2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[Mumbles]

Yes, with a more spaced floor and different perimeter rules, iverson would find more space, but before we get to anointing him, remember that he was at his peak in the early 00's, an era at the time criticized by former greats for being too soft on perimeter calls compared to times before. And he also played well into the late 00's when he shoulda still been in his prime but fell off.



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Hall of Famers don't need to be anointed in any context. Their names speak for themselves and they transcend eras. Their play on the court & overall impact on the game has earned the respect and afforded them the right to be looked at with high regard. Allen Iverson is a Hall of Famer. Thomas isn't sitting at that table.

I remember young Iverson challenging big men at the rim with reckless abandon, dunking on dudes. IT is able to consistently get foul shots from quasi-contact euro-steps. Call AI overrated but it's going extra do think that he wouldn't have been a monster in this era of smaller guards.

[HeartBreakKid]

That makes no sense. IVERSON was a great player, you numbers guys are taking this to another level.

So his biggest strength was scoring but he missed shots at an alarming rate. And other than one great defensive team coached by a HOFer, he never had any team success. Yet he was a great player.

Iverson was grossly overrated and your post only reaffirms my opinion

So are we just gonna ignore the fact that the Lakers teamed rolled Portland, Sacto and the Spurs while Iverson single handedly got a W in game one of the FINALS? overrated you say?

The Lakers rolled the Sixers also, so who cares?

[Braggins]

What do you think IT's efficiency numbers would look like if he was playing on the 76ers during that era instead of Iverson? How can you discount the fact that both the rules changes and the evolution of modern offenses has been tremendously beneficial to small guards and efficiency in general. Imagine IT playing in a bruiser era with no offensive talent or anything resembling the shooting/spacing he has around him now. Does anything think he could have had the impact Iverson had in that era? Does anyone really think if you swapped him and Iverson's place in time that IT would lead those 76ers teams anywhere near the finals?

Anyone who understands basketball and saw Iverson play (even if they aren't particularly a fan) realizes what Iverson could do playing in this era in the situation that IT is in. He would absolutely shred defenses to the extent that Westbrook does and possibly even more so. Younger people don't realize that Iverson, despite all his flaws and bad habits he ended developing throughout his career, was one of the most talented guards the league has ever seen and he was in the god tier of the freakish athletes that have played in the NBA (professional sports in general tbh). There isn't a player in the league today that is faster or quicker with the ball than Iverson was at his peak. If a young Iverson came into the league today and a modern coach managed to get through to him he could be a top 3-5 player, hed be an all-star and put up fantastic stats regardless.

IT's TS% would be worse in 2000 just like Iverson's TS% would be better in 2017. League percentages has risen over that time

But Thomas was still among the league leaders in TS% this season while Iverson had a TS% well below average for most of his career including his MVP season. So relatively speaking, one of them is efficient while the other is not. That's just a fact.

This ignores circumstances like teammates. Iverson's Philly teams were generally a dreadful situation for a go to scorers offensive efficiency. He had extremely poor offensive talent and shooting around him by even that eras standard. IT has decent overall offensive talent around him and premium spacing. Hes also playing in one of the better systems in the league. IT's situation benefits him even relative to most his contemporary piers. Iverson was disadvantaged in this regard even by the standard of his era.

The era differences disproportionately effects small guards. IT is playing in an era that is well suited for small guards, which is part of the reason he is able to be so efficient relative to his pears. Iversons size was much more of a disadvantage in his era than it would be now. IT would not likely be among the league leaders in efficiency in Iverson's era and definitely not if he was playing in Iverson's circumstances. I don't think Iverson would necessarily be as efficient in this era as Thomas, but he would still be a better overall due to advantages he has in other areas (size/athleticism/length/motor/defense).

[Edrees]

Iverson making the finals shouldn't be held against Isaiah. Did AI ever have to get through someone like LeBron to reach the Finals??

I'm not holding it against him i just want to see how well he plays.

