The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

[Steelo Green]

the blow it up is about this forum, not the team.
Poor reading comprehension, another reason to blow up the forum

Eh, an aside is no different really.

[Johnny Bball]

Advanced stats paint a different picture. While he puts up numbers, he doesn't move the needle. DeMar is not nearly as talented as his AllStar peers. In fact, he's a definite negative on defense (50% of the time) and only passable when he has the ball in his hands on offense (34.3% or 34.3% of 50%[offense] = 17.2%). We were cruising when he was playing historically good basketball to begin the season and I fully believe that is precisely what needs to happen for him to actually improve our chances of winning, because he's less than 20% useful.

As for the Original article and premise of this thread, the point is to win. I love Masai and feel that he has done wonders for us, but without that top end talent, his efforts are futile. I would rather be Milwaukee that lost to Toronto, than Toronto, that [spoiler alert!:] advanced to lose to Cleveland. The only mistakes that Masai has made to date was overpaying for Carroll and not firing Casey upon arrival, following the loss to Brooklyn, following the Sweep by Washington or mid-season this year.

My point was Derozan is the player we could trade for the highest value package given his production + long-term nature of his deal. Everyone else on the team either hasn't proven themselves to that degree or are UFAs about to sign monster contracts (at a higher salary cap than when Derozan signed his).

Also, I disagree with your opinion on his effectiveness (outside of the defense comment). Derozan has holes in his game, sure, but he was a significant contributor (and often the most important one) in many of our wins this year. Trying to marginalize those contributions by factoring usage statistics based on incorrect interpretation of role and responsibility - he has an increased role on offense, decreased role on defense so it's not 50/50 - meanwhile completely ignoring the other ways he helps facilitate offense just isn't telling the real story.

I would rather have Giannis too. Easier said than done. My post was about alternatives. It's really easy to blame current players/coaches for past failures or blame Masai for past signings. It's much harder to look at the current roster with so many outgoing FA and chart a course to finding a superstar, especially if your plan is to let all those assets walk for nothing.

"Advanced stats show...." then list exactly no proof and just a complete random gorup of numbers as proof. At leats use netrtg or something.

Demar's contract is a complete steal at this point.

[Ell Curry]

If we can somehow get the Knicks to do something based around DeRozan (big guard well suited to triangle) for Porzingis, that would be a fine start. Even taking on Noah's horrific deal might not kill us since Masai has been historically great at getting rid of **** contracts. Maybe he could turn Noah into a shorter but still awful contract.

[tdot56]

Masai should be absolutely livid with this blowout performance against cavs... any other team in the playoffs would have done much better...anyone.. milwakee, Indiana....

Casey deserves to be fired for this.

[VanWest82]

Demar's contract is a complete steal at this point.

At worst it's fair value. But the question is what could we get for him if Masai decides to rebuild? Something like #3 + Deng feels about right (assuming Lakers are able to keep their pick) but why would they do that? Lakers are miles away from contention. Demar doesn't fit their timeline.

Demar needs to go to a team that's on the verge of being a playoff team or already is, but is in need of an upgrade/replacement of their lead scorer. Here are a few teams I could see him fitting in nicely:

Clips - he would pair wonderfully next to CP3 (allow him to play off ball more) and DJ (protects Demar defensively, recipient of a million Kobe assists). Surround them with shooters and you're in business.
Heat - similar situation to Clips with a PG who can play on/off ball and a defensive center to protect him.
Jazz - perfect replacement if they lose Hayward
Hawks - Schroder/DD/Millsap is a solid core

Problem is none of these teams really have the assets to make it worth our while. Maybe a dumb team like the Magic or Suns trick themselves into thinking they're close, and make us a godfather offer. But it just all seems so unlikely, which is why I think we bring the band back and try again.

[Scott Hall]

Masai should be absolutely livid with this blowout performance against cavs... any other team in the playoffs would have done much better...anyone.. milwakee, Indiana....

Casey deserves to be fired for this.

