Middleton's Current Trade Value

[FNQ]

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

I disagree. I think Butler is a much better overall player than Middleton. All Middleton has on him is three point shooting. Butler does just about everything else as well as, or better than Middleton. Rebounding, defense, 2P fg %. When it comes to the playoffs, Butler has consistently outperformed Middleton.

While I agree Butler is the better overall player, Middleton is a much better distributor which to me is extremely important when discussing premiere players. You are also not taking into account their contracts Butler ($18.7MM,$19.8MM); Middleton ($14.1MM, $13MM) and furthermore their attitudes. Butler is a me first player who has been a detriment in the locker room if he is not the focal point on offense while Khris is a positive locker room presence who has no problem taking a backseat to Giannis and Jabari.

Butler's assist % the past two years (21.4% + 24.8%) has been higher than Middleton's peak assist rate (18.9%, 2015-16). I think Butler is just as good a playmaker, if not better, than Middleton.

I agree with garden's assessment - Butler lacks the 3ball Middleton has, but everywhere else Butler seems to be the better player. And if we're talking overall, I dont think its particularly close. Middleton had a great year in 15-16, landed him a RPM of 3.76. Butler's RPM this year (beating guys like Giannis, Durant, and Kawhi) was 6.78.. I think thats accurate.

Now the contract is a valid argument - I dont know about the attitude, I think there's a lot of factors to consider (frustration trying to win, constant roster change, constant trade rumors).. but I think there's a gulf between Butler and Middleton that those factors fall well short from bridging. And while I looooooove me some Brogdon, I really doubt that he bridges that value gap either. Butler is a surefire top 10 player in my eyes. Middleton does rank among the best SGs in my eyes, but I also devalue that position a lot more than most. I'm thinking a healthy Middleton is somewhere in my top 30-40.

[FNQ]

Bucks out: Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon
Bucks in: Jimmy Butler

I don't see the benefit from the Bucks perspective. They basically are swapping SGs of similar value while adding their rookie starting PG just because? They are also adding more salary which puts them even more over the cap. Here would be my counter offer.

Middleton, Monroe and 2017 2nd for Butler and RoLo. Helps even out the salaries while still keeping both teams competitive next season.

I--and the rest of the league for that matter--do not see Butler and Middleton as similar value, and I want no parts of Monroe, so here's a counter offer:

Middleton, Maker, Dellevadova for Butler, RoLo.

This is a pretty strong tank move by the Bulls, BTW.

Think its a strong tank move once you re-route Middleton. But you should be able to get some value of that, should a deal like that go down. I think ORL would be your first (and last) call, when they offer the #5 for him

[Streakers33]

Klay is better and the perfect fit for GSW. I think you get a boost over Beal, McCollum, Derozan, Bradley. Middleton when healthy is an amazing player. He got the flu in late March or early April and never really recovered. Even then he was a huge boost for the Bucks whenever he was on the court.

If he replaced any of the other 4 I think the team would be better with Middleton.

The Milwaukee Bucks were 22-30 before Middleton came back. They were 20-10 after he came back and that was pretty much a 100% swap with Jabari Parker. That team could have been better with both. Middleton is a difference maker.

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

Then I don't understand how you can then say that you would trade Middleton for the #6 pick in the draft.

Bulls fans talk about needing Brooklyn Pick ++ for Butler. You settle for the #6 pick.

A Middleton trade makes sense in the right situation.

That situation in my opinion is pretty much the Wolves and 76ers. A team with superstar type young talent where Middleton can come in and lead. He helps a team win and then after they get up and running he falls back into an unbelievable #3.

The only reason I would do a trade is because outside of Giannis and Middleton the Bucks are pretty starved for impact talent. If a team that saw they could jump start their team with Middleton and overpaid I would think about doing it.

What am I talking about?

76ers trade: Okafor, Saric, #4, Sacto 2019 pick
Milwaukee trades: Khris Middleton, John Henson

Why for Milwaukee: Talent infusion, They need talent.

