Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[andrewww]

Gona have to be honest here, Lebron's very much the Floyd Mayweather of basketball.

Is he insanely talented? No doubt.

Have all his "impressive" wins been against opponents who were past their prime or very fortunate (and dare I say league manufactured circumstances where they were all too happy to lend a helping hand)?

-2007 Pistons were on their last legs. CWebb started for them.
-2012 Celtics were on their last legs too.
-2013 Finals he really should have lost (while being objective here he wasn't at fault for 2014)
-2016 Finals are we going to pretend he didnt pull a bush league move to get Green suspended in game 5. then the phantom foul trouble on Curry to extend the series to a game 7?

[GetBuLLish]

Nope, wanted to narrow down the argument, which I did.

So you're going to judge players based on championships, which means judging players is dependent on who they have around them and what the team is doing. In James' case, he's screwed either way? Either he teams up and you chastise the value of the title OR he stays there and loses and you say he's not a winner? It creates an undue burden on a player where your evaluation relies on outside factors of luck + roster construction + coaching + injuries to other players + ownership's willingness to spend that are all well beyond a player's control.

You are getting further and further away from the actual point of the discussion. Intentionally or unintentionally.

And I've yet to see someone answer my hypothetical. Probably because you guys know it disproves your stance.

[HomoSapien]

Is anyone here faulting him for leaving the Cavs?

Several posts ago, he was discredited for taking the easy road out. Joining Wade and Bosh is easy apparently, but playing with Love and Irving is still the hard route, right?

Ok.

You need to reread the thread. No one is criticizing him for leaving Cleveland specifically. He's being criticized for joining two top 10 players.

[andrewww]

It's not the same thing at all.

2010: LeBron leaves team via free agency to join up with an elite guard and a premier big man. Forms a Big 3 and goes onto consecutive Finals appearances.

2014: LeBron leaves team via free agency to join up with an elite guard and a premier big man. Forms a Big 3 and goes onto consecutive Finals appearances.

Seems the same to me. The process of parity is challenged. The only difference is Wade is better than Irving. That's the only thing, and you're ok with that for some reason, despite the rest of the process being exactly the same.

I'd make the argument that Kyrie Irving for all his flaws is elite at a few aspects that fits perfectly with what Lebron isnt elite at.

[kingkirk]

1. He left a better team to go to a worse team.

They were worse because he left Cleveland and forced them to rebuild. Of course they were going to be worse.

2. Staying in Miami would've been the easier road.

Nope. He went to the Finals with the Heat in 2014, did the same with the Cavs the next season. Had he stayed in Miami, he'd be playing with the geriatic version of Wade and Bosh who isn't even in the league, instead of a prime Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love.

3. Irving and Love are extremely talented, but they aren't elite players who could likely win rings on their own.

Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh were better. Neither were winning a ring alone.

[HomoSapien]

It's not the same thing at all.

2010: LeBron leaves team via free agency to join up with an elite guard and a premier big man. Forms a Big 3 and goes onto consecutive Finals appearances.

2014: LeBron leaves team via free agency to join up with an elite guard and a premier big man. Forms a Big 3 and goes onto consecutive Finals appearances.

Seems the same to me. The process of parity is challenged. The only difference is Wade is better than Irving. That's the only thing, and you're ok with that for some reason, despite the rest of the process being exactly the same.

Wade is better than Irving and Kevin Love was considered a career loser. You're seeing the issue as the same because you mistakenly think the issue is whether or not he is allowed to leave his team.

[DanTown8587]

Let's simplify the argument.

Are all championships equal?

In a highly nuanced argument "how good is LeBron James"? etc? It's impossible (literally) to have blanket values on titles.

I'll tell you this: Michael Jordan never beat a team as good as the Warriors were last year so is more tiles greater than quality? Let's hypothetically say James win the title this year, meaning TWICE he beat what teams said was either one of the greatest teams of all time (16 Warriors) AND a team so unfair that they broke the league (17 Warriors) in terms of "being fun". Is winning those two titles a greater accomplishment than any number of titles Jordan has?

[HomoSapien]

Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh were better. Neither were winning a ring alone.

A prime Wade wasn't capable of winning a ring on his own? What?

[GetBuLLish]

This is what Durant said was going through his head when he contemplated joining the Warriors this past summer:

"I was just like a kid, like, in a candy shop,” Durant remembered thinking. “I’d get wide open 3s, I could just run up and down the court, get wide open layups. I was basically begging him. I was like, yo, this would be nice. So as I was thinking about my decision and who I was gonna play for, this team came to mind.

Apparently no one is supposed to have any issue with this even though we are talking about...competition.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/nba/la-sp-kevin-durant-warriors-20161011-snap-story.html

[kingkirk]

A prime Wade wasn't capable of winning a ring on his own? What?

You said Irving and Love are extremely talented, but they aren't elite players who could likely win rings on their own. You also said everyone needs another star to win a ring.

So if prime Wade is on his own, like Irving and Love were, how can he win a ring alone if you've already said everyone needs another star?

[HomoSapien]

Let's simplify the argument.

Are all championships equal?

In a highly nuanced argument "how good is LeBron James"? etc? It's impossible (literally) to have blanket values on titles?

Great, this is a highly nuanced argument so it sounds like we agree.

I'll tell you this: Michael Jordan never beat a team as good as the Warriors were last year.

And I would agree with you on that.

I'll say this:

LeBron's championships with the Heat = two of the least impressive rings ever, and to lose in the finals with that core is pretty embarrassing.

LeBron's championship with the Cavs = one of the most impressive championships ever.

