Luka Doncic

[pacersGM]

One is playing in F4 in Istanbul, being one of the most important players for Real, second was playing in Siska in a hall with a balcony for 40 spectators. And you're saying the biggest difference is one being hyped and other not?;)
He went in Murcia 3 years later, not Tau, I guessed all the scouts wasn't that impressed, because he went in Slovan, another club from Ljubljana, after Ilirija.

And please let patronizing tone," you will be probably disappointed", out of the debate.

you are totaly missing the point.
the dragic-doncic comparision shows that an "unknown" player whos skill set doesnt bring him an advantage in europe/ doesent even stand out in europe, is made for the nba system, and can excel to an all nba player with his skill set suited for the nba (athletic, fast, agessive).

and that a player who is made for winning 4 euroleague titles until 2025, and beeing the mvp 5 times, doesnt neccesary mean he will translate that or build upon that in the nba.

so, dont be fooled by the glamour of the euroleague final f4 at 18, because if we are discussing in an nba forum, the gym with 40 seats can hold more promise then the glam of the turkish airlines, dogus group euroleague.

but if you are talking how awesome doncic is and what he can become in european basketball, then you are right. he can easy become the larry bird of the turkish airlines dogus group league

and to correct you some more in my patronizing tone: dragic signed with tau ceramica and was in murcia on loan.
second, slovan played in the adriatic league at that time, so it seems the scout was impressed enough

[BoardCrusher]

considering i know something about basketball of the last 25 years, and considering i knew who luka doncic was more then 5 years ago when you first heard of him, considering i know what kind of player his father was before him, i suggest you save this line you quoted and we can reopen the discussion in 7 years, when you will say man you were right, sorry

i chip in from time to time, since this discussion is mostly high in the clouds or way below, and the truth is somewehere in between. meaning, he shure as hell wont ever be a scorer and hall of famer such as bird, mullun or petrovic, and he shurely wont be a role player like jaric

Why do you think youre the only one that knows things about Slovenian bball players and basketball in general?

Sorry for breaking your bubble, ive played for Olimpija kadets before Doncic was even born, had to stop playing when I torn my knee ligaments on skiing.

your future predictments are just YOUR opinion and they make you look ignorant, but please go ahead and predict some more

i responed to your predicting the future claim, by explaining on what my opinions are based. Then nobody should post their opinion on doncics potential, as no one knows for shure?

so you played for the best club in slovenia in the slovenian league when you were 14 years old, and then you got hurt? are you shure the injury was the reason you didnt play adittional, higher ranked basketball, or were you limited maybe elsewhere? because many people use a injury as an excuse and the forever what would have been if? ... and then they tell stories who they played against when they were 13, but then an injury happened?

i think you didnt need to attack me personal, saying i am ignorant by predicting how far the tools that doncic has, will take him in the nba, so i went also a little personal with the injury there

about dragic beeing an unknown prospect. he wasnt hyped nearly as much as doncic, but that deesnt mean that people who need to know stuff like that, didnt know him. i watched him play as an 16 year old in his "bad" club Illirija, and there were 2 adriatic league team scouts there, and when an opponent hit him hard, he was attacked by his own team manager, saying you wont be injuring the best prospect slovenia has. and TAU ceramica doesnt sign you as an 19 year old if you are an unknown or player without future. so thats that.

and thats all im saying: if doncic with all the hype becomes anywhat near what dragic has become in the nba (all nba player, most improved player ...), he can thank god, as some of you think he will be easy better then him, but let me tell you, you probably will be dissapointed.

I didnt predict anything, you put a ceiling on Doncic which at this point is way to early to be done. If he lands on a team that wont know how to utilize him, he might even end up as a total bust whileon other hand in the right circumstances he could be a 24/7type of player, at this point we just dont know that, its way to early for those kind of predictions, do you agree on that?

Regarding my injury, not sure you had a similar one, but its a pain in the ass, had my leg plastered from hip to ankle for almost 2 months, my knee was never the same after, doctors advised me not to undertake any serious sportactivities for some time, looking back on it and how differently they were dealing with this stuff back then compared to today its absurd.

