career I often think about LeBron in the '15 finals - the stats say he wasn't very efficient but watching this series shows it was a heroic performance and I believe AI's career was the same.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Agreed

The East back then was way stronger than it is now IMO. All these East playoff teams are a facade now. The only really contender is the Cavs. We all know if the Cavs somehow do not make the finals, the East team that makes it is getting dismantled.

Wat? Lol. The east was awful back then in early 00s lol. The Pistons were what the Cavs are now. Basically a lock to smash the east every year, although LeBron obviously ended that pretty quick.

Eh, the stars of the East back then are better than the ones in the East now. Although I Understand the game is more teams oriented. But I'm sure we can agree having a star makes a large difference on a team. Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, TMac.

Iverson battled through Vince and Ray Allen(Cassel and Robinson) that year in 7 games series. It was not easy beating teams with players that can take over like that.

Just my opinion, I feel the East is pretty weak right now in terms of star power.

That's nostalgia talking man. For example Giannis this year was better than all of those players in say 01. Better than Iverson, better than Tmac, better than VC, better than Ray Allen.

[Forbes]

His 01 run was pretty pathetic in terms of competition. Let's be real. Pacers were terrible, Raptors had weak supporting cast, even compared to Sixers and even that went to 7 games. Bucks also took them to 7. Then they got smoked 4-1 by a juggernaut team.

No way, Iversons teams never belonged in the playoffs. We all know this. It was all him dragging the team. His presence on the floor is what kept defenses on there toes. People were afraid of this man and he wasn't even a good shooter.

I don't see how you can discount Iverson's talent. He was remarkable.

You're talking about all these players/teams had to get through while not realizing how pathetic the east was. The east right now is actually much stronger.

My thing is, where is the strength? Cavs and Boston(who is definitely in need of another star)

After that, maybe the Wizards, mayyybe.

But again I'm just putting more focus on the players back then. Because the east was full of one man shows.

[jbk1234]

Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

How many free throws would AI have attempted if the game was called this way when he played and would that number be smaller than infinity?

[desi tmac91]

No, Iverson in this era with the current rules would be on another level. Remember he played in a slow paced era with hand checking and 7 foot shot blockers lurking in the paint.

AI is the most disrespected star ever probably. SMH

[lamscott]

Allen Iverson was a better player. His skill set was much higher and his teammates were much worse. Geiger, Aaron Mckie were the top two players during the Sixers glory years.

Thomas finally found a home in Boston, lets wait a little bit. His previous stints at the Kings and the Suns did not sniff at Iverson's doorag.

[DoItALL9]

Would say that Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Tracy McGrady also?

[Forbes]

Wat? Lol. The east was awful back then in early 00s lol. The Pistons were what the Cavs are now. Basically a lock to smash the east every year, although LeBron obviously ended that pretty quick.

Eh, the stars of the East back then are better than the ones in the East now. Although I Understand the game is more teams oriented. But I'm sure we can agree having a star makes a large difference on a team. Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, TMac.

Iverson battled through Vince and Ray Allen(Cassel and Robinson) that year in 7 games series. It was not easy beating teams with players that can take over like that.

Just my opinion, I feel the East is pretty weak right now in terms of star power.

That's nostalgia talking man. For example Giannis this year was better than all of those players in say 01. Better than Iverson, better than Tmac, better than VC, better than Ray Allen.

Lmao it could be nostalgia... but Giannis' better than Iverson I have to question. I don't think Giannis' actual impact on the game is there yet.

[Snotbubbles]

Another, we missed out on Iverson's real potential. He had 0 offensive talent around him on the Sixers. You're lying if you never felt bad for the dude lol. Eric Snow, Aaron Mckie, Raja Bell lol wtf? This is what Iverson DRAGGGEDDDDD to the finals. That team had no business there. Granted they were probably good on defense but lord give Iverson a break.

I wish Iverson had 3 solid and consistent outside threats.

With that team, I can't believe the Sixers won 56 games, let alone make it to the Finals. Dikembe Mutumbo, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Jumaine Jones. Man that's ugly, but still one of the best times this city has ever been through.

[ShazamDaShiznt]

Thomas at least has teammates who can score too.

er, does he?

I think avery bradley is great, and smart and crowder are full of hustle, but beyond bradley being ok on open 3s that's not much scoring. Horford is ok but hardly a big scorer, what was he, 11ppg?

the celtics offensive ratings utterly plummet when IT is off the floor.

if it suited people to do so they would easily get away with saying IT was the only scorer on his team.

since we are comparing IT with AI yes IT has at least somebody who can score, let's not act like al horford is non factor on offense like dikembe was in his days. He also got bradley who can legit score. AI was pretty much given bunch of role players and bench warmers and got a green light to score at will. For a a 6ft guy to take THAT much load on offense was unheard of before back in the year 2000

[antonac]

I think there's a couple of factors to consider in rating the two, in all honesty I think it would be hard for IT to overtake AI on a purely all-time basis, AI just has too many seasons of being effective, but peak is an interesting argument.