Why for Philly: If they get a top 3 pick they will have 3 high end talented prospects with zero NBA experience. Khris Middleton helps them win games, prop up some of these rookies, and is the perfect compliment to the talent in the organization. They pay a very steep price but at the end of the day they would have Fultz, Middleton, Simmons, Embiid core.

With max cap space they could add even more impact talent.


For the Wolves it would have to be Kris Dunn, #6, Ricky Rubio, 2018 pick, 2019 pick swap, 2020 pick, Jordan Hill

For

Khris Middleton, John Henson, Mirza

This would give the Wolves a core of Towns, Wiggins, Middleton, Lavine.

It would be an overpay by both teams. But that is the only way I could see Milwaukee moving Middleton. He is just to perfect of a fit next to Giannis.

So that is the over pay side... and we have seen the other side.. so let's balance his idea for minny ... pick for 2018 isn't available .. and can we swap Cole Aldrich for hill? Deal breaker?


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[hege53190]

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

Then I don't understand how you can then say that you would trade Middleton for the #6 pick in the draft.

Bulls fans talk about needing Brooklyn Pick ++ for Butler. You settle for the #6 pick.

A Middleton trade makes sense in the right situation.

That situation in my opinion is pretty much the Wolves and 76ers. A team with superstar type young talent where Middleton can come in and lead. He helps a team win and then after they get up and running he falls back into an unbelievable #3.

The only reason I would do a trade is because outside of Giannis and Middleton the Bucks are pretty starved for impact talent. If a team that saw they could jump start their team with Middleton and overpaid I would think about doing it.

What am I talking about?

76ers trade: Okafor, Saric, #4, Sacto 2019 pick
Milwaukee trades: Khris Middleton, John Henson

Why for Milwaukee: Talent infusion, They need talent.

Why for Philly: If they get a top 3 pick they will have 3 high end talented prospects with zero NBA experience. Khris Middleton helps them win games, prop up some of these rookies, and is the perfect compliment to the talent in the organization. They pay a very steep price but at the end of the day they would have Fultz, Middleton, Simmons, Embiid core.

With max cap space they could add even more impact talent.


For the Wolves it would have to be Kris Dunn, #6, Ricky Rubio, 2018 pick, 2019 pick swap, 2020 pick, Jordan Hill

For

Khris Middleton, John Henson, Mirza

This would give the Wolves a core of Towns, Wiggins, Middleton, Lavine.

It would be an overpay by both teams. But that is the only way I could see Milwaukee moving Middleton. He is just to perfect of a fit next to Giannis.

So that is the over pay side... and we have seen the other side.. so let's balance his idea for minny ... pick for 2018 isn't available .. and can we swap Cole Aldrich for hill? Deal breaker?


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Yeah pretty much a deal breaker. The 2018 unprotected would need to be involved. Really there isn't the high end asset for Minnesota here so they need to make up for it with quantity. I don't really even like any of the pieces for Minnesota to be honest. Kris Dunn has looked bad. Ricky Rubio isn't a good fit with Giannis. The #6 pick is really a crap shoot. There is a 10% chance you get a Lillard type impact player, 40% chance you get a Nerlens Noel impact player and a 50% chance you get an Epke Udoh impact player. The chances of this player ever being better than Middleton is now is very slim.

the 2018, 2019, and 2020 picks aren't going to be that good with a Towns, Wiggins, Middleton core. This deal is pretty much throwing a lot of lines in the water and hoping something pops.

[bdpecore]

Bucks out: Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon
Bucks in: Jimmy Butler

I don't see the benefit from the Bucks perspective. They basically are swapping SGs of similar value while adding their rookie starting PG just because? They are also adding more salary which puts them even more over the cap. Here would be my counter offer.

Middleton, Monroe and 2017 2nd for Butler and RoLo. Helps even out the salaries while still keeping both teams competitive next season.

I--and the rest of the league for that matter--do not see Butler and Middleton as similar value, and I want no parts of Monroe, so here's a counter offer:

Middleton, Maker, Dellevadova for Butler, RoLo.