[narcolepsy]

the dragic-doncic comparision shows that an "unknown" player whos skill set doesnt bring him an advantage in europe/ doesent even stand out in europe, is made for the nba system, and can excel to an all nba player with his skill set suited for the nba (athletic, fast, agessive).

He didnt stand out in Europe because he just wasnt that good. When he got to the NBA people called him Tragic. Most fans gave up on him. He had to improve A LOT.

I do agree his skillset is more suited for NBA basketball, but come on...

[Bob8]

One is playing in F4 in Istanbul, being one of the most important players for Real, second was playing in Siska in a hall with a balcony for 40 spectators. And you're saying the biggest difference is one being hyped and other not?;)
He went in Murcia 3 years later, not Tau, I guessed all the scouts wasn't that impressed, because he went in Slovan, another club from Ljubljana, after Ilirija.

And please let patronizing tone," you will be probably disappointed", out of the debate.

you are totaly missing the point.
the dragic-doncic comparision shows that an "unknown" player whos skill set doesnt bring him an advantage in europe/ doesent even stand out in europe, is made for the nba system, and can excel to an all nba player with his skill set suited for the nba (athletic, fast, agessive).

and that a player who is made for winning 4 euroleague titles until 2025, and beeing the mvp 5 times, doesnt neccesary mean he will translate that or build upon that in the nba.

so, dont be fooled by the glamour of the euroleague final f4 at 18, because if we are discussing in an nba forum, the gym with 40 seats can hold more promise then the glam of the turkish airlines, dogus group euroleague.

but if you are talking how awesome doncic is and what he can become in european basketball, then you are right. he can easy become the larry bird of the turkish airlines dogus group league

and to correct you some more in my patronizing tone: dragic signed with tau ceramica and was in murcia on loan.
second, slovan played in the adriatic league at that time, so it seems the scout was impressed enough

The problem is, all what you're talking about is o.k, if Doncic wouldn't have made it in Nba. But we don't know yet how good he will be. Everything in your writing is only presumption, how Doncic will fail. If he won't and will become much better player than Dragic, like he's at this moment of their careers, what then? If I used you patronizing style, you would probably be very disappointing or it will be something else?;)

He was in loan because he wasn't good enough for Baskonia, being 22 years old.

[pacersGM]

where did i say doncic will fail in the nba? i said he could be a very good starter, average 15,5,5 at best. if thats fail for you, fine.
but if he gets picked 1-3 those 15 wont be enough from people calling him a bust. and to become much better then dragic, he would have to average what, 25,8,8, paul george, leonard, lebron numbers? are you shure he can do that?? all im saying the skills he has, and the skills he has not, i dont see them translating into the nba more then an average. but dudes are talking larry bird, and petrovic, and mullin numbers, really? no way

[Bob8]

where did i say doncic will fail in the nba? i said he could be a very good starter, average 15,5,5 at best. if thats fail for you, fine.
but if he gets picked 1-3 those 15 wont be enough from people calling him a bust. and to become much better then dragic, he would have to average what, 25,8,8, paul george, leonard, lebron numbers? are you shure he can do that?? all im saying the skills he has, and the skills he has not, i dont see them translating into the nba more then an average. but dudes are talking larry bird, and petrovic, and mullin numbers, really? no way

And from where did you take this 15, 5, 5?

Or if I asked you other way, what would you say 13 years ago, if someone asked you what is Dragic's ceiling in NBA? Man, Doncic is 18 years old, he can develop his skills and his body a lot. Or you're telling us every good player in NBA is a superman? Just look how Lebron looked when he was 18. That wasn't only meat that changed his body so dramatically. Looked what they did with Kukoc and Petrovic. In the end of the day is only one question, can you play basketball or you can't and what are you prepared to do about it. Imho Doncic will do anything what takes to succeed. Will it be enough? I don't know, but neither do you.

