Only 2 Teams in entire NBA DON'T have a top 7 pick on the roster

vic · Post #1 » by **vic** » Thu May 4, 2017 4:02 pm

Detroit and Brooklyn

http://www.nba.com/pistons/features/rock-and-hard-place-pistons-aim-compete-without-top-5-pick-roster

I figured that's worth a discussion. Are the Pistons doomed?

Can they ever even push past mediocrity? Do they need a new coach to maximize their limited talent?

Or a GM that will trade for superstar talent? Who will even trade superstar talent to the Pistons?

vic · Post #2 » by **vic** » Thu May 4, 2017 4:11 pm

My initial thoughts:

1. In this type of situation you need to find foreign talent in the draft - that's the main way to find hidden gems (Ask San Antonio (Ginobli), Milwaukee (Giannis, Maker), Denver (Jokic,Nurkic).

Draft Underrated foreign league players. NCAA players have been marketed already and they slip past their talent level less often.

2. I don't think anybody's giving away superstars for anything the Pistons have got.

3. They need a coach with more than 1 play (1-5 pick & roll) that can maximize the talents of the 2(KCP), 3 (SJ), and 4(Tobias) who are in all honesty the most MENTALLY talented players they have.

RJ and Drummond are physical talents but they are useless when injured or unmotivated... I think the future of the team is on maximizing KCP/SJ/Tobias.

The Pistons need to find a coach that can do that ASAP. SVG completely bungled that job when he had the chance with Ish Smith this year. Ish had those guys playing great.

MotownMadness · Post #3 » by **MotownMadness** » Thu May 4, 2017 4:28 pm

Product of what happens when you don't bottom out in the NBA.

Billl · Post #4 » by **Billl** » Thu May 4, 2017 4:50 pm

eh - draft slot is pretty meaningless once you actually get to the NBA. The warriors won a title behind a 7th, 11th and second rounder.

We definitely need a star to compete though.

ChipButty · Post #5 » by **ChipButty** » Thu May 4, 2017 5:13 pm

It's official. We should have kept Moose!

vic · Post #6 » by **vic** » Thu May 4, 2017 5:21 pm

ChipButty wrote:It's official. We should have kept Moose!

or traded him for a top 6 talent at a different position

Kilo · Post #7 » by **Kilo** » Thu May 4, 2017 5:28 pm

Anthony Bennett was just cut by his Euroball team...

But don't worry, we're getting Lonzo Ball this year.

ImHeisenberg · Post #8 » by **ImHeisenberg** » Fri May 5, 2017 12:59 am

I think the pick position doesn't mean much. Brandon Knight was picked 7th, he's rotting in Phoenix now. There's plenty of top 7 picks that are out of the league. Anthony Bennett, Johnny Flynn, Joe Alexander- those are three off the top of my head. There are plenty more.

You could just as easily build a champion ship contender with guys picked at 8 or above. Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Devin Booker (d'oh!), Isaiah Thomas, Malcolm Brogdon (d'oh again!), Paul Milsap, Serge Ibaka and of course Giannis The Greek Freak and Khris Middleton (super dumars d'oh!)

Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

mattao313 · Post #9 » by **mattao313** » Fri May 5, 2017 1:21 am

ImHeisenberg wrote:Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

This narrative that people are push is ridiculous SVG had 2 first round picks. KCP lead the team in minutes in his second year in the league. Stanley averged 23 minutes a game as guess what? A ROOKIE. People were killing SVG cause Stanley was playing like pure ass yet was getting sixth man minutes. Now Ellenson wasn't part of the rotation now he doesn't play rookies.

IDK about his drafting he was the one that was looking at Booker in the first place you guys wanted Winslow. Kilo and Princeofpalace wanted Booker.

Pharaoh · Post #10 » by **Pharaoh** » Fri May 5, 2017 8:00 am

mattao313 wrote:
ImHeisenberg wrote:Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

This narrative that people are push is ridiculous SVG had 2 first round picks. KCP lead the team in minutes in his second year in the league. Stanley averged 23 minutes a game as guess what? A ROOKIE. People were killing SVG cause Stanley was playing like pure ass yet was getting sixth man minutes. Now Ellenson wasn't part of the rotation now he doesn't play rookies.

IDK about his drafting he was the one that was looking at Booker in the first place you guys wanted Winslow. Kilo and Princeofpalace wanted Booker.

FTR I admitted I didn't know enough about the prospects but supported the selection of SJ

And still do!

