The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

[The_Hater]

A JV and Horford front court with a PG that can get his own shot AND facilitate and 2 shooters at the sg and sf spot would be brilliant.

Except Horford plays Center. If we had Horford, we wouldn't need JV at all. Horford and Ibaka is more modern set of bigs who can shoot, pass and defend as a tandem.

Except horford performs better as a PF and by far prefers to play that position.

I'm not sure why you think this is true. He's been paying predominantly Center for several seasons now (including 98% of his minutes this season) and the Celtics just saved their season by going to a starting lineup of 4 guards around Horford against the Bulls. He might prefer to play PG too but he's still best utilized as a Center.

[Ell Curry]

If we can't put up a real fight in this series, I think a tank isn't a bad idea. The only real alternative is to fire Casey and I think he's a decent coach and there isn't some obvious upgrade out there who is going to turn DeRozan into an efficient player or improve our D more than Casey, who managed to hide Dirk when Dallas won the title and is generally considered a fine defensive mind who Carlisle (I think the league's best coach, at least top 3) rated highly.

I love Lowry but it's a massive risk to pay a small guard until he's 36, and without him I don't think think we're particularly good. He's been a top 15-20 regular season player and we're basically a 50 win type team with him. If he fades into a top 50 guy I think we'd drop to a 45 or so win team and that's basically a middle of the pack team since we're in the East.

And the tank wouldn't be starting from scratch. If we keep Powell, Wright and Van Vleet as guards, the 23rd pick, Siakam and Bruno as forwards and Poeltl as our starting 5, we could deal DeRozan for a big return, Valanciaunas for a medium sized one, Joseph for a small return and maybe a sign and trade of one or two of Lowry, Ibaka, Patterson or Tucker. Don't think Carroll will bring back much, though, there's less cap space out there than people think and a desperate team like the Clippers might be happy to trade a 1st and Jamal Crawford for Carroll and a 2nd rounder. We could take back some ugly 1-2 year deals without it really affecting us.

We'd be bad but fun with our young guards being decent but an awful frontcourt and one of the 8 teams that should outright suck next year along with LA, Sacramento, Phoenix, Brooklyn, New York, Orlando and Philly, with maybe one of those teams surprising as someone like Booker or Embiid makes a leap or a team like Orlando or LA looks competent in their coaches' 2nd season. So, a top 7 pick and whatever we can get for those trade assets, I'm thinking a lottery pick or equivalent young talent for DeRozan than maybe another couple late 1sts in future years for the rest. Definitely a chance we end up becoming Orlando and drafting between 5 and 12 every year, but I think we'd be closer to 5 than 12 the next 2 years and I trust Masai to draft.

[PhilBlackson]

I doubt we "blow it up" per say but I would let Lowry walk.

1. He's on the wrong side of 30, that's continuing to show EVERY year when he's broken down physically by the time Playoffs start
2. He's a part of a dying breed of small PGs which can't defend larger PGs well enough
3. He's just not good enough to validate a max contract and being in the luxury just to be LeBron's fluffer for a couple more years when in all likelihood he will be worn out/broken down before LBJ is and then the Giannis era begins (which could be sooner than later, personally I think the Bucks will be as good as us by next year and clearly better by the following one)

[CoachJReturns]

If we can't put up a real fight in this series, I think a tank isn't a bad idea. The only real alternative is to fire Casey and I think he's a decent coach and there isn't some obvious upgrade out there who is going to turn DeRozan into an efficient player or improve our D more than Casey, who managed to hide Dirk when Dallas won the title and is generally considered a fine defensive mind who Carlisle (I think the league's best coach, at least top 3) rated highly.

I love Lowry but it's a massive risk to pay a small guard until he's 36, and without him I don't think think we're particularly good. He's been a top 15-20 regular season player and we're basically a 50 win type team with him. If he fades into a top 50 guy I think we'd drop to a 45 or so win team and that's basically a middle of the pack team since we're in the East.

And the tank wouldn't be starting from scratch. If we keep Powell, Wright and Van Vleet as guards, the 23rd pick, Siakam and Bruno as forwards and Poeltl as our starting 5, we could deal DeRozan for a big return, Valanciaunas for a medium sized one, Joseph for a small return and maybe a sign and trade of one or two of Lowry, Ibaka, Patterson or Tucker. Don't think Carroll will bring back much, though, there's less cap space out there than people think and a desperate team like the Clippers might be happy to trade a 1st and Jamal Crawford for Carroll and a 2nd rounder. We could take back some ugly 1-2 year deals without it really affecting us.

