2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I've already explained my motive. I'll do it again.

1. I personally enjoyed watching AI way more and PERSONALLY would take him over IT.

2. I saw the IT bashing and talks about how he didn't even have a top 10 season this year, wasn't in MVP discussion, wasn't a star etc. That made me think... hey wait a minute. Another little man won an MVP with similar stats on WAY less efficiency and is hailed as some untouchable legend. Where is the disconnect?

[Ruzious]

Before anyone else says anthing comparing IT in any way to MJ, please factor in the effects of rule changes. Or consider just not ever comparing them in any way.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I actually haven't compared the efficiency of Iverson and MJ. You keep trying to do that to deflect from me pointing out the absurdity of your premise. I'm comparing the efficiency of IT and MJ and using your exact argument and criteria from your IT/Iverson comparison.

Its cool that you are of the opinion that IT is a better scorer than prime MJ. You should start a thread for that too so you can spread the light of knowledge even further than this thread has.

You actually did. You substituted Jordan for Iverson in the argument as if that somehow has the same validity of Iverson vs IT. Using an extreme example and still falling short doesn't help your argument at all, it hurts it. Also just like I never said IT is a better player than Iverson in general, it will take more from IT than one slightly more efficient season than peak Jordan to call him a better scorer. Until he can do it for what 15 years+ years, I won't claim that.

What I WILL claim is that for one very specific season, IT was better than Iverson's best season.

Wow, you are incredibly dense and you are trying way to hard to skew the narrative. I ABSOLUTELY did not compare Iverson and MJ. I made a direct comparison between MJ/IT and never once mentioned Iverson or anything related to him (you should be able to quote me if I did). You are trying to compare Iverson and MJ as a counter to my argument to make your point look less absurd. The fact that you think anything thats been said in the last few pages has helped your argument, or hurt mine, is pretty adorable.

I'm seriously done responding now. I thought this thread had rightfully died. If you guys want to keep up it up then knock yourselves out.

It's not that difficult. You used my own argument of IT vs Iverson, substituted Jordan in there and tried to illustrate how foolish the argument was. I'm explaining how fallacious your reasoning was. You changed the argument entirely and strawmanned it. The argument was IT had a better season than Iverson. It wasn't based ENTIRELY on offensive efficiency, although that's the main premise with these players specifically.

Iverson didn't have Jordan's defense, rebounding and all around floor game to make up the gap with IT. You took one perfectly valid comparison and changed it. Multiple moderators whom you probably respect more than me even chimed in on the comparison and took part in the discussion. Not that it means much in itself, but if my post was so outrageous or insane I highly doubt it would of led to so many pages of debate. Not to mention while the poll isn't close, IT has 30% of the vote despite the fact that I guarantee you most of the votes for Iverson didn't actually read my specific claim here. That can be deduced by the responses I've gotten comparing legacy etc when I NEVER once did that.

[jonjames]

Ppl are jaded by IT stats this season..his season is clearly better than any of AI seasons and if we're going strictly off scoring stats only its comparable to jordan..that's not to say they are comparable as players but it just shows how historic of season hes having that's unfortunatelty overshadowed by 2 other historic seasons in the same year.

[Braggins]

I don't understand why mentally you guys have a huge issue separating a 1 season comparison from body of work or career standing. NOBODY arguing for IT is comparing ANYONE career wise, legacy wise or even saying IT is a better player generally speaking.

This isn't entirely true. You compared one season of IT to another players entire career. So to say that career is not part of the discussion is wrong. Iverson's entire career is part of the discussion. You literally said this IT season, which is his peak so far, is better than any season of Iverson's, which is implying that IT's peak is superior to Iversons. I'm not sure about others, but I haven't actually used the straw man of accusing anyone of comparing legacy's or IT's career vs Iverson's career. I've strictly kept my focus on this one season for IT.

Not trying to continue discussion and I'm really done posting after this one. Just had to clarify that.

[Louie_Ruckuz]

I've already explained my motive. I'll do it again.

1. I personally enjoyed watching AI way more and PERSONALLY would take him over IT.

2. I saw the IT bashing and talks about how he didn't even have a top 10 season this year, wasn't in MVP discussion, wasn't a star etc. That made me think... hey wait a minute. Another little man won an MVP with similar stats on WAY less efficiency and is hailed as some untouchable legend. Where is the disconnect?

Who said that? He's top 5 in MVP

[OkcSinceSGA]

I don't understand why mentally you guys have a huge issue separating a 1 season comparison from body of work or career standing. NOBODY arguing for IT is comparing ANYONE career wise, legacy wise or even saying IT is a better player generally speaking.

This isn't entirely true. You compared one season of IT to another players entire career. So to say that career is not part of the discussion is wrong. Iverson's entire career is part of the discussion. You literally said this IT season, which is his peak so far, is better than any season of Iverson's, which is implying that IT's peak is superior to Iversons. I'm not sure about others, but I haven't actually used the straw man of accusing anyone of comparing legacy's or IT's career vs Iverson's career. I've strictly kept my focus on this one season for IT.