On this team, with these personalities? SJ needs to play big minutes regardless of if he's "earnt" it simply because he's one of the select few with the right mentality once the game begins

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

ImHeisenberg · Post #11 » by **ImHeisenberg** » Fri May 5, 2017 9:34 am

mattao313 wrote:
ImHeisenberg wrote:Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

This narrative that people are push is ridiculous SVG had 2 first round picks. KCP lead the team in minutes in his second year in the league. Stanley averged 23 minutes a game as guess what? A ROOKIE. People were killing SVG cause Stanley was playing like pure ass yet was getting sixth man minutes. Now Ellenson wasn't part of the rotation now he doesn't play rookies.

IDK about his drafting he was the one that was looking at Booker in the first place you guys wanted Winslow. Kilo and Princeofpalace wanted Booker.

KCP played big minutes because Meeks was hurt, and there wasn't a reasonable replacement beyond KCP.

Fair point on Johnson's minutes. But, I wasn't strictly referencing SVG's tenure in Detroit, you're just looking at the last couple seasons.

And, I wanted Booker as well. I'm sure you can literally find me writing on this board "I'm not upset we passed on Winslow, Booker is the one I think might haunt us."

BadMofoPimp · Post #12 » by **BadMofoPimp** » Fri May 5, 2017 1:26 pm

Well, I wouldn't be proud to brag about having any Anthony Bennets of the league on my team as a top 7 pick. In addition, many of those teams signed or traded for those top 7 players most of whom are busts and taking up roster spots as role players. I don't see anything about this top 7 statement to be anything to make a big deal about.

DBC10 · Post #13 » by **DBC10** » Fri May 5, 2017 9:16 pm

ImHeisenberg wrote:I think the pick position doesn't mean much. Brandon Knight was picked 7th, he's rotting in Phoenix now. There's plenty of top 7 picks that are out of the league. Anthony Bennett, Johnny Flynn, Joe Alexander- those are three off the top of my head. There are plenty more.

You could just as easily build a champion ship contender with guys picked at 8 or above. Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Devin Booker (d'oh!), Isaiah Thomas, Malcolm Brogdon (d'oh again!), Paul Milsap, Serge Ibaka and of course Giannis The Greek Freak and Khris Middleton (super dumars d'oh!)

Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

I think draft pick does matter, especially if you care about maximizing your BEST overall chances that you'll land a star and turning your franchise around. I think I saw a study somewhere on percentages of the potential boon/bust of top 5 picks in history, and it's concluded that it is better to have a top 5 pick for couple years rather than not. More all-stars came from top 5 pick range as well.

The Currys and Draymonds and Thompsons are anomalies, since they're all in the same exact team. I don't think we'll see such homegrown (aka continuity and developed) talents that wins a chip in a while. I mean even the Spurs had the number 1 pick along with hidden gems like the OP mentioned in European talents. You really have invest in multiple ways in finding talent.

BadMofoPimp · Post #14 » by **BadMofoPimp** » Fri May 5, 2017 9:57 pm

DBC10 wrote:
ImHeisenberg wrote:I think the pick position doesn't mean much. Brandon Knight was picked 7th, he's rotting in Phoenix now. There's plenty of top 7 picks that are out of the league. Anthony Bennett, Johnny Flynn, Joe Alexander- those are three off the top of my head. There are plenty more.

You could just as easily build a champion ship contender with guys picked at 8 or above. Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Devin Booker (d'oh!), Isaiah Thomas, Malcolm Brogdon (d'oh again!), Paul Milsap, Serge Ibaka and of course Giannis The Greek Freak and Khris Middleton (super dumars d'oh!)

Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

I think draft pick does matter, especially if you care about maximizing your BEST overall chances that you'll land a star and turning your franchise around. I think I saw a study somewhere on percentages of the potential boon/bust of top 5 picks in history, and it's concluded that it is better to have a top 5 pick for couple years rather than not. More all-stars came from top 5 pick range as well.

The Currys and Draymonds and Thompsons are anomalies, since they're all in the same exact team. I don't think we'll see such homegrown (aka continuity and developed) talents that wins a chip in a while. I mean even the Spurs had the number 1 pick along with hidden gems like the OP mentioned in European talents. You really have invest in multiple ways in finding talent.

And still most teams that tank for years on end for top 5 picks still suck arse.

DBC10 · Post #15 » by **DBC10** » Fri May 5, 2017 11:22 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
DBC10 wrote:
ImHeisenberg wrote:I think the pick position doesn't mean much. Brandon Knight was picked 7th, he's rotting in Phoenix now. There's plenty of top 7 picks that are out of the league. Anthony Bennett, Johnny Flynn, Joe Alexander- those are three off the top of my head. There are plenty more.