This is a pretty strong tank move by the Bulls, BTW.

I will simply agree to disagree with your comparison of both player's overall value not simply their production while on the floor. And I would love to hear your thoughts on how this trade puts the Bulls into a full on tank mode. Middleton and Delly are both proven NBA players while Thon has made enough progress over his rookie season to see quality playing time (19.3 mpg) in the playoffs.

[hege53190]

Bucks out: Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon
Bucks in: Jimmy Butler

I don't see the benefit from the Bucks perspective. They basically are swapping SGs of similar value while adding their rookie starting PG just because? They are also adding more salary which puts them even more over the cap. Here would be my counter offer.

Middleton, Monroe and 2017 2nd for Butler and RoLo. Helps even out the salaries while still keeping both teams competitive next season.

I--and the rest of the league for that matter--do not see Butler and Middleton as similar value, and I want no parts of Monroe, so here's a counter offer:

Middleton, Maker, Dellevadova for Butler, RoLo.

This is a pretty strong tank move by the Bulls, BTW.

And that is where the talks end. If you really believe that is a strong tank you haven't seen Middleton's impact or Maker's progression. To be honest I think they would be better with Middleton and Maker. They fit much better with DWade and Rondo.

[gardenofsound]

Maker is still a developing prospect, and RoLo is currently a far better player. Thon's ceiling is definitely higher, though, and he has much to learn (and weight to gain).

Butler leaving means Wade leaves. The Bulls likely pass on the Rondo option, and do not match any offer sheets for Mirotic. The Bulls end up with this depth chart:

PG Dellevadova, Payne, Grant, Canaan
SG Middleton, Valentine
SF Zipser, ?
PF Portis, ?
C Maker, ?

That team is one of the worst teams in the league.

[gardenofsound]

I don't see the benefit from the Bucks perspective. They basically are swapping SGs of similar value while adding their rookie starting PG just because? They are also adding more salary which puts them even more over the cap. Here would be my counter offer.

Middleton, Monroe and 2017 2nd for Butler and RoLo. Helps even out the salaries while still keeping both teams competitive next season.

I--and the rest of the league for that matter--do not see Butler and Middleton as similar value, and I want no parts of Monroe, so here's a counter offer:

Middleton, Maker, Dellevadova for Butler, RoLo.

This is a pretty strong tank move by the Bulls, BTW.

And that is where the talks end. If you really believe that is a strong tank you haven't seen Middleton's impact or Maker's progression. To be honest I think they would be better with Middleton and Maker. They fit much better with DWade and Rondo.

I'll bet Wade disagrees and chooses to decline his player option. Butler is the reason he joined the Bulls. And if the Bulls are trading Butler, that means they are embracing the tank, which means Rondo and Mirotic are gone.

[hege53190]

I--and the rest of the league for that matter--do not see Butler and Middleton as similar value, and I want no parts of Monroe, so here's a counter offer:

Middleton, Maker, Dellevadova for Butler, RoLo.

This is a pretty strong tank move by the Bulls, BTW.

And that is where the talks end. If you really believe that is a strong tank you haven't seen Middleton's impact or Maker's progression. To be honest I think they would be better with Middleton and Maker. They fit much better with DWade and Rondo.

I'll bet Wade disagrees and chooses to decline his player option. Butler is the reason he joined the Bulls. And if the Bulls are trading Butler, that means they are embracing the tank, which means Rondo and Mirotic are gone.

You think Wade is turning down a $23.8 million option? Wow.

[gardenofsound]

And that is where the talks end. If you really believe that is a strong tank you haven't seen Middleton's impact or Maker's progression. To be honest I think they would be better with Middleton and Maker. They fit much better with DWade and Rondo.

I'll bet Wade disagrees and chooses to decline his player option. Butler is the reason he joined the Bulls. And if the Bulls are trading Butler, that means they are embracing the tank, which means Rondo and Mirotic are gone.

