For the next top 100 project, all people who live in reality, please convene here

[batmana]

Well, the one most egregious thing about the top 100 to me is Garnett's ranking. I probably won't participate in the top 100 ranking so I will post this here:

You say the number in the ranking doesn't matter, the discussion matters. That's great and I really enjoyed reading an archived project several years ago but in the end of the day if the numbers in the rankings don't matter, we could simply do tiers, right? Saying rankings don't matter is a bit of a cop-out to me. That's a bit like saying titles don't matter... (but we know they do).

Having this in mind, I have noticed that there are people who are more vocal in such projects and who go to great lengths defending their position. Usually those people manage to sway some of the undecideds. I have an opinion about player A above player B, I voice it and I give my reasoning but I am not trying to sway anyone else (and frankly I don't think I should be swaying people's opinions) and I would probably not post 10 more times in the same thread, I already gave my opinion and my vote.

The thing I disagree with the most regarding Garnett is how he is "an unlucky Duncan" according to some posters. Putting players in hypothetical situations is after all something we all do when comparing players (especially across eras) but in the end cold hard facts should have a lot more weight. There is no evidence Garnett would have traded careers with Duncan if they simply switched places for their entire careers. We have evidence and the cold hard facts are what happened. From what happened I reach the conclusion that Garnett is simply a worse version of Duncan - worse defender, unreliable as a go-to scorer, worse leader, worse basketball player. However I do not care enough to try and sway every undecided fan with endless posts about this. I am simply stating my opinion and moving on.

I don't know when this infatuation with Garnett started but in my personal rankings he is outside of the top 20. I don't think there is another top 20 or top 30 player who is off in my ranking by nearly as many spots as Garnett. Maybe I am wrong, maybe those players are in the same tier and the numbers don't really matter that much, I don't know. I know that I was present for the entirety of Garnett and Kobe's careers and Kobe is a better player than Garnett. And I don't even like Kobe, I am a Shaq guy. However, I do not care that much to try to sway other people's opinions. I know I couldn't be swayed if I have a hard stance on something so it seems futile to try and sway someone else.

I am glad that I found the place to post this without putting it in the actual top 100 project and stalling the discussion in it, whether I decide to join or not. I honestly enjoy the discussion and I'll do my best to keep track of the project.

[THKNKG]

Well, this is awkward. I have KG top 10, Magic out of top 5, and Kobe definitely out of top 10... I was hoping to persuade people with sound argumentation but I guess I should just start a political campaign instead.

[Xherdan 23]

While I disagree that the rankings don't matter, I think they're not the most important part or even the point of the project.

Grouping enough people who think Kobe is top 10 or KG is top 5 or Iverson is the undisputed GOAT is just stupid.

I don't really care (and frankly, I don't think anyone does) WHERE you rank a player, in this project I want to hear WHY you think he ranks there.

If you make a good case I'll agree with you and vote the same as you, but if you just collect enough people who agree with you without much of a reason, then I think you'll get the list you like but the point of this project will be completely missed and that list is ultimately meaningless.

[THKNKG]

Plus, is saying that only people who hold to the same views as you "live in reality," the route you want to go?

[Woodsanity]

When u look at the whole body of work...or have consistant criteria for there rankings...its a further reach to exclude Kobe out of the top 10 rather than in it...certainly at this point imo. But i do want to hear what case people have to say otherwise...

I can see a case for Magic being out of top 5 (i personally dont)...especially if we include Russell and older players in the argument

With KG....i can see a case being just in the top 12 (tho i personally dont).

I dont think ppl with left field opinions should be excluded....reason and common sense most often than not prevails in a proper open forum where properly managed discussion takes place

MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Hakeem

Just on the top of my head. I rank all of those guys ahead of Kobe. Which one is Kobe better than all time? There are a few more debatables as well.

[Jim Naismith]

a strategy thread for us guys who know these things to make sure the project turns out the way it needs to and we can vote accordingly.

[AdagioPace]

I'd put Garnett anywhere from 5 to 12

My top 10

Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Garnett
Wilt
Bird or Russell

Bird or Russel out of the top 10 might seem blasphemous,what convinced me of this view is, respectively: lack of longevity and two way playing for Bird... "mono-playing" and doubtful competition for Russell
(premise: I've got nothing against the Celtics, I swear )

[therealbig3]

What a terrible thread.

[rebirthoftheM]

Honestly, depending on one's criteria, it is entirely reasonable for one to conclude that KG>Kobe, or that Kobe is not a top 10 player of all time. Of course, I might vigorously disagree with the criteria used (and I find the KG>Kobe argument very weak), but as long as the criteria is consistent, then you cannot complain about the final outcome. The debate should be at the level of criteria, and then from there, discussions on the applications of it to a given player.

But what is absurd when folks misconstrue Kobe's career and approach it with a biased lens. Key facts are ignored, and certain deficiencies are overblown as it pertains to him, but not applied universally. Consistency and nuance is lost when it comes to Kobe.

[mysticOscar]

When u look at the whole body of work...or have consistant criteria for there rankings...its a further reach to exclude Kobe out of the top 10 rather than in it...certainly at this point imo. But i do want to hear what case people have to say otherwise...

I can see a case for Magic being out of top 5 (i personally dont)...especially if we include Russell and older players in the argument

With KG....i can see a case being just in the top 12 (tho i personally dont).

I dont think ppl with left field opinions should be excluded....reason and common sense most often than not prevails in a proper open forum where properly managed discussion takes place

MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Hakeem

Just on the top of my head. I rank all of those guys ahead of Kobe. Which one is Kobe better than all time? There are a few more debatables as well.