I think it's pretty easy to argue that IT's value has never been correctly estimated. In retrospect the Kings and the Suns allowed themselves to get completely robbed in the trades involving him, he's made both GM's look like mugs. Even last year people conceded he was good but no one saw this season coming, then in the RS people said he'd be exposed in the play-offs, I think it's absolutely clear that has not been the case, even if they celtics do end up swept by cleveland.

so it's pretty reasonable to assume that we're still undervaluing IT, why would we all of a sudden now be getting it right after countless seasons getting it wrong?

That's not a problem AI has ever had, first impressions and narratives matter in people's heads. If you come in as a no.1 pick you're automatically given the benefit of the doubt, AI got about 40mins nearly every season he was in the league, isaiah has never scored below 20ppg if he was given at least 30. I don't think players should be punished by per 36 minutes stats mind, I feel if you're on the court doing something you deserve your due over someone that just statistically should be doing it, but AI was given considerably more opportunities to achieve what he achieved than IT and it's to IT's immense credit he was able to actually change people's minds about his value.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Eh, the stars of the East back then are better than the ones in the East now. Although I Understand the game is more teams oriented. But I'm sure we can agree having a star makes a large difference on a team. Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, TMac.

Iverson battled through Vince and Ray Allen(Cassel and Robinson) that year in 7 games series. It was not easy beating teams with players that can take over like that.

Just my opinion, I feel the East is pretty weak right now in terms of star power.

That's nostalgia talking man. For example Giannis this year was better than all of those players in say 01. Better than Iverson, better than Tmac, better than VC, better than Ray Allen.

Lmao it could be nostalgia... but Giannis' better than Iverson I have to question. I don't think Giannis' actual impact on the game is there yet.

His historic all around raw+metric stats paint a different picture. His impact is definitely there. He's a maniac on both ends.

[Hipster Doofus]

The early 2000 Raptors and Magic don't sound all that competitive, the current day Washington Wizards would whoop those teams.

Most of those players you listed were the only good player on their team, and outside of 2001 AI barely beat any of them. For all the talk about how bad Iverson's roster was, it was much better than most of the other teams in his conference.

Eh, you're comparing different historical periods with different players. How can we really know? We can't.

And yes, all those players were the only good players on their teams. And who's the only good player on the Celtics today? Isaiah Thomas. That's it.

Some things never change. That's how teams always have been, and always will be. They'll have one or two good players. So I'm not sure what the argument there is. Do you expect a team to have 5 good players? If that's the case, watch the all-star game every February.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I think there's a couple of factors to consider in rating the two, in all honesty I think it would be hard for IT to overtake AI on a purely all-time basis, AI just has too many seasons of being effective, but peak is an interesting argument.

I think it's pretty easy to argue that IT's value has never been correctly estimated. In retrospect the Kings and the Suns allowed themselves to get completely robbed in the trades involving him, he's made both GM's look like mugs. Even last year people conceded he was good but no one saw this season coming, then in the RS people said he'd be exposed in the play-offs, I think it's absolutely clear that has not been the case, even if they celtics do end up swept by cleveland.

so it's pretty reasonable to assume that we're still undervaluing IT, why would we all of a sudden now be getting it right after countless seasons getting it wrong?

That's not a problem AI has ever had, first impressions and narratives matter in people's heads. If you come in as a no.1 pick you're automatically given the benefit of the doubt, AI got about 40mins nearly every season he was in the league, isaiah has never scored below 20ppg if he was given at least 30. I don't think players should be punished by per 36 minutes stats mind, I feel if you're on the court doing something you deserve your due over someone that just statistically should be doing it, but AI was given considerably more opportunities to achieve what he achieved than IT and it's to IT's immense credit he was able to actually change people's minds about his value.

Great post.

[Laure]

Iverson led his team to the Finals with a cast comparable to what Thomas has now. If Thomas makes the finals with this group, then yes, he has a case.
Until then, he still has one series win and a small sample size of high scoring.

Yea. Because **** 40 win teams like Pacers+ worse than Sixers supporting cast Raptors+shorthanded Bucks team is super impressive.

Still way more than Thomas has achieved. Thomas won against an underwhelming Bulls team and who else? Wizards would be a good scalp, so let's go from there, if he help Celtics close out this team.

Until then, you're overreacting.

[primecougar]

It's not a coincidence that as soon as the rules changed, Iverson in his first full season with Denver put up 28 on 56-57% Ts. This is an older iverson that had lost a lot of his speed and quickness.

That Denver team missed melo for a chunk of time and were still starting a couple of non shooters which clogged the paint.


Isiah Thomas is surrounded by shooters and with the extremely generous calls he gets, of course he will be more efficient than a early 00s star when the def was a different beast.

Put prime iverson in todays spread floors with shooters all around and ticky tack foul calls, he would be extremely efficient as well.