Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition]

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,539
And1: 22,533
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#661 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 5, 2017 4:29 pm

GeneralManager wrote:
PockyCandy wrote:That hand-checking may be outlawed, but it still happens. One of these days, I'll make a video giving several examples of this.


"Anecdote" is not a synonym for "data." A video with several examples doesn't prove anything.


Sure it does in a case like this.

You don't accidentally hand-check someone. It's either part of your game, or it isn't. If his video shows multiple guys doing this confidently and casually without getting caught, that speaks volumes.

And I guess speaking more generally:

People really aren't good at knowing what they can glean from highlights, and what they can't. The key distinction is about process rather than result.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
ShotCreator
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,825
And1: 2,537
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#662 » by ShotCreator » Fri May 5, 2017 5:27 pm

Gary Payton and Scottie Pippen are the most overrated defenders in NBA history. Payton was not even the third-best defender on his team in his defensive peak of 1995-96. Pippen was only the best defender on a team he played for just once, 1994-95. He was never close to best defender in the NBA.
Swinging for the fences.
jaypo
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,281
And1: 436
Joined: May 02, 2007

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#663 » by jaypo » Fri May 5, 2017 6:18 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Gary Payton and Scottie Pippen are the most overrated defenders in NBA history. Payton was not even the third-best defender on his team in his defensive peak of 1995-96. Pippen was only the best defender on a team he played for just once, 1994-95. He was never close to best defender in the NBA.


So a player nicknamed "the Glove" for his defensive prowess was not a great defender? Or a player dubbed by most NBA personalities as one of the best defenders in history (Pip)?

I'm not sure if you watched any of their games, but you're talking about 2 of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

My friend, without Pip's defense, MJ isn't the GOAT. Pip was doing most of the heavy lifting on defense during their tenure together.
User avatar
Goudelock
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,306
And1: 20,938
Joined: Jan 27, 2015
Location: College of Charleston
 

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#664 » by Goudelock » Fri May 5, 2017 6:46 pm

Second time I've said about Durant, but after going over to the GB, I feel like saying some things about him:

1: It's extremely hypocritical of the media/casual fans to talk about how winning rings is the only thing that matters, but when Durant goes to GSW because he just wants rings, he's vilified for it. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, the only thing that matters is RINGGZZZZ right? No one ever said how you win the rings matters until this year.

2: I also seem to hear a lot about how Durant would get broken in half if he played during the 80's. To which I say, Gervin and English did just fine in that era. And for what it's worth, Durant would actually weigh more than any of Boston's famed front line of McHale Parish Bird.
Devin Booker wrote:Bro.
jaypo
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,281
And1: 436
Joined: May 02, 2007

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#665 » by jaypo » Fri May 5, 2017 7:00 pm

PockyCandy wrote:Second time I've said about Durant, but after going over to the GB, I feel like saying some things about him:

1: It's extremely hypocritical of the media/casual fans to talk about how winning rings is the only thing that matters, but when Durant goes to GSW because he just wants rings, he's vilified for it. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, the only thing that matters is RINGGZZZZ right? No one ever said how you win the rings matters until this year.

2: I also seem to hear a lot about how Durant would get broken in half if he played during the 80's. To which I say, Gervin and English did just fine in that era. And for what it's worth, Durant would actually weigh more than any of Boston's famed front line of McHale Parish Bird.


RINGZZZ isn't all that matters. However, when you leave like Durant and join a team that just won 73 games, it kinda cheapens the accomplishment. That would be like if Charles Barkley or Karl Malone joined the 97 Bulls and won a ring. Is it that ring that makes them a great player? Not necessarily. They were great before the ring. But they would never be able to say that they LEAD a team to a title.

How do you think Durant would handle coming thru the lane to find Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer waiting to separate him from consciousness? I'm sure he'd let you know how it felt....after he woke up!
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 17,056
And1: 11,870
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#666 » by eminence » Fri May 5, 2017 7:27 pm

Blackmill wrote:My unpopular opinion: There's over 10 legitimate GOAT candidates.