[HeartBreakKid]

What do you think IT's efficiency numbers would look like if he was playing on the 76ers during that era instead of Iverson? How can you discount the fact that both the rules changes and the evolution of modern offenses has been tremendously beneficial to small guards and efficiency in general. Imagine IT playing in a bruiser era with no offensive talent or anything resembling the shooting/spacing he has around him now. Does anything think he could have had the impact Iverson had in that era? Does anyone really think if you swapped him and Iverson's place in time that IT would lead those 76ers teams anywhere near the finals?

Anyone who understands basketball and saw Iverson play (even if they aren't particularly a fan) realizes what Iverson could do playing in this era in the situation that IT is in. He would absolutely shred defenses to the extent that Westbrook does and possibly even more so. Younger people don't realize that Iverson, despite all his flaws and bad habits he ended developing throughout his career, was one of the most talented guards the league has ever seen and he was in the god tier of the freakish athletes that have played in the NBA (professional sports in general tbh). There isn't a player in the league today that is faster or quicker with the ball than Iverson was at his peak. If a young Iverson came into the league today and a modern coach managed to get through to him he could be a top 3-5 player, hed be an all-star and put up fantastic stats regardless.

IT's TS% would be worse in 2000 just like Iverson's TS% would be better in 2017. League percentages has risen over that time

But Thomas was still among the league leaders in TS% this season while Iverson had a TS% well below average for most of his career including his MVP season. So relatively speaking, one of them is efficient while the other is not. That's just a fact.

This ignores circumstances like teammates. Iverson's Philly teams were generally a dreadful situation for a go to scorers offensive efficiency. He had extremely poor offensive talent and shooting around him by even that eras standard. IT has decent overall offensive talent around him and premium spacing. Hes also playing in one of the better systems in the league. IT's situation benefits him even relative to most his contemporary piers. Iverson was disadvantaged in this regard even by the standard of his era.

Teammates do not determine the difference between elite TS and below average TS, it's not like Iverson was even close. Why would it be? Iverson wasn't a good shooter, Thomas is.

[The_Hater]

What do you think IT's efficiency numbers would look like if he was playing on the 76ers during that era instead of Iverson? How can you discount the fact that both the rules changes and the evolution of modern offenses has been tremendously beneficial to small guards and efficiency in general. Imagine IT playing in a bruiser era with no offensive talent or anything resembling the shooting/spacing he has around him now. Does anything think he could have had the impact Iverson had in that era? Does anyone really think if you swapped him and Iverson's place in time that IT would lead those 76ers teams anywhere near the finals?

Anyone who understands basketball and saw Iverson play (even if they aren't particularly a fan) realizes what Iverson could do playing in this era in the situation that IT is in. He would absolutely shred defenses to the extent that Westbrook does and possibly even more so. Younger people don't realize that Iverson, despite all his flaws and bad habits he ended developing throughout his career, was one of the most talented guards the league has ever seen and he was in the god tier of the freakish athletes that have played in the NBA (professional sports in general tbh). There isn't a player in the league today that is faster or quicker with the ball than Iverson was at his peak. If a young Iverson came into the league today and a modern coach managed to get through to him he could be a top 3-5 player, hed be an all-star and put up fantastic stats regardless.

IT's TS% would be worse in 2000 just like Iverson's TS% would be better in 2017. League percentages has risen over that time

But Thomas was still among the league leaders in TS% this season while Iverson had a TS% well below average for most of his career including his MVP season. So relatively speaking, one of them is efficient while the other is not. That's just a fact.

This ignores circumstances like teammates. Iverson's Philly teams were generally a dreadful situation for a go to scorers offensive efficiency. He had extremely poor offensive talent and shooting around him by even that eras standard. IT has decent overall offensive talent around him and premium spacing. Hes also playing in one of the better systems in the league. IT's situation benefits him even relative to most his contemporary piers. Iverson was disadvantaged in this regard even by the standard of his era.

Iverson played in the finals with another HOF player in Mutombo. He played with guys like Coleman and Stackhouse in their primes (both all stars), Toni Kukoc, Larry Hughes and only proved during that period that he didn't like to share the ball and still took a lot of bad shots. That's why they moved him from PG to SG. Later when Denver traded Iverson for Billups they became immediately better and made the conference finals.

As it is, I don't think Thomas is playing with a murderers row group of teammates either. So I'm not sure how this argument works for Iverson and against Thomas.