[reanimator]

Who says he's early bloomer? And who guarantees Fultz, Ball&co. anything? I don't hear that kind of skepticism in their threads. If anything, Doncic is younger and has already proved he can play as professional in pretty difficult league. That difficult that he's only under 20 there. He will be at least very good player. I really doubted that we can say something like that for first 10 players in 2017 and 2018 draft. At least half of them can be a bust. Some are looking totally raw, didn't show anything yet, but almost nobody doubts about theirs potential. Why is that?

This just isnt true. Ball alone has more skepticism in his thread than this Doncic thread.

Skill wise he is without a doubt, but 50% of Doncic's criticism anywhere you look is he's a classic case of "unathletic, overhyped white Euro" and that gets tiring fast.

I've made skill-based arguments against Doncic about his lack of a pull up, inability to finish around the rim and no creativity with his handle

[pacersGM]

the dragic-doncic comparision shows that an "unknown" player whos skill set doesnt bring him an advantage in europe/ doesent even stand out in europe, is made for the nba system, and can excel to an all nba player with his skill set suited for the nba (athletic, fast, agessive).

He didnt stand out in Europe because he just wasnt that good. When he got to the NBA people called him Tragic. Most fans gave up on him. He had to improve A LOT.

I do agree his skillset is more suited for NBA basketball, but come on...

goran dragic had to really improve ALOT. but the question is, will doncic become "ALOT" more athletic? because he needs to.

ignorant people called goran Tragic. i dont know why, because playing behind a hall of famer, 2 time mvp steve nash, or because he still mamaged to average 8 ppg in 18 minutes in his second season?

if he makes that huge leap physicaly, and is an all star player , im all for it. but if he cant? where are the european " do it all" players now in the nba (bjelica, multi talent in europe, ? bogdanovic, in europe major scoring threat, good defender, facilitator ... now the wizards spot up shooter, rubio? super hyped visionary point guard - solid point without a shot )

a freak athlete is a base for for an nba superstar (wich a team each year expects to be) - michael porter jr. can jump out of the gym, mamba (can almost f... dunk without jumping with that wingspan, zion williamson, freak athlete, ron artestish lebron jamesish athlete ) many of them flame out, and remain athletes, but 1 of them learns the game, he is in 10 all star games, mvp candidate.

name one euro player who became a superstar in the nba, and wich skills very above his peers basketball iq and feel for the game?
hell no. schroder is a prospect nba searches in europe ( a rondo wingspan stealing monster who hopefully will learn the pick and roll and develop a decent 3 point shot ...

[soulzen]

This just isnt true. Ball alone has more skepticism in his thread than this Doncic thread.

Skill wise he is without a doubt, but 50% of Doncic's criticism anywhere you look is he's a classic case of "unathletic, overhyped white Euro" and that gets tiring fast.

I've made skill-based arguments against Doncic about his lack of a pull up, inability to finish around the rim and no creativity with his handle

I know I didn't want to imply you did is, you and a lot of others bring up genuie concerns with his game that should be brought up, it should be that way so we don't listen how perfect he is, or any other prospect for that matter. On the other hand you have people who immediately dismiss him or want their team to skip drafting him just because he's a "white unathletic euro" without knowing anything about him or have some legit arguments to elaborate, even if they are right in the end it's still not fair. I saw it in this thread too where random people pop in to call him just that.

[pacersGM]

And from where did you take this 15, 5, 5?

Or if I asked you other way, what would you say 13 years ago, if someone asked you what is Dragic's ceiling in NBA? Man, Doncic is 18 years old, he can develop his skills and his body a lot. Or you're telling us every good player in NBA is a superman? Just look how Lebron looked when he was 18. That wasn't only meat that changed his body so dramatically. Looked what they did with Kukoc and Petrovic. In the end of the day is only one question, can you play basketball or you can't and what are you prepared to do about it. Imho Doncic will do anything what takes to succeed. Will it be enough? I don't know, but neither do you.