You think Wade is turning down a $23.8 million option? Wow.

If Butler isn't in Chicago, yes, I think it's just about guaranteed he turns it down. He has pretty much said so in interviews.

[hege53190]

I'll bet Wade disagrees and chooses to decline his player option. Butler is the reason he joined the Bulls. And if the Bulls are trading Butler, that means they are embracing the tank, which means Rondo and Mirotic are gone.

You think Wade is turning down a $23.8 million option? Wow.

If Butler isn't in Chicago, yes, I think it's just about guaranteed he turns it down. He has pretty much said so in interviews.

That is nice. Vlade also said he wasn't trading Cousins. Everything said in interviews is 100% fact. I think Wade is smart enough to look at the landscape and realize he isn't getting anywhere near 23.8 a year anymore and I don't think he pulls a David West and lights Millions of dollars on fire.

[bdpecore]

Maker is still a developing prospect, and RoLo is currently a far better player. Thon's ceiling is definitely higher, though, and he has much to learn (and weight to gain).

Butler leaving means Wade leaves. The Bulls likely pass on the Rondo option, and do not match any offer sheets for Mirotic. The Bulls end up with this depth chart:

PG Dellevadova, Payne, Grant, Canaan
SG Middleton, Valentine
SF Zipser, ?
PF Portis, ?
C Maker, ?

That team is one of the worst teams in the league.

I'm not convinced DWade would opt out based on this deal alone. It actually adds three players who compliment his game quite well. This trade also leaves them with roughly $30MM in cap space to go after another big name player like Griffin, Ibaka or even CP3.

PG - Delladova, Payne, Canaan
SG - Wade, Valentine
SF - Middleton, Zipser
PF - Griffin, Mirotic/Lauvergne, Portis
C - Maker, Felicio

PG and C are a bit week but with a core of DWade, Middleton and Griffin I'm sure they could find a quality veteran at either or both positions who would sign for MLE or BAE money. Guys like Zaza, Dedmon, Withey, Deron Williams, Livingston, Collison and even Matt Barnes all come to mind as good fits would might be interested in playing in Chicago.

Edit: Sefolosha and PJ Tucker are two more names I just thought of.

[Trader_Joe]

An interesting side not in this thread...Should we calling Harden a SG or PG? Especially with the Harden/Westbrook debates. And does Harden's value fluctuate as a PG vs. SG?

I'd call him a SG, mainly because I define what a position is by who they guard most frequently.

Harden defends?
Doesn't Beverly take the tougher assignment regardless?

Harden had his best year as a PG and led the league in assists and I figure he'll be there for some time. Not sure what he would play on most teams admittedly tho, but it's an interesting question.

[FNQ]

An interesting side not in this thread...Should we calling Harden a SG or PG? Especially with the Harden/Westbrook debates. And does Harden's value fluctuate as a PG vs. SG?

I'd call him a SG, mainly because I define what a position is by who they guard most frequently.

Harden defends?
Doesn't Beverly take the tougher assignment regardless?

Harden had his best year as a PG and led the league in assists and I figure he'll be there for some time. Not sure what he would play on most teams admittedly tho, but it's an interesting question.

IIRC, and I might not, Beverly usually guards the PG because that is a far more impactful position. But if the other team's primary ballhandler was the 'SG', just like the Rockets, I'd imagine they'd switch it up. Beverly seems to be the guy defending their ballhandler most often - I cant remember a scenario where Harden was guarding the team's primary ballhandler. Feel like that would be ugly over a sustained amount of time

[Pinkyring]

And that is where the talks end. If you really believe that is a strong tank you haven't seen Middleton's impact or Maker's progression. To be honest I think they would be better with Middleton and Maker. They fit much better with DWade and Rondo.

I'll bet Wade disagrees and chooses to decline his player option. Butler is the reason he joined the Bulls. And if the Bulls are trading Butler, that means they are embracing the tank, which means Rondo and Mirotic are gone.