You could just as easily build a champion ship contender with guys picked at 8 or above. Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Devin Booker (d'oh!), Isaiah Thomas, Malcolm Brogdon (d'oh again!), Paul Milsap, Serge Ibaka and of course Giannis The Greek Freak and Khris Middleton (super dumars d'oh!)

Smart drafting and player development goes much further than just drafting at the top of the draft. The Pistons under SVG haven't drafted well, nor developed the players they have drafted. SVG has that Lawrence Frank mentality of "they should show up ready, or sit."

I think draft pick does matter, especially if you care about maximizing your BEST overall chances that you'll land a star and turning your franchise around. I think I saw a study somewhere on percentages of the potential boon/bust of top 5 picks in history, and it's concluded that it is better to have a top 5 pick for couple years rather than not. More all-stars came from top 5 pick range as well.

The Currys and Draymonds and Thompsons are anomalies, since they're all in the same exact team. I don't think we'll see such homegrown (aka continuity and developed) talents that wins a chip in a while. I mean even the Spurs had the number 1 pick along with hidden gems like the OP mentioned in European talents. You really have invest in multiple ways in finding talent.

And still most teams that tank for years on end for top 5 picks still suck arse.

Right. I'm just saying that if we're keeping all variables in contact, then your absolute best chance to land a star to turn around a franchise is having multiple top 5 picks. Just off of raw percentage wise.

whitehops · Post #16 » by **whitehops** » Sat May 6, 2017 12:29 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:And still most teams that tank for years on end for top 5 picks still suck arse.

it's tough for teams like that. even if they get talented players (top 5-8 players in the draft) every year they still have a young team. guys are drafted around 19-20 years old so they're like 7-8 years away from their primes and reasonably like 3-5 years away from being at the point where their games are somewhat refined. if your whole team is guys who don't have a complete skill set yet (weak off-hand, few go-to moves or counters, etc.) AND make frequent mental mistakes at the same time your team isn't going to be very good.

ElectricMayhem · Post #17 » by **ElectricMayhem** » Sat May 6, 2017 4:39 am

Billl wrote:eh - draft slot is pretty meaningless once you actually get to the NBA.

Not true at all! We were one of the best teams in the league with Kwame Brown.

BadMofoPimp · Post #18 » by **BadMofoPimp** » Sat May 6, 2017 9:06 pm

DBC10 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
DBC10 wrote:
I think draft pick does matter, especially if you care about maximizing your BEST overall chances that you'll land a star and turning your franchise around. I think I saw a study somewhere on percentages of the potential boon/bust of top 5 picks in history, and it's concluded that it is better to have a top 5 pick for couple years rather than not. More all-stars came from top 5 pick range as well.

The Currys and Draymonds and Thompsons are anomalies, since they're all in the same exact team. I don't think we'll see such homegrown (aka continuity and developed) talents that wins a chip in a while. I mean even the Spurs had the number 1 pick along with hidden gems like the OP mentioned in European talents. You really have invest in multiple ways in finding talent.

And still most teams that tank for years on end for top 5 picks still suck arse.

Right. I'm just saying that if we're keeping all variables in contact, then your absolute best chance to land a star to turn around a franchise is having multiple top 5 picks. Just off of raw percentage wise.

And, if history proves itself, most teams that tank end no better than teams that do not tank.

A solid smart GM does not need to tank. You develop winning teams, not win them in the lottery.

Montanabadboy · Post #19 » by **Montanabadboy** » Sun May 7, 2017 12:32 am

ElectricMayhem wrote:
Billl wrote:eh - draft slot is pretty meaningless once you actually get to the NBA.

Not true at all! We were one of the best teams in the league with Kwame Brown.

We didn't win any championships until we drafted Darko...just saying.

Post #20 » by **Snakebites** » Sun May 7, 2017 6:28 pm

Seems like a rather uninformative way of looking the manner in which teams are built.

Better question: How many top 10 teams have a top 7 pick they DRAFTED on their roster?

Cleveland (Lebron, Kyrie, Tristan), Boston (Smart), Toronto (J Val), OKC (Westbrook), Washington (Wall and Beal), Clippers (Griffin) off the top of my head. None of the top 3 teams (Golden State, San Antonio, Houston) do.

And with Boston it's Marcus Smart, who they'd be about as good without. With Toronto it's Jonas Valanjunas, who there's a lot of discussion about whether or not they should keep. So yeah, that leaves you with really only one true contender (Cleveland) and a few pretenders who have actually built their current rosters around their own lottery picks.

The 2004 and 2005 Pistons were positively aflush with top 7 picks, none of which they actually drafted. It's not an honest way of looking at the situation.

We need to acquire better players. I don't particularly care where they were drafted, and neither did Dumars when he traded for or signed Billups, Sheed, Dice, Rip.