15,5,5 is for me the equivalent of a great nba career of a sg/sf, but also that of a #1 draft pick bust.

but since most of you are offended if i set his ceiling at an more then average 15,5,5, im am saying there is a big chance you will get dissapointed once he plays in the nba.

lebron was a freak at 18. he was then the fastest, most explosive in his career at 18-22. so to say doncic will develope his body is correct, but it wont be on the quicker and more explosive side. he will absorb contact better, maybe even finish a few layups in traffic wich he passed out at the moment for 90 % of the time. but dont expect him to blow by people or start and finish a break without gettings pinned on the backboard by john wall or rodney hood or such.

nor i nor you know what will happen, so we each bring our arguments to the table. isnt it how it works? or is it better we stop for 4 years until he gets into the USA, and then make our analysis?

[XTraderXL]

@pacersGM
Well, you are wrong about Dragic and his athleticism. I know because I played against him at least 10 times before he went to the NBA. If you call him an above average athlete (in NBA terms), you really dont know what you are talking about. He was always crafty and agile but he was never, ever explosive or particularly fast. I am a few years older than him and I followed his progress since the first time I saw him play when he was 16 when playing for Ilirija. I remember that preseason game, he was weak, not athletic but he had something in his game that made me tell my teammate that this guy will be very good even though he didnt have a good game. Doncic is a very similar athlete to what Dragic was at 18, Goran was just more crafty but thats because he is about 4 inches shorter and has a much smaller frame.

Anyway, saying how athletic Dragic is just tells me how bad you are at evaluating players. Maybe you played against him at some point and you were unathletic, thats why he seemed like a world class athlete to you))

[XTraderXL]

And one more thing about Doncic. Maybe he will not be a great scorer with a 30ppg average. But as a starter at point forward and 30+ min, he will easily average more than 5 assists and 5 reb. He is basically averaging that much at 17/18 in EL in 20 min per game. Come on man, be serious.

[pacersGM]

@pacersGM
Well, you are wrong about Dragic and his athleticism. I know because I played against him at least 10 times before he went to the NBA. If you call him an above average athlete (in NBA terms), you really dont know what you are talking about. He was always crafty and agile but he was never, ever explosive or particularly fast. I am a few years older than him and I followed his progress since the first time I saw him play when he was 16 when playing for Ilirija. I remember that preseason game, he was weak, not athletic but he had something in his game that made me tell my teammate that this guy will be very good even though he didnt have a good game. Doncic is a very similar athlete to what Dragic was at 18, Goran was just more crafty but thats because he is about 4 inches shorter and has a much smaller frame.

Anyway, saying how athletic Dragic is just tells me how bad you are at evaluating players. Maybe you played against him at some point and you were unathletic, thats why he seemed like a world class athlete to you))

- i say goran dragic is above average athletic in nba prospect term (lets pretend its 2007). if i would say above average in NBA terms that would mean what, that im saying he is above westbrook or george?

- if your definition of athletic is = high jumper, dunker, then you should get your terms straight.

- if goran dragic didnt seem particulary fast when you played against him at least 10 times, then it is possible you are an nba level athlete or your talent evaluation is poor. Or the third thing is possible: goran, once he entered the nba, increased his athletic ability by 50 something %.

outrunning westbrook on the break is nothing but proof of one mans athletic ability.

Watch on YouTube

in fact, i dare you, name me 3 as athletic white pint guards as goran dragic is? by athletic i dont mean his vertical leap, but speed, quickness, wiry body type, big wingspan ... etc. if dunking is your priority, then your ideal player is probably marko milic, wich i dont doubt you also played numerous times against

im also proud of doncic, but to say he will translate to the nba in the same manner he is showing in the euroleague, is foolish also just like stating he is as athletic as goran was at 18

[pacersGM]

And one more thing about Doncic. Maybe he will not be a great scorer with a 30ppg average. But as a starter at point forward and 30+ min, he will easily average more than 5 assists and 5 reb. He is basically averaging that much at 17/18 in EL in 20 min per game. Come on man, be serious.

great scorers dont average 30 ppg, that numbers are for the mvps (curry, westbrook, durant, lebron, kobe ...) very good nba players average 20 points per game. your expectations on doncic are to high. if he averages 15 a game in his 4-6 nba season, then he made it.
are those 5 rebound per game really that easy to get in 30 minutes per game? since paul george is averaging 6,8 in 35 minutes? really that easy?

that shows you really know what you are talking about

[Rasho Brezec]

Wait, did I read this right? Dragic was never explosive or fast? That was his defining trait, for christ sakes. He had nothing to his game but speed.