I think he will be (eg. **** Brooklyn)

I just hope he doesn't do anything to irrational like the Carroll and Cojo signings like when we got swept
by the Wizards

[Syd-TK3]

Masai still evaluating

Sent from my SGH-I337M using RealGM mobile app

[LiSTWithLani]

Advanced stats paint a different picture. While he puts up numbers, he doesn't move the needle. DeMar is not nearly as talented as his AllStar peers. In fact, he's a definite negative on defense (50% of the time) and only passable when he has the ball in his hands on offense (34.3% or 34.3% of 50%[offense] = 17.2%). We were cruising when he was playing historically good basketball to begin the season and I fully believe that is precisely what needs to happen for him to actually improve our chances of winning, because he's less than 20% useful.

As for the Original article and premise of this thread, the point is to win. I love Masai and feel that he has done wonders for us, but without that top end talent, his efforts are futile. I would rather be Milwaukee that lost to Toronto, than Toronto, that [spoiler alert!:] advanced to lose to Cleveland. The only mistakes that Masai has made to date was overpaying for Carroll and not firing Casey upon arrival, following the loss to Brooklyn, following the Sweep by Washington or mid-season this year.

My point was Derozan is the player we could trade for the highest value package given his production + long-term nature of his deal. Everyone else on the team either hasn't proven themselves to that degree or are UFAs about to sign monster contracts (at a higher salary cap than when Derozan signed his).

Also, I disagree with your opinion on his effectiveness (outside of the defense comment). Derozan has holes in his game, sure, but he was a significant contributor (and often the most important one) in many of our wins this year. Trying to marginalize those contributions by factoring usage statistics based on incorrect interpretation of role and responsibility - he has an increased role on offense, decreased role on defense so it's not 50/50 - meanwhile completely ignoring the other ways he helps facilitate offense just isn't telling the real story.

I would rather have Giannis too. Easier said than done. My post was about alternatives. It's really easy to blame current players/coaches for past failures or blame Masai for past signings. It's much harder to look at the current roster with so many outgoing FA and chart a course to finding a superstar, especially if your plan is to let all those assets walk for nothing.

"Advanced stats show...." then list exactly no proof and just a complete random gorup of numbers as proof. At leats use netrtg or something.

Demar's contract is a complete steal at this point.

I didn't think that I needed to validate that point. Hasn't it been discussed on the board in depth many times how he isn't an impressive player using advanced stats?
I'll just provide you with a link:
http://www.82games.com/1617/16TOR6.HTM

[Johnny Bball]

Advanced stats paint a different picture. While he puts up numbers, he doesn't move the needle. DeMar is not nearly as talented as his AllStar peers. In fact, he's a definite negative on defense (50% of the time) and only passable when he has the ball in his hands on offense (34.3% or 34.3% of 50%[offense] = 17.2%). We were cruising when he was playing historically good basketball to begin the season and I fully believe that is precisely what needs to happen for him to actually improve our chances of winning, because he's less than 20% useful

My point was Derozan is the player we could trade for the highest value package given his production + long-term nature of his deal. Everyone else on the team either hasn't proven themselves to that degree or are UFAs about to sign monster contracts (at a higher salary cap than when Derozan signed his).

Also, I disagree with your opinion on his effectiveness (outside of the defense comment). Derozan has holes in his game, sure, but he was a significant contributor (and often the most important one) in many of our wins this year. Trying to marginalize those contributions by factoring usage statistics based on incorrect interpretation of role and responsibility - he has an increased role on offense, decreased role on defense so it's not 50/50 - meanwhile completely ignoring the other ways he helps facilitate offense just isn't telling the real story.

I would rather have Giannis too. Easier said than done. My post was about alternatives. It's really easy to blame current players/coaches for past failures or blame Masai for past signings. It's much harder to look at the current roster with so many outgoing FA and chart a course to finding a superstar, especially if your plan is to let all those assets walk for nothing.

"Advanced stats show...." then list exactly no proof and just a complete random group of numbers as proof. At leats use netrtg or something.

Demar's contract is a complete steal at this point.