Was thinking about this one the other day, and yeah, I absolutely agree. I think I came up with ~10 guys I was completely comfortable with people arguing for. Some other guys I'm not as understanding of, but could still see people arguing for. Pretty crazy that there is that many.
I bought a boat.
FuShengTHEGreat
Analyst
Posts: 3,090
And1: 1,467
Joined: Jan 02, 2010

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#667 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Sat May 6, 2017 8:04 pm

jaypo wrote:
Senior wrote:
FuShengTHEGreat wrote:I find it laughable that posters here in this thread have labelled the 95 Rockets one of the weakest champions in recent memory. The best player that at worse played one of the top 5 peaks for any player ever......imho the GOAT individual run to a title.

Hakeem even outside of 94 & 95 showed in 1986 he was capable of leading a team to a deep playoff run (and in general stepping it up in the playoffs) so those b2b years in terms of calibre of play aren't anomalies.

Hakeem and Clyde as a duo were 32 & 33 years respectively with less than 2 months together that year before the playoffs. They had 0 room for enduring previous defeats/building any sort of cohesion that more lauded duos like West/Wilt, MJ & Pippen, Shaq/Kobe, LBJ/Wade had the luxury of growing from.

And their team ended up sweeping the Finals as the road underdog team......has never been done since the NBA/ABA merger. Only the 75 Warriors performed this rare feat.

Jordan/Magic & Bird won a combined 14 titles during this similar era and were never once able to sweep a NBA Finals even often with HCA.


The GOAT run to a title was the Lakers when they went 15-1.

I think I get it now. I think your hatred for Shaq stems for your love for Akeem. Is that what it is? Just because Shaq has double the titles and is higher on the GOAT list, you take that as a slight against Akeem.

Well, I understand. Hey, I still think Akeem was the best 2 way center of all time. Defense like Russell, offense like a smooth PF. But unfortunately, he wasn't able to dominate like Shaq!


:lol: Far from hatred my friend. I never said GOAT playoff run by a team. If you read closer I said GOAT individual run to a title by Olajuwon.

Why would I be angry at Shaq for? The pinnacle of Hakeem's career came against him.

The happiest moment of his professional basketball career was ironically the saddest and most painful of Shaq's professional NBA career. While he celebrated his 2nd consecutive Finals MVP at Shaq's expense, Shaq could be seen walking back to his locker room in tears.....the only time in his nba career.

Hakeem dominated the Utah Jazz in his career en route to titles....Shaq underachieved vs them, I think in that case it was better not to "dominate like Shaq".
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#668 » by Baski » Sat May 6, 2017 8:23 pm

jaypo wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Gary Payton and Scottie Pippen are the most overrated defenders in NBA history. Payton was not even the third-best defender on his team in his defensive peak of 1995-96. Pippen was only the best defender on a team he played for just once, 1994-95. He was never close to best defender in the NBA.


So a player nicknamed "the Glove" for his defensive prowess was not a great defender? Or a player dubbed by most NBA personalities as one of the best defenders in history (Pip)?

I'm not sure if you watched any of their games, but you're talking about 2 of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

My friend, without Pip's defense, MJ isn't the GOAT. Pip was doing most of the heavy lifting on defense during their tenure together.



No disagreement on Pippen, but the "The Glove" comment makes me think. I'm sure you have other reasons why you are confident in Payton's defensive prowess but i just wanted to point out that nicknames aren't always accurate. Just look at Mr. Big Shot and Steve Franchise for example.


On a related note, is there a thread on here where i could read about Payton's defensive impact?

I LOVE CARROT CAKE!!!!!!
The_Hater
GHOAT (Greatest Hater Of All Time)
Posts: 85,319
And1: 40,062
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: RE: Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#669 » by The_Hater » Sat May 6, 2017 8:43 pm

Baski wrote:
jaypo wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Gary Payton and Scottie Pippen are the most overrated defenders in NBA history. Payton was not even the third-best defender on his team in his defensive peak of 1995-96. Pippen was only the best defender on a team he played for just once, 1994-95. He was never close to best defender in the NBA.


