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The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#181 » by KevinOConnorNBA » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:48 pm

VanWest82 wrote:Here's a good test case I wish Chris would have pushed harder on the Ringer NBA podcast: would you have blown up the Grizzlies two years ago? They were clearly on the downside with Conley approaching free agency and Randolph and Allen aging fast. And yet they continue to make the playoffs (last year's injury plagued finish aside) and will likely continue to do so despite crippling management decisions, like signing the corpse of Chandler Parsons to 94M.

Yes, maybe. The Grizzlies screwed themselves. Chandler Parsons is what happens when you desperately try to win when no real hopes of actually winning at the highest of levels. Tony Allen and Vince Carter and Zach Randolph -- three of their top six rotation players -- are old as dirt and will be free-agents this summer. JaMychal Green is gonna get PAID this summer. They have about $75M of guaranteed money committed to Conley, Parsons, and Gasol. Then another $15M guaranteed to other guys. It's very possible just to retain Green they'll have to go over the cap, and depending on the money Allen, Carter, and Randolph get, maybe the lux tax. They should look to use their cap space in a positive way this summer. If not, re-sign their old guys to just one-year deals with team options for the second year to give themselves one more year to figure it out.

VanWest82 wrote:Re your overarching question about sustainability, there are so many ways to maintain organizational culture when you have two foundational pieces to build around, even if they're older ones like the Grizzlies and Raptors have. I think that stuff matters. So when you bring in the next wave of young and talented players, the odds of one of them making the leap by growing under the guidance of their predecessors increases exponentially.

You're right that organization matters but I think that can also be kinda overrated. Look at the Sixers for an example. This "culture of losing" that Bryan Colangelo rambled about was a fabrication. I do think it's bad if players lose for too long, but not a lot has changed this year other than the fact the young players got better. Covington Holmes and McConnell got better. Saric came over. Embiid got healthy (for 31 games). You can still have good culture with good veteran presences even in a losing situation. The Grizzlies have good organizational stability and smart leadership. I think they'd have good structure, just like the Raptors would.

VanWest82 wrote:Cheers for doing this. I'm surprised more NBA writers don't.

Do a search on Twitter for "never read the comments" or "don't read the comments." You'll find a lot of writers say those words for whatever reason.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#182 » by tecumseh18 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:50 pm

I have to admit, when Steph backed 5-6 feet off the arc the other night in Houston and nonchalantly swished that last 3, my first thought was "This is hopeless. We should just blow it up." Then last night against the Spurs happened. *sigh*

The key to flexibility with the delayed S&T is to sign Lowry to a number that is remotely moveable. $200 mill isn't it. 5x30, maybe.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#183 » by VanWest82 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:21 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:The key to flexibility with the delayed S&T is to sign Lowry to a number that is remotely moveable. $200 mill isn't it. 5x30, maybe.


I completely agree with this. Under the old max rules you could max your all star and still have a hope of getting something in return (like Atlanta did with JJ). Now I'm not so sure (with the super max) unless we're talking about one of the 5-10 best players in the NBA.

In creating the super max rule, the league helped out franchises who happen to have an All NBA player. For everyone else who might have an all star or two, it has set up a situation where the team is either forced to grossly overpay their best players or risk offending them by trying to offer market value (considerably less than super max) and losing them for nothing in free agency.

Every time the league makes changes to supposedly help franchises, there are always a bunch of unintended consequences.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#184 » by Troubadour » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:21 pm

First of all, really cool that you are in this thread engaging with the fans of the team. The podcast contextualized your opinion on the team a lot more, specifically around your suggestion the Raptors make a #22 + Norman Powell for a late lottery pick. That, to me, makes a lot more sense than moving on from DeRozan. I don't think you move a player like DeRozan. His skillset is so much more than his athleticism as you wrote in your story on footwork. Finding a younger star to pair with him and Lowry seems like a harder task, but has a higher potential than simply moving on from the two most successful players we have ever had.

Who in this draft do you think would fit the bill of a potential star who slips for whatever reason? You'd probably have to rule out a PG unless Lowry is back on the table, but DraftExpress has Jonathan Isaac, OG Anunoby, Justin Jackson, and Miles Bridges in that range. I personally think Isaac and Anunoby have the highest upside of those four, but you are far more familiar with these prospects.

Thanks again for stopping by
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#185 » by Clementine64 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:37 pm

Troubadour wrote:First of all, really cool that you are in this thread engaging with the fans of the team. The podcast contextualized your opinion on the team a lot more, specifically around your suggestion the Raptors make a #22 + Norman Powell for a late lottery pick. That, to me, makes a lot more sense than moving on from DeRozan. I don't think you move a player like DeRozan. His skillset is so much more than his athleticism as you wrote in your story on footwork. Finding a younger star to pair with him and Lowry seems like a harder task, but has a higher potential than simply moving on from the two most successful players we have ever had.