I didn't think that I needed to validate that point. Hasn't it been discussed on the board in depth many times how he isn't an impressive player using advanced stats?
I'll just provide you with a link:
http://www.82games.com/1617/16TOR6.HTM

Sorry you just gave me a link to a wall of stats, what exactly are you trying to show with that and how does it even relate to what you posted? Or is it just.... here have some stats! Guess I did have it right.

[lolwut]

Masai still evaluating

Sent from my SGH-I337M using RealGM mobile app

Evaluating Casey's severance package.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

If you aren't replacing Lowry with a player that is better than Derozan, blow it up. It's that simple.

Another observation: If your star player can't shoot 3s and want role players to shoot 3s - reality is you want Derozan to shoot 3s and a lot of them (and make a good %) in this current NBA. You can get role players that can shoot the 3 but you also need Derozan to hit each shooter with pin point passes and with good court vision - which he is average.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LiSTWithLani]

Advanced stats paint a different picture. While he puts up numbers, he doesn't move the needle. DeMar is not nearly as talented as his AllStar peers. In fact, he's a definite negative on defense (50% of the time) and only passable when he has the ball in his hands on offense (34.3% or 34.3% of 50%[offense] = 17.2%). We were cruising when he was playing historically good basketball to begin the season and I fully believe that is precisely what needs to happen for him to actually improve our chances of winning, because he's less than 20% useful

"Advanced stats show...." then list exactly no proof and just a complete random group of numbers as proof. At leats use netrtg or something.

Demar's contract is a complete steal at this point.

I didn't think that I needed to validate that point. Hasn't it been discussed on the board in depth many times how he isn't an impressive player using advanced stats?
I'll just provide you with a link:
http://www.82games.com/1617/16TOR6.HTM

Sorry you just gave me a link to a wall of stats, what exactly are you trying to show with that and how does it even relate to what you posted? Or is it just.... here have some stats! Guess I did have it right.

He has an eFG% of 47.7% (335th in the league)
His Net points per 100 possessions is -4.9
He overdribbles like crazy and is only assisted on 22% of his shots.
70% of his shots are jumpshots, where he makes eFG% of 43.4%
He is 91st in AST% at 20.4
He's 93rd in NetRTG at 3.3
He is 187th in TS% at 55.2%
He is 6th in USG% at 34.2%
He is 289th in PACE at 97.69%
He is 266th in REB% at 8.3%

If you want to break it down to only compare him with starting guards:
30th in OFFRTG
85th in DEFRTG
40th in NETRTG
61st in AST%
108th in AST/TO
134th in AST Ratio
26th in REB%
36th in TO Ratio
107th in EFG%
66th in TS%
3rd in USG%
99th in PACE
9th in PIE

In the playoffs this year:
PER 16.9
TS% 53.3
3PAr 8.6
FTr 45.7
TRB% 8.0
AST% 17.1
STL% 1.9
BLK% 0.0
TOV% 10.6
USG% 29.6
WS/48 .064
OBPM -1.2
DBPM 0.1
BPM -1.1
VORP 0.1
He was a -17.3 On-Off per 100 possessions


How do you look at those numbers and conclude that this is a maximum salaried player?

[gpoon]

i dont know why there is so much hate surrounding Demar, he was clearly our best play for MOST of the playoffs without him the Raptors could barley score. Im in for a SEMI blow up but not a complete rebuild, Demar should be our cornerstone imagine how good Toronto would be if we had some decent 3 point shooters... Demar drive and kick would be deadly, no one on this roster can consistently hit a 3. I think Demar and Norm should be our cornerstone and everyone else should be expendable... that being said i dont think we should dump players for future assets only for other players that will make us better. Ive watched **** raptors ball for way too long and i am enjoying these consecutive playoff appearances, I will not watch ball if the raptors become a bottom team for the next 4-5 years... Lets be real, no team outside Cavs and Dubs are going to win it all this year does that mean every team should blow up their roster? lets just enjoy this ride as our team has never been this good.