So a player nicknamed "the Glove" for his defensive prowess was not a great defender? Or a player dubbed by most NBA personalities as one of the best defenders in history (Pip)?

I'm not sure if you watched any of their games, but you're talking about 2 of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

My friend, without Pip's defense, MJ isn't the GOAT. Pip was doing most of the heavy lifting on defense during their tenure together.



No disagreement on Pippen, but the "The Glove" comment makes me think. I'm sure you have other reasons why you are confident in Payton's defensive prowess but i just wanted to point out that nicknames aren't always accurate. Just look at Mr. Big Shot and Steve Franchise for example.


On a related note, is there a thread on here where i could read about Payton's defensive impact?

I LOVE CARROT CAKE!!!!!!


Ignoring personal biases, defensive stats and the eye test, the biggest endorsement a player will ever get on defense is from their contemporaries both players and coaches. If there's a universal opinion that Pippen and Payton were elite defenders from those in their own era, then chances are they were.
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,590
And1: 98,928
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: RE: Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#670 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 6, 2017 8:50 pm

Baski wrote:

No disagreement on Pippen, but the "The Glove" comment makes me think. I'm sure you have other reasons why you are confident in Payton's defensive prowess but i just wanted to point out that nicknames aren't always accurate. Just look at Mr. Big Shot and Steve Franchise for example.



Horry did hit a number of big shots. Not sure why you think his nickname is ill-fitting.

And Steve Francis just got the nickname because of how it fits his name. Not because anyone really thought he was a franchise level player.

I don't think either of those make the valid point you want to make--that a nickname isn't a good defense for someone being a good defender.

Of course I side on both Payton and Pippen--in particular Pippen--being elite defensive players. Someone itt tried to make the case that Pippen was the 3rd best defensive player on the Bulls. I can at least listen to that with a younger Jordan and Horace Grant tho I personally think Pippen was the best defender of that trio, but you can certainly make arguments for each of the other guys. I don't really see a good argument for the Bulls version of Rodman or post-retirement Jordan being better defenders than Pippen who imo was quite clearly the head of the snake on a team that dominated based on its defense.

edit saw that he said Pippen wasn't even 3rd best. Now I guess he'd take Ron Harper? Yeah a good solid defender and being the same size as the other 3 made his utility higher than his ability because of how they could switch literally everything. But its hard for me to believe someone really thinks that----which makes his post perfect for this thread I guess.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
The_Hater
GHOAT (Greatest Hater Of All Time)
Posts: 85,319
And1: 40,062
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: RE: Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#671 » by The_Hater » Sat May 6, 2017 8:56 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Baski wrote:

No disagreement on Pippen, but the "The Glove" comment makes me think. I'm sure you have other reasons why you are confident in Payton's defensive prowess but i just wanted to point out that nicknames aren't always accurate. Just look at Mr. Big Shot and Steve Franchise for example.



Horry did hit a number of big shots. Not sure why you think his nickname is ill-fitting.
.


Mr Big Shot is Billups. And his clutch stats are actually quite poor.
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
Xherdan 23
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,324
And1: 1,537
Joined: Apr 07, 2016
   

Re: RE: Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#672 » by Xherdan 23 » Sat May 6, 2017 8:57 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Horry did hit a number of big shots. Not sure why you think his nickname is ill-fitting.


Because Mr. Big Shot isn't Horry, it's Chauncey Billups's nickname.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut
Rich Michmond
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,766
And1: 3,101
Joined: Jan 24, 2013
Location: российско-немецкий кондоминиум под еврейским доверительным управлением

Re: RE: Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#673 » by Rich Michmond » Sat May 6, 2017 8:58 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Baski wrote:

No disagreement on Pippen, but the "The Glove" comment makes me think. I'm sure you have other reasons why you are confident in Payton's defensive prowess but i just wanted to point out that nicknames aren't always accurate. Just look at Mr. Big Shot and Steve Franchise for example.