Good list although i cant really speak for Wilt or Russell since they were before my time...but it nakes sense to have them in top 10.

Whats ur case for Bird and Hakeem over Kobe?

[ardee]

What a terrible thread.

Why?

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

[Texas Chuck]

If the OP is serious in his post, I would discourage his participation. I hate to say that. I think projects are best with as many different people and perspectives involved. But anyone openly attempting to manipulate the list probably is going to be more of a detriment than an asset to the project.

I think its perfectly okay to have players you feel strongly about good or bad and to make impassioned posts supporting your position. If you feel KG is unworthy of a high ranking than as he starts coming up for discussion, by all means lay our your case. And if you think Kobe deserves a higher ranking well start making your case itt for the ranking you believe he deserves.

But this..... nah I can't get with you on this. And you know I typically stand up for anyone who is willing to blaze their own trail here so it disappoints me that I am suggesting you don't participate if this is your honest agenda.

[Xherdan 23]

What a terrible thread.

Why?

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

Let's start with you thinking it's not realistic to rank Magic outside of top 5, Kobe outside of top 10 and KG in the top 12.

While I might agree on some of these and open to change my mind on some, claiming it's an unreasonable ranking because YOU say so is not a great way to start.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't really care (and frankly, I don't think anyone does) WHERE you rank a player, in this project I want to hear WHY you think he ranks there.

If you make a good case I'll agree with you and vote the same as you, but if you just collect enough people who agree with you without much of a reason, then I think you'll get the list you like but the point of this project will be completely missed and that list is ultimately meaningless.

Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

And ironically considering the person the thread is about---I spent years on this board supporting Dirk over KG(yes my bias is a factor) yet during the last top 100 project the guys making the case for KG did a great job and I ended up voting for KG before I voted for Dirk. I could have just kept blindly arguing with them without really listening, but the only person who would have suffered would have been me.

[MyUniBroDavis]

wait instead of organizing a group to vote your players in why dont you organize a group to actually make a good arguement? and by that i mean organize a group to message d-nice

[PaulieWal]

What a terrible thread.

Why?

Sent from my SM-J700F using RealGM mobile app

It's a bad thread because right off the bat all you are doing is taking potshots at people who don't agree with you and you are basically looking to organize votes in a way which reflects your opinions of certain players like Kobe and KG. For the record I don't even agree with KG being better than Kobe necessarily but this kind of thread is not what I expect from a smart poster like you.

[microfib4thewin]

I find it more interesting to read the research of material that people come up with than the ranking itself. I have a deeper appreciation of Hakeem and D-Rob because of the last top 100 project, and I look forward to reading more of those and maybe do some digging on my own to join the discussion.

[trex_8063]

While I disagree that the rankings don't matter, I think they're not the most important part or even the point of the project.

Grouping enough people who think Kobe is top 10 or KG is top 5 or Iverson is the undisputed GOAT is just stupid.

I don't really care (and frankly, I don't think anyone does) WHERE you rank a player, in this project I want to hear WHY you think he ranks there.

Well said.

If you make a good case I'll agree with you and vote the same as you...

I don't think I've ever been convinced to flip-flop as quickly as you're implying, but only because ideas with any remotely firm intellectual grounding tend to have deep roots. But it's like with various public awareness campaigns: swaying public opinion takes time. I have definitely had my opinion on various matters/players swayed significant distance gradually over long periods of time as result of debate on this forum.

[toodles23]

I'm not going to participate in the project (I don't feel like I can give the time commitment to do a good job).

However... shouldn't this thread be grounds to disallow ardee from participating? Assuming this isn't a troll job, he's openly talking about manipulating the project so that the rankings match his own preconceived notions. And as we've already talked about, the important part of this project isn't the rankings, it's the discussion, and having people in the project who's goal is to make sure the rankings turn out a certain way is a good way to guarantee a poisoned discussion.

I don't think I've ever been convinced to flip-flop as quickly as you're implying, but only because ideas with any remotely firm intellectual grounding tend to have deep roots. But it's like with various public awareness campaigns: swaying public opinion takes time. I have definitely had my opinion on various matters/players swayed significant distance gradually over long periods of time as result of debate on this forum.

And this. I've had tons of my basketball opinions changed in the 7 years I've been here, because I found other people's arguments convincing.

[Xherdan 23]

While I disagree that the rankings don't matter, I think they're not the most important part or even the point of the project.

Grouping enough people who think Kobe is top 10 or KG is top 5 or Iverson is the undisputed GOAT is just stupid.

I don't really care (and frankly, I don't think anyone does) WHERE you rank a player, in this project I want to hear WHY you think he ranks there.

Well said.

If you make a good case I'll agree with you and vote the same as you...

I don't think I've ever been convinced to flip-flop as quickly as you're implying, but only because ideas with any remotely firm intellectual grounding tend to have deep roots. But it's like with various public awareness campaigns: swaying public opinion takes time. I have definitely had my opinion on various matters/players swayed significant distance gradually over long periods of time as result of debate on this forum.

Yeah, I'm probably not gonna move Pippen into my top 15 but I am very open to any order of Dirk/K. Malone/Barkley or Shaq/Magic/Hakeem.

Some things I feel very strongly about so it would be like you said a process but I honestly could see an argument for Bill Russel at #1 or #20 (and if that scares anyone, don't worry, I'm not going to participate in this project ).