Who in this draft do you think would fit the bill of a potential star who slips for whatever reason? You'd probably have to rule out a PG unless Lowry is back on the table, but DraftExpress has Jonathan Isaac, OG Anunoby, Justin Jackson, and Miles Bridges in that range. I personally think Isaac and Anunoby have the highest upside of those four, but you are far more familiar with these prospects.

Thanks again for stopping by


I am not the person that you summoned,but I did notice you mentioned trading Norm+ our pick for a prospect in this draft. I posted this idea awhile ago in another thread that we should move Norm+ our pick for Miles Bridges who could go anywhere from 10-15.

Bridges has that star potential and he is able to play multiple positions because of his size. He'd be the ideal 3/4 beside Derozan and Ibaka with his all around skill set,similar to Draymond. He can hit the 3, playmake, defend and he's a monster athlete. I wouldn't be surprised if he moves up the draft boards significantly after the combine and workouts.

As much as I value Norm he will always be playing behind Demar Derozan and it makes sense to maximize his value now while still on his rookie deal.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#186 » by dhackett1565 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:40 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
tecumseh18 wrote:The key to flexibility with the delayed S&T is to sign Lowry to a number that is remotely moveable. $200 mill isn't it. 5x30, maybe.


I completely agree with this. Under the old max rules you could max your all star and still have a hope of getting something in return (like Atlanta did with JJ). Now I'm not so sure (with the super max) unless we're talking about one of the 5-10 best players in the NBA.

In creating the super max rule, the league helped out franchises who happen to have an All NBA player. For everyone else who might have an all star or two, it has set up a situation where the team is either forced to grossly overpay their best players or risk offending them by trying to offer market value (considerably less than super max) and losing them for nothing in free agency.

Every time the league makes changes to supposedly help franchises, there are always a bunch of unintended consequences.


What?

Lowry's deal this summer is almost exactly the same as it would have been under the old CBA, with a slightly higher starting salary (35.7M instead of 34M) and slightly higher annual raises (2.9M instead of 2.5M).

His 5 year max will be 207M this summer (41.4M per year). Under the old CBA it would have been 193M (38.7M per year).

It's less than a 3M per year hit, less than a 10% impact on his salary, and less than a 3% impact compared to the cap level.

The new designated veteran player extension rule (which has the all-NBA qualifiers) does not impact Lowry in the slightest. He's not eligible for that. The super-max is the name for the maximum salary for 10+ year veterans, always has been. The DVPE rule just opens up that salary to guys with 7-9 years experience. Lowry has 11 years, so he'd be eligible regardless.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#187 » by alpngso » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Listened to the podcast, I get where he's coming from. Sign Lowry and the see if you can flip him to build for the future since Lebron is the king in the east for next foreseeable future. With the Cavs looking fragile as ever, not sure if this premise is good one to assume right now.

However, I did like the idea of packaging our 1st pick + young prospect (ie// Powell) to get into the 10-15 pick range of this year's draft and shoot for the stars. Powell exceeded our expectation and became a valuable piece to our team but he's unlikely to be an all-star level player in the future and if we have a chance of having top 10 prospect fall out and become a star, that may be the move that can change the franchise.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#188 » by CoachJReturns » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:40 pm

alpngso wrote:Listened to the podcast, I get where he's coming from. Sign Lowry and the see if you can flip him to build for the future since Lebron is the king in the east for next foreseeable future. With the Cavs looking fragile as ever, not sure if this premise is good one to assume right now.

However, I did like the idea of packaging our 1st pick + young prospect (ie// Powell) to get into the 10-15 pick range of this year's draft and shoot for the stars. Powell exceeded our expectation and became a valuable piece to our team but he's unlikely to be an all-star level player in the future and if we have a chance of having top 10 prospect fall out and become a star, that may be the move that can change the franchise.

This deal had been suggested in the draft thread and I brought it up in the trade thread. It got a lot of angry responses in the trade thread. lol.
Personally, I'm not sure I'd trade Powell and our 1st to move up, but of course that depends on who's available. The value of a prospect can be very subjective though.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#189 » by Vorticity » Thu May 4, 2017 2:31 am

realgm bashed him to no end, but maybe he was right? :dontknow:
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#190 » by Brinbe » Thu May 4, 2017 2:32 am

Vorticity wrote:realgm bashed him to no end, but maybe he was right? :dontknow:

The talent is there, the coaching isn't.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#191 » by Lord_Zedd » Thu May 4, 2017 2:34 am

I mean, he's not wrong with what he's saying about the team
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#192 » by RaptorsLife » Thu May 4, 2017 2:38 am

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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#193 » by nabbs » Thu May 4, 2017 2:46 am

Troubadour wrote:https://theringer.com/toronto-raptors-possible-rebuild-kyle-lowry-demar-derozan-nba-e5f75d3981f3#.6eobcfa87

TLDR = DeMar DeRozan is an inefficient chucker who is worse without Lowry up until the last stretch of games. Lowry is old, Raptors will play poorly in playoffs, and yadayadayada.