[kingkirk]

Wade is better than Irving and Kevin Love was considered a career loser. You're seeing the issue as the same because you mistakenly think the issue is whether or not he is allowed to leave his team.

No, I'm pointing out to you that the act was the same thing: he colluded with players to form a super team, thus reducing parity and competition, which has been your problem with it all along.

What you're saying is LeBron joining Miami is bad because it killed competition but LeBron joining the Cavs in 2014 isn't bad because it didn't kill competition, despite the Cavs rocketing to the top of the East immediately.

That makes no sense and is inconsistent, again.

[HomoSapien]

A prime Wade wasn't capable of winning a ring on his own? What?

You said Irving and Love are extremely talented, but they aren't elite players who could likely win rings on their own. You also said everyone needs another star to win a ring.

So if prime Wade is on his own, like Irving and Love were, how can he win a ring alone if you've already said everyone needs another star?

You're getting way too semantic heavy here.

Let me clean it up for your benefit:

Dwayne Wade was capable of winning a championship as the main man. He did it in 2006. He had help. But he was the main man.

Irving and Love don't appear to be capable of winning a ring as the main man.

[kingkirk]

You're getting way too semantic heavy here.

Let me clean it up for your benefit:

Dwayne Wade was capable of winning a championship as the main man. He did it in 2006. He had help. But he was the main man.

Irving and Love don't appear to be capable of winning a ring as the main man.

I literally quoted your own words, but ok.

[HomoSapien]

Wade is better than Irving and Kevin Love was considered a career loser. You're seeing the issue as the same because you mistakenly think the issue is whether or not he is allowed to leave his team.

No, I'm pointing out to you that the act was the same thing: he colluded with players to form a super team, thus reducing parity and competition, which has been your problem with it all along.

What you're saying is LeBron joining Miami is bad because it killed competition but LeBron joining the Cavs in 2014 isn't bad because it didn't kill competition, despite the Cavs rocketing to the top of the East immediately.

That makes no sense and is inconsistent, again.

Mark, in all fairness we're going to keep going in circles since you place no value in competition. Truly one of the most bizarre comments I've seen on a sports forum.

LeBron joining the Heat is bad for his legacy because he circumvented competition. LeBron re-joining the Cavs isn't the same, because Love and Irving weren't guys who had ever been to the playoffs.

[DanTown8587]

Nope, wanted to narrow down the argument, which I did.

So you're going to judge players based on championships, which means judging players is dependent on who they have around them and what the team is doing. In James' case, he's screwed either way? Either he teams up and you chastise the value of the title OR he stays there and loses and you say he's not a winner? It creates an undue burden on a player where your evaluation relies on outside factors of luck + roster construction + coaching + injuries to other players + ownership's willingness to spend that are all well beyond a player's control.

You are getting further and further away from the actual point of the discussion. Intentionally or unintentionally.

And I've yet to see someone answer my hypothetical. Probably because you guys know it disproves your stance.

Two people answered your hypothetical: it's a completely different scenario if a collection of players take drastically less than their market values to "team up" and play on a team than three guys taking their max deals that they'd get on 29 other teams.

This entire argument reminds me of the line from a Few Good Men

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

Because here is your assertion of James if he stayed in Cleveland

Second, if he stayed in Cleveland and never won a championship, then of course that would negatively affect his legacy.

So by your own words, his legacy is impacted by not winning titles. So he goes to win titles somewhere else because it can't happen in Cleveland and then...it impacts his legacy to win titles?

[HomoSapien]

You're getting way too semantic heavy here.

Let me clean it up for your benefit:

Dwayne Wade was capable of winning a championship as the main man. He did it in 2006. He had help. But he was the main man.

Irving and Love don't appear to be capable of winning a ring as the main man.

I literally quoted your own words, but ok.

You quoted my words, but were unable to grasp the meaning of the words.

Obviously, I'm not saying Wade and 12 scrubs could win a championship. Let's at least try to have an honest discussion rather than trying to one-up each other.

[kingkirk]

Mark, in all fairness we're going to keep going in circles since you place no value in competition. Truly one of the most bizarre comments I've seen on a sports forum.

LeBron joining the Heat is bad for his legacy because he circumvented competition. LeBron re-joining the Cavs isn't the same, because Love and Irving weren't guys who had ever been to the playoffs.

Maybe it is. But at least it's not littered with double standards and inconsistencies.

[HomoSapien]

Mark, in all fairness we're going to keep going in circles since you place no value in competition. Truly one of the most bizarre comments I've seen on a sports forum.

LeBron joining the Heat is bad for his legacy because he circumvented competition. LeBron re-joining the Cavs isn't the same, because Love and Irving weren't guys who had ever been to the playoffs.

Maybe it is. But at least it's not littered with double standards and inconsistencies.

It's littered with something far worse.

[DanTown8587]

Let's simplify the argument.

Are all championships equal?

In a highly nuanced argument "how good is LeBron James"? etc? It's impossible (literally) to have blanket values on titles?

Great, this is a highly nuanced argument so it sounds like we agree.

I'll tell you this: Michael Jordan never beat a team as good as the Warriors were last year.

And I would agree with you on that.

I'll say this:

LeBron's championships with the Heat = two of the least impressive rings ever, and to lose in the finals with that core is pretty embarrassing.

LeBron's championship with the Cavs = one of the most impressive championships ever.

It's mind boggling to me that LeBron going to Miami is seen as a slap in the face to competition but LeBron going to a team with two of the previous three #1 overall picks (one of which was traded for a guy as good if not better than Bosh was at the time of him going to Miami) is somehow completely different.