[XTraderXL]

Of course he was an above average in Europe, but not in the NBA and thats what I was talking about. For NBA he was never above average for a PG. That Westbrook clip doesnt tell you anything since Westbrook ran back slowly and then when he tried to stop. I am not saying he was a bad athlete like you are making it seem, he was above average in Europe but in the NBA he was never above average athletically. And no, he didnt improve by 50%, if he did he would be the fastest player in the league. WTF?!!?!

I am sure that Doncic with 30min per game will average 15, 5 and 5 in his 3rd year if he will play point forward. Before this season I said I expect him to play 20-25min in EL and average about the numbers he averages now and Mirotic said there is no way he will get those kind of minutes in the EL, nobody in Europe doesnt get those minutes at this age at a team like Real. Well, look at what happened. His impact on Real is even bigger than I expected and in my opinion Reals chances on F4 depend on his performance. If he doesnt play well, Real has almost no chance of winning even against Fener. That tells you how important an 18 yo is to his team.
And look at what happened in the PO. He had 2 bad games and then he came back, was the best player on the team and Real went to F4. That just tells you how mature and smart he is that he was able to adjust his game and be the best player on the court in only a few days.
And yes, Doncic is similar athletically to Dragic when he was 18. He just looks slower because he is so much bigger and has a completely different style. He is a better leaper as well. Dragic was more explosive than Doncic is at this point. In the open court, Doncic is maybe a bit slower but not much (he has 100kg, Dragic had maybe 80kg at that time) but he is unstoppable due to his size. With the ball in the open court he looks like the fastest player on the floor most times.

In fact I did play against Milic but not a lot and I was not matched up with him. Also, he is a few years older so our paths didnt cross as much as he went abroad early.

@Rasho
Did you see him play against Olimpija in the finals when he played for Slovan? I was at every finals game in 2006 and Dragic was the best player of the finals. He played great but Slovan lost in 5 (best of 5) and it wasnt his athleticism that made the dfference. To say he had nothing to his game but speed tells me you havent watched him play before he came to the NBA. He had speed for Europe, not for NBA. But he had talent, he was crafty, agile, smart and very tough. In NBA he developed other skills as well so he became a borderline all-star. As I mentioned I saw him play the first time when he was 16 and I saw his potential immediately but it was not because he was such a good athlete but because all of the things I mentioned above.

[Rasho Brezec]

I remember Goran very well. He was always an undersized SG who could outrun everyone. Steve Nash turned him into a PG.

[Bob8]

the dragic-doncic comparision shows that an "unknown" player whos skill set doesnt bring him an advantage in europe/ doesent even stand out in europe, is made for the nba system, and can excel to an all nba player with his skill set suited for the nba (athletic, fast, agessive).

He didnt stand out in Europe because he just wasnt that good. When he got to the NBA people called him Tragic. Most fans gave up on him. He had to improve A LOT.

I do agree his skillset is more suited for NBA basketball, but come on...

goran dragic had to really improve ALOT. but the question is, will doncic become "ALOT" more athletic? because he needs to.

ignorant people called goran Tragic. i dont know why, because playing behind a hall of famer, 2 time mvp steve nash, or because he still mamaged to average 8 ppg in 18 minutes in his second season?

if he makes that huge leap physicaly, and is an all star player , im all for it. but if he cant? where are the european " do it all" players now in the nba (bjelica, multi talent in europe, ? bogdanovic, in europe major scoring threat, good defender, facilitator ... now the wizards spot up shooter, rubio? super hyped visionary point guard - solid point without a shot )

a freak athlete is a base for for an nba superstar (wich a team each year expects to be) - michael porter jr. can jump out of the gym, mamba (can almost f... dunk without jumping with that wingspan, zion williamson, freak athlete, ron artestish lebron jamesish athlete ) many of them flame out, and remain athletes, but 1 of them learns the game, he is in 10 all star games, mvp candidate.