You think Wade is turning down a $23.8 million option? Wow.

I think he'll turn it down regardless. I think he can easily get a 3/45 deal

[Streakers33]

Then I don't understand how you can then say that you would trade Middleton for the #6 pick in the draft.

Bulls fans talk about needing Brooklyn Pick ++ for Butler. You settle for the #6 pick.

A Middleton trade makes sense in the right situation.

That situation in my opinion is pretty much the Wolves and 76ers. A team with superstar type young talent where Middleton can come in and lead. He helps a team win and then after they get up and running he falls back into an unbelievable #3.

The only reason I would do a trade is because outside of Giannis and Middleton the Bucks are pretty starved for impact talent. If a team that saw they could jump start their team with Middleton and overpaid I would think about doing it.

What am I talking about?

76ers trade: Okafor, Saric, #4, Sacto 2019 pick
Milwaukee trades: Khris Middleton, John Henson

Why for Milwaukee: Talent infusion, They need talent.

Why for Philly: If they get a top 3 pick they will have 3 high end talented prospects with zero NBA experience. Khris Middleton helps them win games, prop up some of these rookies, and is the perfect compliment to the talent in the organization. They pay a very steep price but at the end of the day they would have Fultz, Middleton, Simmons, Embiid core.

With max cap space they could add even more impact talent.


For the Wolves it would have to be Kris Dunn, #6, Ricky Rubio, 2018 pick, 2019 pick swap, 2020 pick, Jordan Hill

For

Khris Middleton, John Henson, Mirza

This would give the Wolves a core of Towns, Wiggins, Middleton, Lavine.

It would be an overpay by both teams. But that is the only way I could see Milwaukee moving Middleton. He is just to perfect of a fit next to Giannis.

So that is the over pay side... and we have seen the other side.. so let's balance his idea for minny ... pick for 2018 isn't available .. and can we swap Cole Aldrich for hill? Deal breaker?


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Yeah pretty much a deal breaker. The 2018 unprotected would need to be involved. Really there isn't the high end asset for Minnesota here so they need to make up for it with quantity. I don't really even like any of the pieces for Minnesota to be honest. Kris Dunn has looked bad. Ricky Rubio isn't a good fit with Giannis. The #6 pick is really a crap shoot. There is a 10% chance you get a Lillard type impact player, 40% chance you get a Nerlens Noel impact player and a 50% chance you get an Epke Udoh impact player. The chances of this player ever being better than Middleton is now is very slim.

the 2018, 2019, and 2020 picks aren't going to be that good with a Towns, Wiggins, Middleton core. This deal is pretty much throwing a lot of lines in the water and hoping something pops.

So let's keep trying
Rubio, Dunn, pick six, hill, Nemanja bjelica, brogan dubljevik, pick swap 2019, pick swap 2020.
Two euro prospects one was ok last year and dub comes over this year.
We don't have our 2018 pick..

For

Middleton, Henson , mizra


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[hege53190]

So that is the over pay side... and we have seen the other side.. so let's balance his idea for minny ... pick for 2018 isn't available .. and can we swap Cole Aldrich for hill? Deal breaker?


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Yeah pretty much a deal breaker. The 2018 unprotected would need to be involved. Really there isn't the high end asset for Minnesota here so they need to make up for it with quantity. I don't really even like any of the pieces for Minnesota to be honest. Kris Dunn has looked bad. Ricky Rubio isn't a good fit with Giannis. The #6 pick is really a crap shoot. There is a 10% chance you get a Lillard type impact player, 40% chance you get a Nerlens Noel impact player and a 50% chance you get an Epke Udoh impact player. The chances of this player ever being better than Middleton is now is very slim.

the 2018, 2019, and 2020 picks aren't going to be that good with a Towns, Wiggins, Middleton core. This deal is pretty much throwing a lot of lines in the water and hoping something pops.

So let's keep trying
Rubio, Dunn, pick six, hill, Nemanja bjelica, brogan dubljevik, pick swap 2019, pick swap 2020.
Two euro prospects one was ok last year and dub comes over this year.
We don't have our 2018 pick..