Horry did hit a number of big shots. Not sure why you think his nickname is ill-fitting.



Mr. Big Shot is Billups' nickname and Chauncey's clutch reputation has got a touch overblown over the years.
Gordon Haywood, Dwayne Wade, JJ Reddick, Derek Rose, Derrick Fisher, Lenny Wilkins, Kirk Heinrich, Oscar Robinson, DeMar DeRozen, Andre Iguadola, Pascal Siakim, Malcolm Brogdan
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,590
And1: 98,928
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#674 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 6, 2017 8:59 pm

My bad. When I think of Big Shot I always think of Robert Horry. I certainly don't think of Billups.

Ignore me please. Except on Pippen's defense. Obviously I nailed that. :D
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
ShotCreator
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,825
And1: 2,537
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#675 » by ShotCreator » Sat May 6, 2017 9:09 pm

My post got misread/misinterpreted several times.

I never said anything about whether they were elite on defense, or even 'great', just never close to the best. And they were almost always on teams with better defenders than they were. How can they be considered some of the very best defenders in NBA history when they went season after season without being the most impactful defenders on their teams?

A past-prime '96 McMillan was almost definitely a better defender than any version of Payton. Let alone Kemp who was great all-around defender or Johnson who was a good rim protector.

I'm really not sure why Pippen would get so much credit for his great defense when Chicago did not miss him on that end in 1994, or 1998. In fact he missed nearly half of 1998 an they had stretches of statistical GOAT-level defense without him and still ended the season as close to the best defense in the league. 38 games without Pippen. I don't believe he was the cog of that team defensively at all. Offensively, Chicago slipped tremendously w/o him in 1998. There I think his impact would lie most.


lorak wrote:I would like to see evidence of Pippen's defensive impact.

Because data we have says his defensive impact wasn't too good:

with/without

1994 (10G missed) -0.8 drtg (so he improved drtg by 0.8)
1998 (38G missed) +3.9 drtg (so Bulls defense was worse by 3.9 with him in lineup)


nba.com data

drtg with Pippen on the floor vs team overall drtg
1997 98.9 vs 99.2 so positive impact
1998 99.8 vs 96.7 negative
1999 100.1 vs 100.1 neutral
2000 97.8 vs 97.7 negative
2001 99.6 vs 99.0 negative
2002 101.6 vs 101.0 negative
2003 97.2 vs 99.5 positive

b-r on/off team drtg

2001 +1.8 so negative impact
2002 +1.3 negative
2003 -4.4 positive

DRAPM

2002 +0.6 (72nd place, but that data is incomplete, for example Antoine Walker is the best defender in the NBA that year according to DRAPM)
2003 +0.9 (74th place)

Of course most of that data is end or past his prime but still - it tells consistent story: his defensive impact was close to neutral. However he looks the best in the years the closest o his peak: 1994 (slightly positive impact according to with/without) and 1997 ( -0.3 difference in that nba.com's data is pretty big deal, because of minutes he spend on the floor). So his peak impact seems as 1 drtg, maybe 1.5 drtg. Very good for a wing, but not as good as LeBron's, not to mention defensive anchors as KG or Duncan (4-6 drtg) and unlike LeBron, he could use hand checking :roll:



Spoiler:
lorak wrote:
Quotatious wrote: In RAPM, Pippen usually measured as a better offensive player


Not only better but MUCH better. Here's his rank among all players in ORAPM and DRAPM in available data points:

Code: Select all

YEAR   TYPE   ORAPM   DRAPM
1997   NPI   3   183
1998   NPI   17   251
1998   PI   10   153
1999   PI   14   170
1999   NPI   145   314
2000   NPI   87   109
2000   PI   37   124
2001   NPI   85   167
2002   PI   330   64
2002   NPI   277   118
2003   NPI   37   67
2003   PI   47   74
2004   PI   281   165
2004   NPI   413   389