[Braggins]

IT's TS% would be worse in 2000 just like Iverson's TS% would be better in 2017. League percentages has risen over that time

But Thomas was still among the league leaders in TS% this season while Iverson had a TS% well below average for most of his career including his MVP season. So relatively speaking, one of them is efficient while the other is not. That's just a fact.

This ignores circumstances like teammates. Iverson's Philly teams were generally a dreadful situation for a go to scorers offensive efficiency. He had extremely poor offensive talent and shooting around him by even that eras standard. IT has decent overall offensive talent around him and premium spacing. Hes also playing in one of the better systems in the league. IT's situation benefits him even relative to most his contemporary piers. Iverson was disadvantaged in this regard even by the standard of his era.

Teammates do not determine the difference between elite TS and below average TS, it's not like Iverson was even close. Why would it be? Iverson wasn't a good shooter, Thomas is.

Iverson doesn't have to be as good of a shooter or even quite as efficient to be a better player. The gap in efficiency would be smaller if the both played in the same era. Shooting/efficiency would probably still be in Thomas's favor, but that isn't the end all be all of the discussion. There are players today that are less efficient than Thomas who are better.

[Braggins]

IT's TS% would be worse in 2000 just like Iverson's TS% would be better in 2017. League percentages has risen over that time

But Thomas was still among the league leaders in TS% this season while Iverson had a TS% well below average for most of his career including his MVP season. So relatively speaking, one of them is efficient while the other is not. That's just a fact.

This ignores circumstances like teammates. Iverson's Philly teams were generally a dreadful situation for a go to scorers offensive efficiency. He had extremely poor offensive talent and shooting around him by even that eras standard. IT has decent overall offensive talent around him and premium spacing. Hes also playing in one of the better systems in the league. IT's situation benefits him even relative to most his contemporary piers. Iverson was disadvantaged in this regard even by the standard of his era.

Iverson played in the finals with another HOF player in Mutombo. He played with guys like Coleman and Stackhouse in their primes (both all stars), Toni Kukoc, Larry Hughes and only proved during that period that he didn't like to share the ball and still took a lot of bad shots. That's why they moved him from PG to SG. Later when Denver traded Iverson for Billups they became immediately better and made the conference finals.

It should be pretty obvious why this post is extremely misleading. I'm done responding to this thread. I shouldn't have to explain why playing with an old as **** Mutombo isn't a good argument against Iverson playing with bad offensive teammates.

[HeartBreakKid]

This ignores circumstances like teammates. Iverson's Philly teams were generally a dreadful situation for a go to scorers offensive efficiency. He had extremely poor offensive talent and shooting around him by even that eras standard. IT has decent overall offensive talent around him and premium spacing. Hes also playing in one of the better systems in the league. IT's situation benefits him even relative to most his contemporary piers. Iverson was disadvantaged in this regard even by the standard of his era.

Teammates do not determine the difference between elite TS and below average TS, it's not like Iverson was even close. Why would it be? Iverson wasn't a good shooter, Thomas is.

Iverson doesn't have to be as good of a shooter or even quite as efficient to be a better player. The gap in efficiency would be smaller if the both played in the same era. Shooting/efficiency would probably still be in Thomas's favor, but that isn't the end all be all of the discussion. There are players today that are less efficient than Thomas who are better.

Usually due to aspects outside of scoring, scoring is only one element of basketball and the only one Thomas excels at. Most of Iverson's impact comes from scoring as well and he has severe weaknesses in the other aspects of his game (his passing and defense have huge chasms in it)

Though, the post that I replied too is clearly talking about scoring and efficiency, so I am not sure why we would talk about anything else. I don't think Thomas is necessarily better than Iverson, but the scoring efficiency argument is very weak. Iverson would not be a dominant scorer today just as he wasn't back then.



Also, if you want to argue that Iverson's efficiency would be higher in this era, which I think is a fair statement, shouldn't you also assume his PPG be lower? His PPG is largely a product of his minutes played and shots taken.

[Bergmaniac]

Iverson would shoot at least 15 FTs per game under the current rules and if the refs loved him as much as they clearly love IT.