We'd be bad but fun with our young guards being decent but an awful frontcourt and one of the 8 teams that should outright suck next year along with LA, Sacramento, Phoenix, Brooklyn, New York, Orlando and Philly, with maybe one of those teams surprising as someone like Booker or Embiid makes a leap or a team like Orlando or LA looks competent in their coaches' 2nd season. So, a top 7 pick and whatever we can get for those trade assets, I'm thinking a lottery pick or equivalent young talent for DeRozan than maybe another couple late 1sts in future years for the rest. Definitely a chance we end up becoming Orlando and drafting between 5 and 12 every year, but I think we'd be closer to 5 than 12 the next 2 years and I trust Masai to draft.

We've brought up the prospect of replacing Casey a lot, particularly with Stackhouse. I'd love Stack to take over, but I don't think any coach including Pop would take this team beyond an eastern conference finals appearance and that's with everything going our way. It's a tem with very good depth, but it has always lacked that superstar/hall of fame/mvp/all NBA first team type of player, which is usually a prerequisite to be a serious contender. There's nothing necessarily wrong with not being a legit contender, as there are usually only 1-3 teams each year with a real shot at a title. However, when a large piece of your core is going to get worse over the coruse of his huge contract and gets hurt every year, you're setting yourself up for a long and painful decline in the future. This team looks a hell of a lot like the Hawks to me and I don't mean that as a good thing.

[carlosey]

Blow it up after its taken us like 15 years to get here is a dumb idea.

Get a scoring sf. bring biyombo back. adjust however nessesary but blowing it up is just hoping well get back to this spot with no guarantee.

[CoachJReturns]

Blow it up after its taken us like 15 years to get here is a dumb idea.

Get a scoring sf. bring biyombo back. adjust however nessesary but blowing it up is just hoping well get back to this spot with no guarantee.

Great plan. What small forward is available? Calling any idea dumb without giving specifics of your own master plan is just being an ass. But that seems to be the attitude of all the homer fans around here.

[monstermash]

You can't just blow it up. People need to recognise that you have to have an elite superstar level player to be a true finals contender. We don't have one. The only way you get one is in the draft or way less rarely in a trade like the Harden one.

We aren't bad enough to tank. Basically we acquire assets (prospects and picks) while competing as a perennial playoff team (with a realistic conference finals ceiling) and hope to draft/trade for someone that develops beyond their draft position (e.g., Kawhi and Curry) or act on the opportunity to do a Harden type trade if such a situation arises.

If 2 of our top 3 players weren't on the wrong side of 30, or trending downwards I would be more open to this possibility. But one of our two all-stars hobbles into the playoffs every year and will be a 31 year old point guard on a max, or near max deal. I know the response to that is we can trade him, but the market for an aging player who plays the deepest position in the league(it's kind of absurd how many good point guards there are in this era) probably isn't very strong. We might just get handcuffed with his contract like the Knicks with Melo.
Serge is solid, but he's reached his peak and despite what some may say on our forum, he is not the dominant defender he used to be and is trending downward.

So if the idea is to get lucky in the draft we run into an obvious issue. Even if we drafted a stud with a late pick, by the time they were ready to turn this team around we would be no better off because 1 of our 2 stars was no longer the same player.
I get the desire to see a team that wins more often that it loses, particularly when this franchise has done so much of the opposite. I mean they didn't even tank well most of the time.( That year where we were waiting for JV to come over from Europe should have been a full out tank and we picked 9th lol.)
I just don't think we'll ever get further than we did last year as long as DeMar and Kyle are here. So I feel it makes more sense to put more of an emphasis on developing the young guys rather than just making the playoffs for the sake of making the playoffs(which half the teams in the league do by the way), but that's just my opinion.

If we draft someone who ends up being elite it doesn't matter if Kyle and DeMar have lost a step. You would build around the new guy.

Anyway, at this point an ambitious idea would be to sign and trade Lowry to the Sixers. That young team needs veteran leadership and a PG - Lowry would be ideal (plus it's his hometown). They can also afford to have a max contract on the books. The trade would be centered around the #4 pick, a future 1st, and rounded out with someone like Covington coming our way. We get an infusion of young talent and a future pick to play with. Delon takes over at the point.

Side.

So let me get this straight. You're saying if you were in the Sixers position, you would do that trade?! Give your head a shake! You would give up those picks for a player who, although plays fearless and has some heart, is definitely on the wrong side of 30 and starting to break down. No way, Jose!