Not trying to continue discussion and I'm really done posting after this one. Just had to clarify that.

I'm using 1 peak season each. Career OUTSIDE of that 1 season each should be entirely left out and not weighed. So yes, you're correct in that respect. Peak season vs peak season IT had the better year.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I've already explained my motive. I'll do it again.

1. I personally enjoyed watching AI way more and PERSONALLY would take him over IT.

2. I saw the IT bashing and talks about how he didn't even have a top 10 season this year, wasn't in MVP discussion, wasn't a star etc. That made me think... hey wait a minute. Another little man won an MVP with similar stats on WAY less efficiency and is hailed as some untouchable legend. Where is the disconnect?

Who said that? He's top 5 in MVP

More people than not in the MVP threads and "Is Isaiah a superstar thread?".

[RaptorRed]

I don't understand why mentally you guys have a huge issue separating a 1 season comparison from body of work or career standing. NOBODY arguing for IT is comparing ANYONE career wise, legacy wise or even saying IT is a better player generally speaking.

This isn't entirely true. You compared one season of IT to another players entire career. So to say that career is not part of the discussion is wrong. Iverson's entire career is part of the discussion. You literally said this IT season, which is his peak so far, is better than any season of Iverson's, which is implying that IT's peak is superior to Iversons. I'm not sure about others, but I haven't actually used the straw man of accusing anyone of comparing legacy's or IT's career vs Iverson's career. I've strictly kept my focus on this one season for IT.

Not trying to continue discussion and I'm really done posting after this one. Just had to clarify that.

I'm using 1 peak season each. Career OUTSIDE of that 1 season each should be entirely left out and not weighed. So yes, you're correct in that respect. Peak season vs peak season IT had the better year.

But if you had to choose which peak season player to have on your team you would choose iverson correct ?

[joeyAdaMan]

I've already explained my motive. I'll do it again.

1. I personally enjoyed watching AI way more and PERSONALLY would take him over IT.

2. I saw the IT bashing and talks about how he didn't even have a top 10 season this year, wasn't in MVP discussion, wasn't a star etc. That made me think... hey wait a minute. Another little man won an MVP with similar stats on WAY less efficiency and is hailed as some untouchable legend. Where is the disconnect?

the disconnect is you haven't used ANY context...all you want everyone to do is look at IT's +8 in TS% and say "wow, this dude is right. IT is better than AI!"....there is no arguing the numbers and you already knew that....but, if you really watched AI and are a fan like you claim to be, then you'd know he played in a DRASTICALLY different league...he also played on a team that was offensively inept outside of him......the team Thomas is playing on is better and the league he's playing in favors perimeter players...Thomas is awesome..special even...likely the best sub 6-0 ft player ever and will always get overlooked because of it..but AI was clearly better....come on now...

[Louie_Ruckuz]

I've already explained my motive. I'll do it again.

1. I personally enjoyed watching AI way more and PERSONALLY would take him over IT.

2. I saw the IT bashing and talks about how he didn't even have a top 10 season this year, wasn't in MVP discussion, wasn't a star etc. That made me think... hey wait a minute. Another little man won an MVP with similar stats on WAY less efficiency and is hailed as some untouchable legend. Where is the disconnect?

Who said that? He's top 5 in MVP

More people than not in the MVP threads and "Is Isaiah a superstar thread?".

Probably people are just hating on him. I'm a die hard Lakers fan but that dude Thomas is legit!

[OkcSinceSGA]

This isn't entirely true. You compared one season of IT to another players entire career. So to say that career is not part of the discussion is wrong. Iverson's entire career is part of the discussion. You literally said this IT season, which is his peak so far, is better than any season of Iverson's, which is implying that IT's peak is superior to Iversons. I'm not sure about others, but I haven't actually used the straw man of accusing anyone of comparing legacy's or IT's career vs Iverson's career. I've strictly kept my focus on this one season for IT.

Not trying to continue discussion and I'm really done posting after this one. Just had to clarify that.

I'm using 1 peak season each. Career OUTSIDE of that 1 season each should be entirely left out and not weighed. So yes, you're correct in that respect. Peak season vs peak season IT had the better year.

But if you had to choose which peak season player to have on your team you would choose iverson correct ?

I promise I'm not trying to dodge your question when I say it depends entirely on team makeup. If the player is in a James Harden situation where it's one elite scorer with a bunch of role players, I'm taking Iverson. If it's a team with multiple 20 ppg threats I'm taking IT all day because of his playmaking and he doesn't use nearly as many possessions or shots.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I've already explained my motive. I'll do it again.