For

Middleton, Henson , mizra


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Yeah I don't know then. The more I look at the package the more under whelmed I am. Without the ability to add picks I am not sure the value can be made up for me. Adding 28 year old Europeans don't really make up the value at all.

[TheDominator273]

If the Wolves take back Hensen and Mirza they aren't adding in Rubio to the trade. Besides Rubio being a poor fit for the Bucks he would be far more useful to the Wolves than the value he'd bring back. Not to mention they would be left with just Tyus Jones at PG having dealt their other two along with their pick...don't see that happening.

The goal of adding Middleton to the Wolves is to provide good defense, perimeter shooting, and vet leadership. He's around the same age as Rubio and having them together alongside the core 3 of KAT, Wiggins and LaVine propels them to a playoff team, and if the 3 younger players grow in the right ways eventually to contender status as Rubio and Middleton phase into more support roles.

Also while the Wolves can't outright trade their 2018 pick, it is lottery protected so they could be creative in the protections and include it in a deal. ie pick swap or trade the rights to the pick if it falls in the lottery.

How does Dunn, #6, Hill (non guaranteed if waived by 6/20) for Middleton, Henson or Teletovic, #17 sound?

Wolves do it because they covet what Middleton brings to the table as an all around player and it shows confidence in Rubio as the PG and leader of the team.

Bucks do it to gain Dunn's defense at PG with his lack of playmaking hidden by Giannis being the PG on offense. They slide Brogdan to the 2. They also get out of one of their bad contracts. They also move up in a highly thought of draft and position themselves to land an insurance policy for Jabari by taking Isaac.

[Captain Ballmer]

If CP3 decides to leave clippers this summer, i would offer DeAndre for Middleton in the next minute. I could even be ok with taking that ugly Henson contract for a second round pick. However, DJ's contract is up for 2018 summer, so bucks could easily say no for a one year rental DJ. Middleton has a top 10 value amongs all the contracts around 10-16M$

[hege53190]

If the Wolves take back Hensen and Mirza they aren't adding in Rubio to the trade. Besides Rubio being a poor fit for the Bucks he would be far more useful to the Wolves than the value he'd bring back. Not to mention they would be left with just Tyus Jones at PG having dealt their other two along with their pick...don't see that happening.

The goal of adding Middleton to the Wolves is to provide good defense, perimeter shooting, and vet leadership. He's around the same age as Rubio and having them together alongside the core 3 of KAT, Wiggins and LaVine propels them to a playoff team, and if the 3 younger players grow in the right ways eventually to contender status as Rubio and Middleton phase into more support roles.

Also while the Wolves can't outright trade their 2018 pick, it is lottery protected so they could be creative in the protections and include it in a deal. ie pick swap or trade the rights to the pick if it falls in the lottery.

How does Dunn, #6, Hill (non guaranteed if waived by 6/20) for Middleton, Henson or Teletovic, #17 sound?

Wolves do it because they covet what Middleton brings to the table as an all around player and it shows confidence in Rubio as the PG and leader of the team.

Bucks do it to gain Dunn's defense at PG with his lack of playmaking hidden by Giannis being the PG on offense. They slide Brogdan to the 2. They also get out of one of their bad contracts. They also move up in a highly thought of draft and position themselves to land an insurance policy for Jabari by taking Isaac.

So The Bucks say no to Dunn, 6, Hill, Rubio and Pick swaps for Middleton, Henson, and Teletovic so you counter with taking out Rubio from your side and adding in 17 while taking out salary?


Yeah. Hell no to that. I love your explanation for why the Wolves do it though. Instead of making up some convoluted way of saying Middleton is a perfect fit for the Wolves you should have just said because the Wolves bend the Bucks over a table and have their way with them.

Let's make it simple. If Middleton is going to the Wolves and Towns or Wiggins are not involved then there is no way in hell the #17 should even be talked about.