name one euro player who became a superstar in the nba, and wich skills very above his peers basketball iq and feel for the game?
hell no. schroder is a prospect nba searches in europe ( a rondo wingspan stealing monster who hopefully will learn the pick and roll and develop a decent 3 point shot ...

name one player who was that good in Euroleague at his age. to help you, this is Rubio's stats, 2 years older than Doncic.
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=LFW&seasoncode=E2009

drazen petrovic, http://www.drazenpetrovic.com/statis/index.htm

[pacersGM]

Of course he was an above average in Europe, but not in the NBA and thats what I was talking about. For NBA he was never above average for a PG. That Westbrook clip doesnt tell you anything since Westbrook ran back slowly and then when he tried to stop. I am not saying he was a bad athlete like you are making it seem, he was above average in Europe but in the NBA he was never above average athletically. And no, he didnt improve by 50%, if he did he would be the fastest player in the league. WTF?!!?!

I am sure that Doncic with 30min per game will average 15, 5 and 5 in his 3rd year if he will play point forward. Before this season I said I expect him to play 20-25min in EL and average about the numbers he averages now and Mirotic said there is no way he will get those kind of minutes in the EL, nobody in Europe doesnt get those minutes at this age at a team like Real. Well, look at what happened. His impact on Real is even bigger than I expected and in my opinion Reals chances on F4 depend on his performance. If he doesnt play well, Real has almost no chance of winning even against Fener. That tells you how important an 18 yo is to his team.
And look at what happened in the PO. He had 2 bad games and then he came back, was the best player on the team and Real went to F4. That just tells you how mature and smart he is that he was able to adjust his game and be the best player on the court in only a few days.
And yes, Doncic is similar athletically to Dragic when he was 18. He just looks slower because he is so much bigger and has a completely different style. He is a better leaper as well. Dragic was more explosive than Doncic is at this point. In the open court, Doncic is maybe a bit slower but not much (he has 100kg, Dragic had maybe 80kg at that time) but he is unstoppable due to his size. With the ball in the open court he looks like the fastest player on the floor most times.

In fact I did play against Milic but not a lot and I was not matched up with him. Also, he is a few years older so our paths didnt cross as much as he went abroad early.

@Rasho
Did you see him play against Olimpija in the finals when he played for Slovan? I was at every finals game in 2006 and Dragic was the best player of the finals. He played great but Slovan lost in 5 (best of 5) and it wasnt his athleticism that made the dfference. To say he had nothing to his game but speed tells me you havent watched him play before he came to the NBA. He had speed for Europe, not for NBA. But he had talent, he was crafty, agile, smart and very tough. In NBA he developed other skills as well so he became a borderline all-star. As I mentioned I saw him play the first time when he was 16 and I saw his potential immediately but it was not because he was such a good athlete but because all of the things I mentioned above.

I dont get it where you stand with dragic. You are saying when you played against him he wasnt particular fast or explosive or quick? That is compared to you, or did you evaluate his speed quickness comparing it to nba speed? If thats the case you must have been on the same court with several nba level athletes also, so that you could make the comparison? Come on man, you tried to downgrade my dragic/doncic evaluation by contradicting yourself several times

The westbrook movie is one in million, you can watch hour of his highlights where he is the fastest guy up and down the court, finishing with ease against bigger guys, wich means he is very very athletic. Even more so considering he is white and legit 6ft 3 in. Only dudes faster at point are john wall and westbrook full speed. Im still waiting for you to name 3 similar athletic white nba pgs?

And I cant wait for doncics third year in the league and those "easy 15-5-5" il get back to you then, dont worry

[pacersGM]

name one player who was that good in Euroleague at his age. to help you, this is Rubio's stats, 2 years older than Doncic.
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=LFW&seasoncode=E2009

I said name one player who was good and hyped young in europe but made the transition to nba superstar/star? You named rubio? Really? Rubio is for you a nba star?

Ok, point made