[tdotrep2]

Well what's the goal, 50 wins and hope we don't run into the Cavs until late or be complete garbage and hope we draft a superstar to build around. Those are your two options throw all this analytic **** out the window you still need a superstar to win in this BS league. Look at the rockets... They probably get swept by the warriors and lose in 5-6 vs the Cavs

[Harold_and_Kumar]

I didn't think that I needed to validate that point. Hasn't it been discussed on the board in depth many times how he isn't an impressive player using advanced stats?
I'll just provide you with a link:
http://www.82games.com/1617/16TOR6.HTM

Sorry you just gave me a link to a wall of stats, what exactly are you trying to show with that and how does it even relate to what you posted? Or is it just.... here have some stats! Guess I did have it right.

He has an eFG% of 47.7% (335th in the league)
His Net points per 100 possessions is -4.9
He overdribbles like crazy and is only assisted on 22% of his shots.
70% of his shots are jumpshots, where he makes eFG% of 43.4%
He is 91st in AST% at 20.4
He's 93rd in NetRTG at 3.3
He is 187th in TS% at 55.2%
He is 6th in USG% at 34.2%
He is 289th in PACE at 97.69%
He is 266th in REB% at 8.3%

If you want to break it down to only compare him with starting guards:
30th in OFFRTG
85th in DEFRTG
40th in NETRTG
61st in AST%
108th in AST/TO
134th in AST Ratio
26th in REB%
36th in TO Ratio
107th in EFG%
66th in TS%
3rd in USG%
99th in PACE
9th in PIE

In the playoffs this year:
PER 16.9
TS% 53.3
3PAr 8.6
FTr 45.7
TRB% 8.0
AST% 17.1
STL% 1.9
BLK% 0.0
TOV% 10.6
USG% 29.6
WS/48 .064
OBPM -1.2
DBPM 0.1
BPM -1.1
VORP 0.1
He was a -17.3 On-Off per 100 possessions


How do you look at those numbers and conclude that this is a maximum salaried player?

LOL. This, and man, it's even worse than I thought.

It's likely not a good idea to build around a player this flawed and who doesn't have an elite skill to break a defense and effectively just gets iced out of the game. Suffice to say, and it should be obvious, but this is not good.

It's one thing to say it's all on the fault of role players - but that's why they're role players. They're not meant to be, or paid like Demar is. He's a max money guy and must be able to get guys wide open shots if he's iced out. Sadly, as the stats and eye test show, his court vision just isn't good enough to make up for his lack of elite first step and inconsistent shooting. To add to this, he's not even a net zero at the other end of the floor because he's a hot mess defensively, compounding our problems.

So while no, he didn't lose us the series and was our one offensive weapon without Lowry, and our role players didn't play very well, he still has to shoulder some of the blame and we must question whether he's worth building around if we don't have Lowry. For me, this is a HARD NO.

[CoachJReturns]

If we can somehow get the Knicks to do something based around DeRozan (big guard well suited to triangle) for Porzingis, that would be a fine start. Even taking on Noah's horrific deal might not kill us since Masai has been historically great at getting rid of **** contracts. Maybe he could turn Noah into a shorter but still awful contract.

I like where this is going. I don't see us being able to move Noah though. So if you don't want to just bite the bullet on those 3 years, then this isn't the best idea. I want a rebuild though, so I'm down for a DeMar for Porzingis trade. He'd at least fans someone to follow while the team has it's struggles. That's usually the hardest part about a rebuild: Having absolutely nothing to be excited about when the team has no talented young players.

[Johnny Bball]

I didn't think that I needed to validate that point. Hasn't it been discussed on the board in depth many times how he isn't an impressive player using advanced stats?
I'll just provide you with a link:
http://www.82games.com/1617/16TOR6.HTM

Sorry you just gave me a link to a wall of stats, what exactly are you trying to show with that and how does it even relate to what you posted? Or is it just.... here have some stats! Guess I did have it right.