When he missed games in 1994 and 1998 Bulls offense also improved A LOT with him, while his impact on defense was small (1994) or negative (1998). So the answer is pretty clear and as good as Pippen was on defensive end, he was still just perimeter player and that limited his defensive impact, while on offense he is underrated because of his poor shooting, when in reality he was outstanding offensive player, because of his playmaking and moving without ball.
Swinging for the fences.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,590
And1: 98,928
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#676 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 6, 2017 9:12 pm

I wonder why I am the only person who remembers Chicago's rotations during those years. Jordan always went out with the other starters and Pippen stayed in and played with the 2nd unit and then sat when Jordan and the other starters returned. So judging Pippen's defense by on/off numbers is a flawed approach without understanding the context of the numbers.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
ShotCreator
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,825
And1: 2,537
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#677 » by ShotCreator » Sat May 6, 2017 9:15 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I wonder why I am the only person who remembers Chicago's rotations during those years. Jordan always went out with the other starters and Pippen stayed in and played with the 2nd unit and then sat when Jordan and the other starters returned. So judging Pippen's defense by on/off numbers is a flawed approach without understanding the context of the numbers.

There's 1994. A year without Jordan entirely. And it's missed games Not on-court splits.
Swinging for the fences.
ThaRegul8r
Head Coach
Posts: 6,448
And1: 3,037
Joined: Jan 12, 2006
   

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#678 » by ThaRegul8r » Sat May 6, 2017 9:19 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:My bad. When I think of Big Shot I always think of Robert Horry. I certainly don't think of Billups.


Horry was "Big Shot Bob" (or "Rob" as he preferred, and I always respect what the player himself would like to be called)
Billups was "Mr. Big Shot"

Both had "Big Shot" in their nicknames
I remember your posts from the RPOY project, you consistently brought it. Please continue to do so, sir. This board needs guys like you to counteract ... worthless posters


Retirement isn’t the end of the road, but just a turn in the road. – Unknown
Johnlac1
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,326
And1: 1,605
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
 

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#679 » by Johnlac1 » Sat May 6, 2017 9:25 pm

PockyCandy wrote:Second time I've said about Durant, but after going over to the GB, I feel like saying some things about him:

1: It's extremely hypocritical of the media/casual fans to talk about how winning rings is the only thing that matters, but when Durant goes to GSW because he just wants rings, he's vilified for it. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, the only thing that matters is RINGGZZZZ right? No one ever said how you win the rings matters until this year.

2: I also seem to hear a lot about how Durant would get broken in half if he played during the 80's. To which I say, Gervin and English did just fine in that era. And for what it's worth, Durant would actually weigh more than any of Boston's famed front line of McHale Parish Bird.
Let's just say people would have a lot more respect for Durant if he went to another team, like say the Wizards, than the Warriors who had just won a title a year previously and were considered by many the best team in the league.
He basicallly joined a powerhouse. Few people are going to give as much respect to a player who does that rather than joining a weaker team and trying to beat the league's most powerful team.
Moreover, he left a team that a few years before had played in a finals and looked poised to get there again.
The whole thing just seemed bizarre.
It's his career, and he had the right to do what he thinks is best for him. But fans of the league like to see up and coming teams challenge the super teams. Durant would have won a lot more respect staying in OKC and beating GS than joining GS. Or joining another team besides the Cavs in the east. He would get just as criticized if he had joined the Cavs.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,590
And1: 98,928
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition] 

Post#680 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 6, 2017 10:35 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I wonder why I am the only person who remembers Chicago's rotations during those years. Jordan always went out with the other starters and Pippen stayed in and played with the 2nd unit and then sat when Jordan and the other starters returned. So judging Pippen's defense by on/off numbers is a flawed approach without understanding the context of the numbers.

There's 1994. A year without Jordan entirely. And it's missed games Not on-court splits.



Then why quote Lorak?
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.

Return to Player Comparisons