[HeartBreakKid]

Iverson would shoot at least 15 FTs per game under the current rules and if the refs loved him as much as they clearly love IT.

We're really talking like Iverson didn't get calls? The revisionist history in this thread is crazy. Talking about free throws and ref protection when Iverson is present, someone even had the nerve to say that Iverson didn't carry the ball.

[Knickerbocker91]

Were you even alive during the Iverson era? Nobody in their right mind would agree to this.
IT has blossomed into a star this year but that's it. You can't touch him without him flopping around like a wounded carp.

[Bergmaniac]

Iverson would shoot at least 15 FTs per game under the current rules and if the refs loved him as much as they clearly love IT.

We're really talking like Iverson didn't get calls? The revisionist history in this thread is crazy. Talking about free throws and ref protection when Iverson is present, someone even had the nerve to say that Iverson didn't carry the ball.

Of course Iverson got plenty of calls, but I don't recall him usually getting the kind of preferential treatment Thomas gets regularly. And slashers in general get treated much better these days by the refs than in the early 2000s.

[VicG]

Let's just be real, Iverson was overrated but had a huge impact on the game that goes beyond stats. Even in his prime there were criticisms of inefficiency, carrying the ball and being a poor teammate. Still, he's a HOFer for a reason.

Also being real, I dislike Thomas but he is playing at a super-high level right now, up there with the greatest scorers in the game. Gotta respect it.

Both great players, Isaiah is on his way to being a superstar. Gotta keep it up for multiple seasons.

[VicG]

Iverson would shoot at least 15 FTs per game under the current rules and if the refs loved him as much as they clearly love IT.

We're really talking like Iverson didn't get calls? The revisionist history in this thread is crazy. Talking about free throws and ref protection when Iverson is present, someone even had the nerve to say that Iverson didn't carry the ball.

Of course Iverson got plenty of calls, but I don't recall him usually getting the kind of preferential treatment Thomas gets regularly. And slashers in general get treated much better these days by the refs than in the early 2000s.

I agree refs are kinder these days but I remember being frustrated as heck with all the calls Iverson would get driving the lane. He kind of paved the way for a lot of the stuff we see now tbh

[_Game7_]

Not even close, Iverson would be a top 5 player in the league today like he was back then, Isaiah not so much.

[Scizzup]

Iverson would shoot at least 15 FTs per game under the current rules and if the refs loved him as much as they clearly love IT.

We're really talking like Iverson didn't get calls? The revisionist history in this thread is crazy. Talking about free throws and ref protection when Iverson is present, someone even had the nerve to say that Iverson didn't carry the ball.

Iverson got calls but it's no secret his freethrow rate after handchecking rose. He had multiple seasons of .450 ftr and a .500ftr season at age 32. Now Imagine young Iverson in a league with more small ball and a pnr dominated league and no 2 bigs tradition line ups. There is a reason players used to average an insane amount of blocks back then

Isaiah will still me more efficient because he is a better shooter but Iverson averaging 32/3/7 on 56% TS is looked a lot more differently considering he be shooting more 3's in this era and even at his average of 32% would still be better than a lot of the midrange. Russ was able to keep his efficiency up by a career high 7 3's a game even though he was a career 31% shooter before this year.

[Green89]

Iverson never had a single season like Thomas just had. In one Iverson's best years where he scored 31PPG he played in a staggering 10 more minutes per game than Thomas (43MPG vs. 33MPG) and took nearly 9 more shot attempts per game, yet only averaged just over 2 more points per game, with a worse PER, Win Shares, TS%, VORP, and was lower in many other categories. I watched Iverson's whole career and he was nowhere near as discipined a player and shooter as Thomas. For most of the year's he played, he was well known to be a chucker in fan discussions (didn't have a RealGM back then so it was more face to face discussions).

Iverson was like the energizer bunny, and would be an ironman out there and he put up high numbers for a lot of seasons, so his overall career at this point looks better. However, Thomas keeps having years like this past one, and this shouldn't even be debatable any longer.

[zronv7]

Iverson shot so many bricks Trump could use him to build the wall.

[NY 567]

Not only is he better, but he's multiple tiers better. Plays within the flow of the offense better and is eons more efficient a scorer.