This article's premise purposefully ignores the fact that a player matures from when they are 23 to 27 as DeRozan has this season.



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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#194 » by UneducatedFan86 » Thu May 4, 2017 2:50 am

I hadn't read this article until today, but it really falls in line with what I've thought all season. I was rather hopeful after the trade deadline but after seeing Ibaka play for an extended amount of games, I just don't think he's worth investing a near-max deal for. This team isn't worth going into the luxury for.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#195 » by CoachJReturns » Thu May 4, 2017 2:57 am

UneducatedFan86 wrote:I hadn't read this article until today, but it really falls in line with what I've thought all season. I was rather hopeful after the trade deadline but after seeing Ibaka play for an extended period of games, I just don't think he's worth investing a near-max deal for. This team isn't worth going into the luxury for.

I've been in the same boat. I didn't expect this team to do any better than last year's high water mark and wanted a tear down. When the Ibaka trade happened I figured the deal was already made and we finally had our power forward, so I would wait and see what happened. Well now we've seen the result. We upgraded the position and still don't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting past Cleveland. Instead, the Raptors are being flat out destroyed and embarrassed by them. It's time to start over like Masai planned to do before the addition by subtraction effect of trading Rudy Gay and the Lowry deal fell through. I honestly don't think anyone would have cause for complaint. We made the ECF(though against less than great competition before the Cavs) and we saw a few consecutive playoff appearances. The team made a lot of money. But all things must come to an end. We never had the elite 1st option to make us a legit contender and we have no way to get one other than the draft. Picking in the 20s won't get us that guy either. For everyone Kawhi, there are hundreds of late first round picks who are mediocre or out of the league in a few years.

Hit the reset button already.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#196 » by UneducatedFan86 » Thu May 4, 2017 3:03 am

CoachJReturns wrote:
UneducatedFan86 wrote:I hadn't read this article until today, but it really falls in line with what I've thought all season. I was rather hopeful after the trade deadline but after seeing Ibaka play for an extended period of games, I just don't think he's worth investing a near-max deal for. This team isn't worth going into the luxury for.

I've been in the same boat. I didn't expect this team to do any better than last year's high water mark and wanted a tear down. When the Ibaka trade happened I figured the deal was already made and we finally had our power forward, so I would wait and see what happened. Well now we've seen the result. We upgraded the position and still don't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting past Cleveland. Instead, the Raptors are being flat out destroyed and embarrassed by them. It's time to start over like Masai planned to do before the addition by subtraction effect of trading Rudy Gay and the Lowry deal fell through. I honestly don't think anyone would have cause for complaint. We made the ECF(though against less than great competition before the Cavs) and we saw a few consecutive playoff appearances. The team made a lot of money. But all things must come to an end. We never had the elite 1st option to make us a legit contender and we have no way to get one other than the draft. Picking in the 20s won't get us that guy either. For everyone Kawhi, there are hundreds of late first round picks who are mediocre or out of the league in a few years.

Hit the reset button already.


Exactly.

As a fan, I want to see a competitive team and a team that has success, but I want it to be long-term and sustainable. This team is a season or two away from having to be blown up. After Lowry starts to decline, this team declines. The major takeaway point for me from that article was the little graph about on/off +/- for Lowry and Demar. Without Lowry, Demar is not nearly the same player.

Plus, I'd rather get full value for some of our talent than scraps in a couple seasons. Work out a sign-and-trade with a team for Lowry and/or Ibaka. Let Patterson walk. Get a second rounder and some cap relief for Carroll. See what type of package we can get for Demar. Move JV if we can get a good deal. We take a step back for a few seasons but hopefully have something we can really build upon going forward.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#197 » by Syd-TK3 » Thu May 4, 2017 3:06 am

Been sitting on the edge of team negative for awhile now, and honestly I'm a full time member now.

Blow this **** up
trade demar and Jv for draft picks and get Dennis smith Jr
Let Lowry, Patterson walk
Deport Ibaka's old ass
Take back every penny of Carroll's 15mill
Ship Joseph overseas And take his Canadian passport
Shake tuckers hand and wish him good luck in his career
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#198 » by seanbig » Thu May 4, 2017 3:24 am

Can someone explain to me how the heck does Chicago match up so well with Cleveland?
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#199 » by Par36 » Thu May 4, 2017 3:54 am

So... legit rebuild time.
Sign trade Lowry? Trade DeMar? trade JV?

Not in a terrible spot for. Rebuild but far from ideal.
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Re: The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up 

Post#200 » by Scizzup » Thu May 4, 2017 4:40 am

seanbig wrote:Can someone explain to me how the heck does Chicago match up so well with Cleveland?


I don't think they match up well but Butler is better than Derozan. good wings who can score seem to give Cavs trouble because they don't really have a great perimeter defender and Bron can't defend them all game. KD/Kawhi/Hayward would destroy Cavs

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