He has an eFG% of 47.7% (335th in the league)
His Net points per 100 possessions is -4.9
He overdribbles like crazy and is only assisted on 22% of his shots.
70% of his shots are jumpshots, where he makes eFG% of 43.4%
He is 91st in AST% at 20.4
He's 93rd in NetRTG at 3.3
He is 187th in TS% at 55.2%
He is 6th in USG% at 34.2%
He is 289th in PACE at 97.69%
He is 266th in REB% at 8.3%

If you want to break it down to only compare him with starting guards:
30th in OFFRTG
85th in DEFRTG
40th in NETRTG
61st in AST%
108th in AST/TO
134th in AST Ratio
26th in REB%
36th in TO Ratio
107th in EFG%
66th in TS%
3rd in USG%
99th in PACE
9th in PIE

In the playoffs this year:
PER 16.9
TS% 53.3
3PAr 8.6
FTr 45.7
TRB% 8.0
AST% 17.1
STL% 1.9
BLK% 0.0
TOV% 10.6
USG% 29.6
WS/48 .064
OBPM -1.2
DBPM 0.1
BPM -1.1
VORP 0.1
He was a -17.3 On-Off per 100 possessions


How do you look at those numbers and conclude that this is a maximum salaried player?

He wasn't a minus 17.3 per 100 in the regular season numbers and you Just inc,used it again with no proof, which was the premise of your fist post. We've had to go 3 posts to get to a legit number. But that on off number is not on your link, it' wasn't part of your original post. Derozan is NOT a maximum salaried playr. Not last year, not this year. Dude... if you're going to hate, just pick any of the holes in his game that are legit that already exist.

No wonder people think it's worse than they thought. They don't even check, they are just happy to hear it.

And btw, when we have one of the best benchs in the league (at least before the playoffs!) that can skew on/off ratings and it's just out of context. There are a number of teams that we see the same thing.

And btw 2, eFG% doesn't include free throws so it's pretty much cherry picking if you're not using TS%.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

If we can somehow get the Knicks to do something based around DeRozan (big guard well suited to triangle) for Porzingis, that would be a fine start. Even taking on Noah's horrific deal might not kill us since Masai has been historically great at getting rid of **** contracts. Maybe he could turn Noah into a shorter but still awful contract.

I like where this is going. I don't see us being able to move Noah though. So if you don't want to just bite the bullet on those 3 years, then this isn't the best idea. I want a rebuild though, so I'm down for a DeMar for Porzingis trade. He'd at least fans someone to follow while the team has it's struggles. That's usually the hardest part about a rebuild: Having absolutely nothing to be excited about when the team has no talented young players.

well maybe NO would want to trade AD for Derozan to balance that lineup out. LOL

i could only wish.

hypothetical: if you get AD, do you keep Lowry? and Ibaka? trade JV.

[Ell Curry]

If we can somehow get the Knicks to do something based around DeRozan (big guard well suited to triangle) for Porzingis, that would be a fine start. Even taking on Noah's horrific deal might not kill us since Masai has been historically great at getting rid of **** contracts. Maybe he could turn Noah into a shorter but still awful contract.

I like where this is going. I don't see us being able to move Noah though. So if you don't want to just bite the bullet on those 3 years, then this isn't the best idea. I want a rebuild though, so I'm down for a DeMar for Porzingis trade. He'd at least fans someone to follow while the team has it's struggles. That's usually the hardest part about a rebuild: Having absolutely nothing to be excited about when the team has no talented young players.

well maybe NO would want to trade AD for Derozan to balance that lineup out. LOL

i could only wish.

hypothetical: if you get AD, do you keep Lowry? and Ibaka? trade JV.

Too good to be true, but:

AD and Asik and Ajinca's terrible contract for DeRozan, JV, Cory Joseph, the 23rd pick, 2019 unprotected 1st then we just bring back everyone else:

Ibaka-Poeltl
AD-Patterson
Tucker-Carroll
Powell-Wright
Lowry-VanVleet

and in NO:

Boogie-JV
SoloHill-Boogie
MLE-Pondexter
DeRozan-Moore
Jrue-CoryJoseph

I don't think that New Orleans team could play D, but Boogie with Demar and Jrue in the backcourt makes some sense (probably just in the regular season though) and they can just focus on adding 3 and D wings with their own picks and now 2 extra 1st rounders, who they could immediately trade to get a decent young forward like a Dekker, or maybe spend the MLE on a guy like Ingles.

[Drop Shot]

Lmao O'Connor used a quote from Dr. Positivity



https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500