[StopitLeo]

Side.

So let me get this straight. You're saying if you were in the Sixers position, you would do that trade?! Give your head a shake! You would give up those picks for a player who, although plays fearless and has some heart, is definitely on the wrong side of 30 and starting to break down. No way, Jose!

If the Sixers feel they are ready to start competing with Embid and Simmons healthy then yes. They don't need another lottery pick more than they need a PG and veteran leadership to move towards that goal.

Their cap situation lets them easily handle a max deal for Lowry since they have almost nobody on the books after the next two seasons.

Plus, Colangelo.

[KevinOConnorNBA]

Someone tweeted me about this thread and I am very happy to see that it was revived. I'm not re-joining this to say, "I told you so," because I wouldn't and the offseason hasn't even come yet anyway, but merely to ask: How has the postseason changed your perspective of the Raptors' future? Does it increase interest in a rebuild? Or does nothing change because they're still a top East team?

[Zeno]

Consider? Consider?

[JaysRule15]

Someone tweeted me about this thread and I am very happy to see that it was revived. I'm not re-joining this to say, "I told you so," because I wouldn't and the offseason hasn't even come yet anyway, but merely to ask: How has the postseason changed your perspective of the Raptors' future? Does it increase interest in a rebuild? Or does nothing change because they're still a top East team?

lmao. Savage. Well played man.

[GenuineRapCrack]

I wouldnt blow it up. As much as i want this team to be in Bucks position, i would give this team one more year with another coach.
Mind you, Lowry's got to go for a better play making, defensive minded & 3 point shooter PG. A coach that like to see ball movement. And consistent 3 point shooters for Pat and Carrol. With these changes, i would give them one more year.

That is wishful thinking though.

[lobosloboslobos]

Side.

So let me get this straight. You're saying if you were in the Sixers position, you would do that trade?! Give your head a shake! You would give up those picks for a player who, although plays fearless and has some heart, is definitely on the wrong side of 30 and starting to break down. No way, Jose!

If the Sixers feel they are ready to start competing with Embid and Simmons healthy then yes. They don't need another lottery pick more than they need a PG and veteran leadership to move towards that goal.

Their cap situation lets them easily handle a max deal for Lowry since they have almost nobody on the books after the next two seasons.

Plus, Colangelo.

Why would Lowry go along with this? If he knew he was going to end up with the Sixers why not just sign there and play for a team with many more assets? Or do you think Masai can trick him into signing for us instead of the Sixers by convinving him he is our future and then trade him to the Sixers? Surely that would be considered an extreme doublecross?

[Wonderllama]

The Ringer is smart. They knew what had to happen before it became dead obvious by watching these playoffs

[Tortiglioni]

The Ringer is smart. They knew what had to happen before it became dead obvious by watching these playoffs

It was dead obvious to many after the 2014 playoffs (and again after the 2015 playoffs, and then again after the 2016 playoffs).

[RaptorsLife]

Next year draft isn't even good. Just give this core 1 year with a new coach. They will most likely fail because putting too blame on casey and not on the players. A new coach won't solve everything.

Then trade everyone away and tank in 2018

[KevinOConnorNBA]

Next year draft isn't even good. Just give this core 1 year with a new coach. They will most likely fail because putting too blame on casey and not on the players. A new coach won't solve everything.

Then trade everyone away and tank in 2018

That's essentially what I proposed—re-sign Lowry, then go into next season with all intentions of acquiring another star. The chances are it won't happen. Pull the plug in December, trade everyone. Except you're wrong about the 2018 draft. It's friggin' loaded. There's multiple potential cornerstones.

[MavCarter]

Next year draft isn't even good. Just give this core 1 year with a new coach. They will most likely fail because putting too blame on casey and not on the players. A new coach won't solve everything.

Then trade everyone away and tank in 2018

That's essentially what I proposed—re-sign Lowry, then go into next season with all intentions of acquiring another star. The chances are it won't happen. Pull the plug in December, trade everyone. Except you're wrong about the 2018 draft. It's friggin' loaded. There's multiple potential cornerstones.

Who are they? None of the prospects in 2018 really scream "superstar" to me

[Syd-TK3]

Tank for RJ barrett

[MavCarter]

Tank for RJ barrett

RJ looks underwhelming af i have no clue why he's ranked #1 lmao. Wiggins looked like a much better hs prospect