1. I personally enjoyed watching AI way more and PERSONALLY would take him over IT.

2. I saw the IT bashing and talks about how he didn't even have a top 10 season this year, wasn't in MVP discussion, wasn't a star etc. That made me think... hey wait a minute. Another little man won an MVP with similar stats on WAY less efficiency and is hailed as some untouchable legend. Where is the disconnect?

the disconnect is you haven't used ANY context...all you want everyone to do is look at IT's +8 in TS% and say "wow, this dude is right. IT is better than AI!"....there is no arguing the numbers and you already knew that....but, if you really watched AI and are a fan like you claim to be, then you'd know he played in a DRASTICALLY different league...he also played on a team that was offensively inept outside of him......the team Thomas is playing on is better and the league he's playing in favors perimeter players...Thomas is awesome..special even...likely the best sub 6-0 ft player ever and will always get overlooked because of it..but AI was clearly better....come on now...

I understand. Which is why I'm not saying in general IT was a better player. But rather that in this one, single season he was superior to Iverson's best year offensively. I didn't say it's in a landslide either.

PS. It's a lot more than TS%. It's pretty much every metric.

[RaptorRed]

I'm using 1 peak season each. Career OUTSIDE of that 1 season each should be entirely left out and not weighed. So yes, you're correct in that respect. Peak season vs peak season IT had the better year.

But if you had to choose which peak season player to have on your team you would choose iverson correct ?

I promise I'm not trying to dodge your question when I say it depends entirely on team makeup. If the player is in a James Harden situation where it's one elite scorer with a bunch of role players, I'm taking Iverson. If it's a team with multiple 20 ppg threats I'm taking IT all day because of his playmaking and he doesn't use nearly as many possessions or shots.

And if you don't know the team makeup ? you are building a team and you have to pick one of them to start without knowing who the others will be

[OkcSinceSGA]

But if you had to choose which peak season player to have on your team you would choose iverson correct ?

I promise I'm not trying to dodge your question when I say it depends entirely on team makeup. If the player is in a James Harden situation where it's one elite scorer with a bunch of role players, I'm taking Iverson. If it's a team with multiple 20 ppg threats I'm taking IT all day because of his playmaking and he doesn't use nearly as many possessions or shots.

And if you don't know the team makeup ? you are building a team and you have to pick one of them to start without knowing who the others will be

Iverson, but that's based on sample size mostly. I know Iverson will consistently do what he did for 10+ years. I have no way to know if this season from IT is a one time deal or what. If you guarantee me IT will play at this level 10 years in a row, I'd take him over Iverson probably. Which again is why I've explained I wouldn't in my right mind compare them longer than 1 season.

[slothrop8]

Before anyone else says anthing comparing IT in any way to MJ, please factor in the effects of rule changes. Or consider just not ever comparing them in any way.

You don't really have to factor in rules changes. You need only factor in what was the overall offensive environment in which the production occurred and how valuable was the production within the context of that environment. Rules are just one of a vast number of interconnected variables that determine how relatively easy or relatively difficult it is to score (or do whatever) in a given environment. For scoring, all you really need is the league Points Per Possession expectation and the league TS% to be able to get a pretty good idea of how valuable an individual's production was in the context of their environment.

I see the Orioles logo in your profile - I don't know whether you spend anytime with advanced baseball stats - but if you do - think of it like ERA+ or OPS+ - where you basically adjust the raw OPS or raw ERA for league and park averages and have a pretty good tool to compare individual season impact (in those two metrics) across eras. You'd want to layer in some standard deviation to get really precise - but something like an ERA+ gives you a good tool to comare say Pedro Martinez' ERA in the height of the juiced player era in 2000 to Bob Gibson's in the near deadball era with higher mounds in 1968.

[Dnt hate]

Before anyone else says anthing comparing IT in any way to MJ AND ANYONE ELSE IN ANY ERA INCLUDING IVERSON, please factor in the effects of rule changes. Or consider just not ever comparing them in any way. I love thomas' game especially cuz of his idea and similarities to Iverson, so haters need to stfu already on realgm with their dumb opinions

[calibanPK]

All l


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[papidulo]

If Isaiah Thomas had to deal with the handchecking AI did, he wouldn't be a starter.

If you give Iverson Avery Bradley for Eric Snow, Al Horford for Derrick Coleman, and Jae Crowder for Aaron Mckie, AI may have a ring.

The celts would be lucky to beat the Wizards in 7

[OkcSinceSGA]

If Isaiah Thomas had to deal with the handchecking AI did, he wouldn't be a starter.

If you give Iverson Avery Bradley for Eric Snow, Al Horford for Derrick Coleman, and Jae Crowder for Aaron Mckie, AI may have a ring.

The celts would be lucky to beat the Wizards in 7

Against the 01 Lakers almost nobody would have a ring. Also IT does have to deal with handchecking. It's a myth that it's banned. I see it 100 times a game and refs almost never call it.